Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
This universe needs a warhammer to the face anyway...if not as much as the warhammerverse.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Suggestion:
[] The memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. It's not doing Hijiri any good right now anyway. If she gives it up as a show of good faith, then we can help her find a solution to this mess.
- Location
- Your Native Universe
She definitely had the ability to spy on them without them noticing in canon. It's how she learned that the Pleiades were creating Kazumi. I'm not exactly sure if it extends to telepathy, but I definitely wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
Please don't bully the universe. It tries its best.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Saki, chew her out for condoning Niko's behavior.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
[x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to get Saki's hand off your shoulder. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
[x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in.
[x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri. That was totally unacceptable for so many reasons.
-[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
-[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
[x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
[x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
[x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
[x] State that, if all else fails, you'll offer Hijiri sanctuary. She's not the first traumatized refugee you'll be sheltering.
[x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
[x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to get Saki's hand off your shoulder. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
[x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in.
[x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri. That was totally unacceptable for so many reasons.
-[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
-[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
[x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
[x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
[x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
[x] State that, if all else fails, you'll offer Hijiri sanctuary. She's not the first traumatized refugee you'll be sheltering.
[x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
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Hypervene
Feelin' Some Sort Of Way
- Location
- Liminal
[X] Calm down Sabrina. Alright, let's do this.
[X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
[X]Hypervene Intervene. Get Sayaka's help if necessary.
[X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
[X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
- [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
It's easier to argue than agree in the moment. They need a mediator to help them calm down and talk this through.
- [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister.
- [X] The memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. It's not doing Hijiri any good right now anyway. If she gives it up as a show of good faith, then we can help her find a solution to this mess.
[X] Cleanse.
[X] Mediate. Rephrase their sentences to each other so nothing is lost in shouted translation.
- [X] No hitting. Hitting is bad, so make sure they don't hit each other.
- [X] Let them explain themselves. Gotta understand each other to agree or compromise, y'know?
[X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. That's mean. Hijiri is terrified. And look, we look like we're ganging up on her.
Heyyyy, is this a voting party? Can I join in? Here's my vote, sans all the mean sounding stuff!
[X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
[X]
[X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
[X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
- [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
It's easier to argue than agree in the moment. They need a mediator to help them calm down and talk this through.
- [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister.
- [X] The memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. It's not doing Hijiri any good right now anyway. If she gives it up as a show of good faith, then we can help her find a solution to this mess.
[X] Cleanse.
[X] Mediate. Rephrase their sentences to each other so nothing is lost in shouted translation.
- [X] No hitting. Hitting is bad, so make sure they don't hit each other.
- [X] Let them explain themselves. Gotta understand each other to agree or compromise, y'know?
[X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. That's mean. Hijiri is terrified. And look, we look like we're ganging up on her.
Heyyyy, is this a voting party? Can I join in? Here's my vote, sans all the mean sounding stuff!
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
There's another possibility to consider: In the last update Hijiri consistantly phrases things like she's downplaying her involvement with Anri Yuuri before thinking better of it. (The shift from "she-" to "we" when talking about raiding the house for example.)
Still, if you want to see it, I'd suggest start naming her Airi in telepathy and seeing if Hijiri slips up.
"Collateral" in this case would probably be something from our grief storage. A bar of gold most likely. Which, as much as I joke about it earlier, is still really valuable in it's own right, (and as such valuable to Hijiri, if not as something we'd see her using right here and now) and also something valuable in that we'd want it back.
Really however, I'd put it as any option we can use to tip the scales in case just talking her out of it doesn't work. (So if you have better ideas of what would be something that might convince Hijiri to give up the memory field, I absolutely welcome and invite them.)
A fair point. Will put some thought into how to write or poach a fix for that.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
Minor tonal change
[X] Keep your anger as contained as you can manage.
[X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
[X] Intervene. Get Sayaka's help if necessary.
[X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
[X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
- [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
- [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She's our detainee, and she has rights. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister, for better or for worse.
- [X] Offer the two of them a choice, you can have someone mediate this discussion civilly, or skip straight to the questioning.
[X] The Memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. We'd like it if Hijiri could just drop the thing, since it's useless to her now anyway.
[X] Cleanse.
[X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. We aren't her friend, but we'll be her defense lawyer if need be.
[X] Keep your anger as contained as you can manage.
[X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
[X] Intervene. Get Sayaka's help if necessary.
[X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
[X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
- [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
- [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She's our detainee, and she has rights. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister, for better or for worse.
- [X] Offer the two of them a choice, you can have someone mediate this discussion civilly, or skip straight to the questioning.
[X] The Memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. We'd like it if Hijiri could just drop the thing, since it's useless to her now anyway.
[X] Cleanse.
[X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. We aren't her friend, but we'll be her defense lawyer if need be.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think, in order to legitimize our actions, and keep up our chances of solving this instead of creating further problems, we need to be less harsh with the Pleiades. They live inside a culture where it's not OK to intervene in someone else's problem, and we're doing just that. And we don't want to trigger bad reactions.
[ ] Simultaneously:
-[ ] Saki, Kazumi: Niko's behavior is not OK. They, as friends, should be stopping her.
-[ ] Sayaka: The situation's getting out of control. Be ready, just in case.
-[ ] Shrug off Saki's hand; if she makes a threatening move, use the Fog for cover.
(We don't want to use magic against Saki from the get go. That might trigger a bad response. Also, quick dealing with other Pleiades first, then Niko?)
[ ] Let some of your conflict show and call out Niko on her shit.
-[ ] Separate them physically with the Fog if necessary.
(Mmm... don't go too far into talking about ourselves, our Wish. Focus is on the Kannas.)
[ ] Demand Hijiri be treated humanely, as she's her own human being, with her own life and feelings.
-[ ] Ask Hijiri to drop the Memory Field (put it away if she does), it's not helping her.
-[ ] We want to help both of them, if they give us the chance. It's what we do.
[ ] Try and give both Kanna's perspective on each other's feelings.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
It's less about "We're actually going to do this" and more about signaling, expectations, and reassurance.
- It signals to Hijiri that we are very committed to our ideals and what we say.
- It signals to Niko that we really do disapprove of her actions that much.
- It provides a safety net that will undo a lot of the fear and anger and tension that're making this go badly, thereby improving the chances of us not needing to actually use the offer later. Hijiri and Niko are both terrified that Hijiri won't be able to live a peaceful life. By giving them insurance we let them focus on actually working it out without fear. If you're presented with a student that's having trouble at school because they're stressed out about the possibility of failing a test, would you try to help them by putting them on probation so they fail out if they can't focus?
I was thinking more of "casually slip away from her using the utility fog to keep her grasp from catching", not "force her away". IIRC we already tried to shrug her hand off; getting rid of her is going to require some force. Better that that force be invisible and require no change to body language on our part - we want to be out of her reach before she realizes what's going on.
Yes, quickly dealing with the Pleiades. We can multitask like crazy. Moving to Hijiri's side and getting Niko away from her are happening at the same time, and those are pretty important as leads. It's also important that we get Niko away from Hijiri now, and that we do so in a way that's unrelated to the actual events - we need to break her out of the back-and-forth by giving her something new.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Too angry and hostile. This is more likely to start a new shouting match than to calm the current one.
Muramasa
Best Girl
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
We can't actually move closer, though, so it's hard to even convey that, beyond using words...
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I've said this before, but I think it's better to say "it's not only Niko I'm worried about," because we are worried about both of them, and it's important to convey that when we're talking to Niko's friends if we don't want them to turn against us.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Can't get Niko out of the field any other way - we can't pull her away physically, that'd start a fight on the spot, and we can't try to involve ourselves in the argument. So what we do is we bark something like "Niko! Gem cleansing! Move back now so I can do it.", and we do it battlefield-command style, ultimate authority, in hopes that she just obeys without thinking about it. That gives us the opening we need for the rest of it.
For the others, just juggernaut over them. The goal here is to not give them a chance to respond until we're entirely done, and we can absolutely do that. Also, the desired emotion here is shame, and you need at least some tone to make that work perfectly. There's a huge difference between "You're a fucking idiot" and "I'm disappointed."
Yeah. Internet's dying right now I might take some time to get to it.
We need to shift from this whole "everyone standing around her looking in" thing to someone standing on her side. Maybe not two feet away from here, but with her at our side or back instead of facing her.
edit:
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Saki, chew her out for condoning Niko's behavior.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
[x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to get Saki's hand off your shoulder. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
[x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in.
[x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri. That was totally unacceptable for so many reasons.
-[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
-[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
[x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
[x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
[x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
[x] Reiterate your promise of a peaceful life - if all else fails, Hijiri wouldn't be the first refugee seeking peace in Mitakihara. Better solutions exist, but even in the worst case you can and will deliver.
[x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Niko isn't a trained soldier. She doesn't have those instincts. And we're not her commander, Kazumi is. Maybe she could get results with that approach, but we're not likely to.
Anyway, that's not what your vote is doing. It's "excoriating" Niko, which is going to make her turn her anger towards us and make the rest of the Pleiades instinctively turn on us to defend her.
If you want to deescalate things, then talk to her calmly and evenly. Coax her away from Hijiri. Yelling at her will not help. It'll only breed more yelling and more anger.
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- Location
- Earth
I am so disappointed I don't even know what to say at this point...
[x] Godwinson
[x] Godwinson
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Coaxing isn't going to work, thread bleed means we can't use anything that depends on a calm tone. What we can do is control our anger.
If you think that "excoriate" necessitates yelling and shouting, I guess you don't get much opportunity to actually tear people new assholes. Being heated is the worst possible technique. I'm going for something more like "coldly furious disapproval". The desired result here is shame, crushing and overwhelming shame that doesn't give them a chance to muster the will to fight back. We need to not be heated, I agree. But trying to "coax" Niko isn't going to fucking work, she won't even hear us.
Niko absolutely does have those instincts; they're baked into human cognition at such a low level that even the words you use barely matter. Training improves the precision with which those orders can be applied, it provides a common language that survives the process better, but the behavior itself is universal. The exploitation of that circuit is taught across every major discipline that has to interact with the public in stressful situations - police, medics, firefighters, traffic directors, incident response staff in technical positions, managers and safety officers in factories, people that manage crowds at events, you can use it on anyone.
And who her "commander" is doesn't matter. The entire point of the command voice is that anyone can give those orders, and one of the core points of the training you were talking about is to permit the recipient of those orders to act with enough remaining oversight to filter invalid orders out. Plus leadership isn't formalized like you think it is; for this purpose, Mami and Sabrina have almost as much power as Kazumi does by dint of greater presence.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
[x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to slip out of Saki's grasp and walk away. Take care not to let the situation escalate physically. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
[x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in. Enlist Mami's voice if necessary.
[x] Tone: Coldly furious disapproval. This is not okay.
[x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri.
-[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
-[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
[x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
[x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
[x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
[x] Reiterate your promise of a peaceful life - if all else fails, Hijiri wouldn't be the first refugee seeking peace in Mitakihara. Better solutions exist, but even in the worst case you can and will deliver.
[x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Vebyast's vote seems to be more... productive, I think would be a good word for it, use of anger. For one thing, it doesn't make us seem like Roose Bolton, because seriously?
Either way.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
[x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to slip out of Saki's grasp and walk away. Take care not to let the situation escalate physically. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
[x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in. Enlist Mami's voice if necessary.
[x] Tone: Coldly furious disapproval. This is not okay.
[x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri.
-[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
-[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
[x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
[x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
[x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
[x] Reiterate your promise of a peaceful life - if all else fails, Hijiri wouldn't be the first refugee seeking peace in Mitakihara. Better solutions exist, but even in the worst case you can and will deliver.
[x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
Either way.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
[x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to slip out of Saki's grasp and walk away. Take care not to let the situation escalate physically. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
[x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in. Enlist Mami's voice if necessary.
[x] Tone: Coldly furious disapproval. This is not okay.
[x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri.
-[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
-[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
[x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
[x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
[x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
[x] Reiterate your promise of a peaceful life - if all else fails, Hijiri wouldn't be the first refugee seeking peace in Mitakihara. Better solutions exist, but even in the worst case you can and will deliver.
[x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
So much tendency to go full Wulfenbach-ing. I mean, Niko's actions are not acceptable, true, but running roughshod over everyone... =\
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I've been doing security work for more than a decade. An authoritative tone can sometimes get results, but I can tell you from experience that it does not work on people who are irrational or upset. They just get more angrier and more confrontational.