That's basically asking the manager of a nuclear plant to not turn the thing on and instead just throw the rods into a pool because we said so. Kyubey is trying to get as much power as possible in as little time as possible, petty morality be damned. the method you suggested is vastly less efficient and would produce less power. There are a whole bunch of other problems with it but I have to get to class right now so I'll get into it later.
I don't think you understand the point I'm making at all.

To put it in simple words as possible: Kyuubey does not believe we can get him more Grief than by following the Witch System.

Then, Kyuubey won't help us change the system, because for him, changing the system means a reduction in profits.

Then, we can't work with Kyuubey until such a time we can prove we can make a system that is more beneficial to him.

Is this clear enough? Can you stop addressing the example as if it was the point?
 
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Working with him requires it, for anything where we rely on the information he provides, where the results actually matter.
No, it really doesn't. For the most part, it just involves sharing some info about what we're experimenting with and researching (not everything, but the stuff that isn't dangerous for him to know--which is stuff we should only be researching in timestop or under privacy spheres anyway), and maybe asking for his insight into certain things.

I mean, we're not going to ask him whether or not trying out X is safe, because chances are he himself has no idea. He's never seen anyone with our powers before, after all. And he doesn't tell you something is possible when he knows for a fact that it isn't. Him telling Kyouko that it might be possible to turn Oktavia back into Sayaka was deceptive in that, while doing it might be possible, it was virtually impossible that anything Kyouko could try would work.

Trust, but verify is a thing that exists and that we should use whenever we can.

Assuming that someone else is going to betray you, using any means possible, and is always trying to manipulate you, regardless of much evidence there is to the contrary, is stupid. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful. It means that you shouldn't be absurdly paranoid.

We've already seen how far Kyubey is willing to go when presented with a motherlode of a Witch (and Wish). The reason Kyubey came across as so threatening in PMMM is because all of the characters were emotionally fragile, frequently isolated, and they were all facing an overwhelming threat in the form of Walpurgisnacht that they needed every bit of help they could get to survive. Thus, even a small degree of manipulation or lying by omission was sufficient to tip the scales, provided the girls made major mistakes on their own.

Generally, the things we have asked him about and will ask him about involve things that are difficult to impossible to find out otherwise, and things that our own safety and security do not rely on. And he knows that if he burns us once, we're never trusting him again. But we're never going to trust him far enough to stake our or our friends' safety on it.

Remember what he said? "They simply fail to ask the right questions." In other words, if you're careful about what you ask and ask enough questions, he'll give you useful information. Even when he refuses to answer, he's pretty obvious about it.

Kyubey is, ultimately, capable of doing far more harm and damage than he is actually doing, and he doesn't do it even when presented with something extremely enticing.

Being wary of him is fine. Being aggressively, insanely paranoid about him is a very foolish mistake, because it drives him to treating you like an obstacle or a problem, rather than someone who is potentially very, very useful.
 
I don't think you understand the point I'm making at all.

To put it in simple words as possible: Kyuubey does not believe we can get him more Grief than by following the Witch System.

Then, Kyuubey won't help us change the system, because for him, changing the system means a reduction in profits.

Then, we can't work with Kyuubey until such a time we can prove we can make a system that is more beneficial to him.

Is this clear enough? Can you stop addressing the example as if it was the point?
We don't need to wait that long. So long as we display/state our intent to improve the system by researching Grief and Magic with our unique powers to discover some way to improve efficiency, Kyubey might see us as more valuable than a Madoka contract.

And we've already shown some promise. Creating our own Barrier. Creating our own complex Grief Constructs (which opens up all sorts of research possibilities). Our studies into Grief Seeds and Soul Gems. Trying to hijack a Familiar. Experimenting with extending our range by combining our magic with Mami's, effectively combining Grief and magic.

You are also wrong that changing the system means a reduction in profits for Kyubey. So long as we show promise at making the system more efficient or more productive, we are enticing to him, rather than a hindrance.

Besides, there's really nothing we can do, besides a Madoka Wish, that can truly change the system beyond the reach of Earth.
 
On the other hand, how is asking him for scientific data possibly harmful? Unless we abandon the scientific method and just take what he tells us as unabridged fact, we'll just be getting a set of axioms to work with when crafting hypotheses.
 
Put me down for not spilling the witchbomb at the very first meeting with someone, thanks.

[x] The Phoenixian

(I disagree strongly enough with that point of @Vebyast 's to not vote for him in case it spills over, even though his vote doesn't actually contain it.)

That said, I'd appreciate it if people could stop arguing that QB can be our friend/partner/whatever. I'm not really happy with the standing vote in @The Phoenixian 's draft either.

We haven't demonstrated any kind of ability that makes us even a tiny fraction as valuable to QB's utility function as Madoka contracting and witching out is, and until we do so, it will do everything it is permitted to do to make Madoka contract - which means killing or witching out all of her friends, and thus our friends.
 
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While I generally agree with the thrust of SaltyWaffles and co.'s arguments (and good Grief this argument has been brought up so many times and is FINALLY gaining traction), in this particular instance Nadia is likely to be more helpful than Kyuubey, simply because Kyuubey restricts the information about other magical girls they give out. Ask them second.

I will note that it is perfectly reasonable to distrust voters in certain issues and that affecting reasoning on certain in-quest decisions - as long as its explicitly stated. Otherwise it's poisonous.

I'll also note that it's not unreasonable to assume that Hitommy might deduce the Witchbomb, largely because I'm fairly sure Mami already has (and is repressing it). There's one particular update... Unfortunately I'm not really able to locate it at the moment though I'll find it later if people push for it.
 
[X] Introduce self and group and goals. Explain why magical girl life sucks. No witchbombing. Open honesty besides that. Reassure that we're not putting Hitomi in any added danger. Explain why normal friends are so important for magical girls, emotional instability is dangerous. Explain soul gems, how most don't know, and finding out is very dangerous because of emotions and grief.
-[X] Offer to explain to her husband at the same time?
[X] Overall tone: responsible young woman in a dangerous field, doing her best to protect those around her. Sharing information because it's the right thing to do, and because Hitomi and Madoka are Sayaka's friends, so she needs their support, and they still need their parents' support.
[X] Rely on Mami to fill in blanks that you don't want to lie about.

Because this way we make sure Haruka knows that emotionally troubling news can kill magical girls, so if somehow she is able to pluck how witches are formed out of thin air, she'll keep quiet about it.
 
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[x] Godwinson

Some sanity. Yes, please.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Sep 23, 2017 at 4:51 AM, finished with 125345 posts and 48 votes.

  • [X] Lead in: Give her the impression of someone who's responsible and concerned for our friends, but friendly.
    [X]Points to clear up early on.
    -[X] Find out more about Haruka's relationship with magic in the past.
    -[X] Ask why she brought this up.
    -[X] Give her a chance to get her husband involved, if that's what she wants.
    [X] Conversational goals in rough order of priority.
    -[X] Leave Haruka well inclined to us.
    -[X] Give her cause to realize that Hitomi is safe without overemphasizing it.
    -[X] Give Haruka what she wants out of this conversation.
    -[X] Fill Haruka in, as appropriate. (and safe)
    -[X] Acquire Haruka's support as an adult we can count on.
    [x] Vote in abeyance.
    [X] Find out the status of Tsuchiya Ritsuko from Kyuubey, later.
    [X] Introduce self and group and goals. Explain why magical girl life sucks. No witchbombing. Open honesty besides that. Reassure that we're not putting Hitomi in any added danger. Explain why normal friends are so important for magical girls, emotional instability is dangerous. Explain soul gems, how most don't know, and finding out is very dangerous because of emotions and grief.
    -[X] Offer to explain to her husband at the same time?
    [X] Overall tone: responsible young woman in a dangerous field, doing her best to protect those around her. Sharing information because it's the right thing to do, and because Hitomi and Madoka are Sayaka's friends, so she needs their support, and they still need their parents' support.
    [X] Rely on Mami to fill in blanks that you don't want to lie about.
    [x] Thank Haruka for breaking the ice.
    [x] Give Mami an opening in case she wants to leave. Homework would work.
    [x] Ask Haruka if she wants her family in here for the explanation.
    [x] Explain the magical girl system.
    -[x] Set up safety nets against infohazards.
    [x] Explain your plans for fixing it and keeping everyone safe.
    [x] Acquire recruits.
    [X] Offer your condolences. Tsuchiya Ritsuko is almost certainly dead, or she would be famous by now for living so long.
    -[X] As far as we know, Hitomi is not a potential. We've involved her at all to prevent exactly Mrs. Shizuki just described.
    [X] Mami has homework, ask if Mrs. Shizuki is opposed to the content of the conversation so far being "public" so Mami has a response to "what was that about?" You'd like to give Mrs. Shizuki the broad strokes of the current situation, go over w. Mami what you're expecting to talk about -- none of it is anything she's unaware of. If you tackle these separately now, you can spend more time together later, yeah?
    [X] Explain briefly: the masquerade, soul gems (lichbomb + need for grief seeds), Walpurgisnacht, your powers, the expected influx of meguca.
    -[X] Disaster insurance might not be a bad idea.
    [X] Sober up. This is serious, yet good.
    -[X] Step 1: Invite
    --[X] Confirm her suspicions
    --[X] Offer to explain as best as you can.
    --[X] Warn that some topics are sensitive, and why
    -[X] Step 2: Inform
    --[X] Besides the obvious dangers (fighting witches), being a magical girl has hidden dangers, and we want to dissuade Contracts.
    --[X] Segue to Hitomi not being a potential, and explain the first hidden danger: "Grief" is literal.
    ---[X] Subtly apologize to Mami, and explain that you've been planning to tell adults about magic for many reasons, this foremost.
    --[X] Connect the resource-management of Grief to Witches, and the second hidden danger: Scarcity.
    --[X] Lead into our powers (and those of the team)
    --[X] Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Step 3: Inspire
    --[X] Discuss what we want to accomplish once the immediate problems are resolved.
    --[X] Make sure to stay away from the Lichbomb, Witchbomb, etc.
    ---[X] ...but try and set up an opportunity to talk with her in a context where we can discuss them (and other heavy topics).
    [x] Yeah, your friend either got eaten, murdered, or suffered literally soul crushing despair.
    [x] Null
 
[x] Thank Haruka for breaking the ice.
[x] Give Mami an opening in case she wants to leave. Homework would work.
[x] Ask Haruka if she wants her family in here for the explanation.

[x] Explain the magical girl system.
-[x] Set up safety nets against infohazards.
[x] Explain your plans for fixing it and keeping everyone safe.
[x] Acquire recruits.

This was never on the table for this upcoming vote and doing it like that would be fucking dumb. Editing it into my vote after the fact would be so mind-bogglingly stupid that I am slightly insulted that you thought that I would even consider doing that.
 
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Unless I'm misreading something, this is what I'm voting for with some details added, so... more votes good?

[X] Godwinson
 
[x] Thank Haruka for breaking the ice.
[x] Give Mami an opening in case she wants to leave. Homework would work.
[x] Ask Haruka if she wants her family in here for the explanation.

[x] Explain the magical girl system.
-[x] Set up safety nets against infohazards.
[x] Explain your plans for fixing it and keeping everyone safe.
[x] Acquire recruits.

This was never on the table for this upcoming vote and doing it like that would be fucking dumb. Editing it into my vote after the fact would be so mind-bogglingly stupid that I am slightly insulted that you thought that I would even consider doing that.
I don't even want it on the table for future votes for tonight.
 
[X] Godwinson

We can witchbomb her later if necessary. But for right now, all she needs to know is why and how magical girls are locked into a hunter state. Not even any gathering!
 
Right, so Godwinson has quickly surpassed me. Good, I can take my time to properly think about this.

[X] Introduce self and group and goals. Explain why magical girl life sucks. No witchbombing. Open honesty besides that. Reassure that we're not putting Hitomi in any added danger. Explain why normal friends are so important for magical girls, emotional instability is dangerous. Explain soul gems, how most don't know, and finding out is very dangerous because of emotions and grief.
-[X] Offer to explain to her husband at the same time?
[X] Overall tone: responsible young woman in a dangerous field, doing her best to protect those around her. Sharing information because it's the right thing to do, and because Hitomi and Madoka are Sayaka's friends, so she needs their support, and they still need their parents' support.
[X] Rely on Mami to fill in blanks that you don't want to lie about.

Because this way we make sure Haruka knows that emotionally troubling news can kill magical girls, so if somehow she is able to pluck how witches are formed out of thin air, she'll keep quiet about it.
Right, a lot of this is... significantly more in your face than I'm happy with. We're painting ourselves

Honestly, the more I read and hear arguments presented in the thread, the more I think we're all making a massive number of assumptions. While there's less massive fallout as a result, I don't think insta-lichbomb is good in it's own right, even if it's not witchbombing. I don't think instant "hardships of magical girls" is necessarily a safe idea.

Even beyond all the ideas floating around about what Haruka knows and how, I'm already worried that we're focusing too much on the utility we can acquire from Haruka, and not enough on forging a proper understanding with her. (and I'll not that I am emphatically not better than anyone else here.)

Especially with a note Firn made in the discord:

It's easy to guess with a strongly cynical outlook - and you generally get that when the friend who wanted you to watch it just starts doing the evil cackling routine.
Which would imply that leading Haruka into cynicism could lead to negative consequences. Even with the wichbomb defused I'm worrying that treating this like a "fill in the newbie" operation is, well, dangerous.

I've gotten the idea that we ran into a sudden boss battle before, and as such I'm getting kinda inclined to split it up into phases. (At the very spending some time learning about Haruka and her relationship with magic, before talking going and figuring out what we want to ask of her.)

Like, just, "chop the front off my vote and post it on its own" sort of thing.
 
Right, so Godwinson has quickly surpassed me. Good, I can take my time to properly think about this.


Right, a lot of this is... significantly more in your face than I'm happy with. We're painting ourselves

Honestly, the more I read and hear arguments presented in the thread, the more I think we're all making a massive number of assumptions. While there's less massive fallout as a result, I don't think insta-lichbomb is good in it's own right, even if it's not witchbombing. I don't think instant "hardships of magical girls" is necessarily a safe idea.

Even beyond all the ideas floating around about what Haruka knows and how, I'm already worried that we're focusing too much on the utility we can acquire from Haruka, and not enough on forging a proper understanding with her. (and I'll not that I am emphatically not better than anyone else here.)

Especially with a note Firn made in the discord:


Which would imply that leading Haruka into cynicism could lead to negative consequences. Even with the wichbomb defused I'm worrying that treating this like a "fill in the newbie" operation is, well, dangerous.

I've gotten the idea that we ran into a sudden boss battle before, and as such I'm getting kinda inclined to split it up into phases. (At the very spending some time learning about Haruka and her relationship with magic, before talking going and figuring out what we want to ask of her.)

Like, just, "chop the front off my vote and post it on its own" sort of thing.
That quote from Firn was in the context of people watching the anime guessing it, which is a rather different thing from people within the universe of the story guessing it.
 
That quote from Firn was in the context of people watching the anime guessing it, which is a rather different thing from people within the universe of the story guessing it.
It's probably a reasonable approximation for what happens when you hand a neat, tidy infodump to an expert from a different field before asking them to look over it for anything interesting.
 
I don't think you understand the point I'm making at all.

To put it in simple words as possible: Kyuubey does not believe we can get him more Grief than by following the Witch System.

Then, Kyuubey won't help us change the system, because for him, changing the system means a reduction in profits.

Then, we can't work with Kyuubey until such a time we can prove we can make a system that is more beneficial to him.

Is this clear enough? Can you stop addressing the example as if it was the point?
The only way to prove that we can make a better system is to learn as much as we can about the current one and then make improvements (unless you want to make one from scratch). The only way to learn about the system is through QB. Therefore, in order to make a better system, we will have to interact with QB.

That means that we will have to work with QB before we can make a new system.
 
"So, I'm afraid there's just one more point I'd like to discuss."

The meeting between the two of them had gone on long into the night, now, and Mami had left well before Sabrina could broach on any darker topics. The blonde-haired girl was currently dozing off in the other room, clutching a Sabrina chibi to her chest like a well-loved stuffed animal.

Sabrina rolled a marble of Grief between her fingers like a worry stone. "Just one more point?"

"Well, I could continue on forever, really. But unlike you immortals, I have to sleep, so I'll make it quick. Stage five of your Twelve Point Plan To Fix Everything... creative name, by the way..."

"It's not my name."

"Well, point five: re-integration into mundane society. As far as you understand, your average magical girl who has managed to survive at all is not in education, employment, or training, which is a serious problem for their lives going forward in a capitalist market economy with a strong masquerade."

Sabrina nodded brusquely. It was rather hard to pick up with your life, if you had to drop it in order to hunt Witches just to survive.

"Have you considered having them educated or employed by mundane individuals aware of their... circumstances?"

"Good luck finding someone like that," Sabrina said. Then she stopped fiddling with the Grief marble. "Wait just a second."

"Yes?"

"You're not planning on hiring a bunch of desperate magical girls and exploiting them for cheap magical labor, are you?"

"Don't be stupid. Hypothetically speaking, if I was going to circumvent the masquerade and hire a bunch of desperate magical girls, I would comply with child labor laws and pay them according to the quantity and quality of their labor, magical or otherwise. It would be well worth the investment for everyone."

That didn't seem like a complete recipe for horribleness, but... it still left a vaguely bad taste in Sabrina's mouth. "Very convenient."

"Did I mention the hypothetical benefits? Free dental."

"I don't think we need dentists...? No! Making shady contracts is how all of these poor girls get into this mess, not how they're going to get out of it."

Haruka continued on as if she hadn't heard Sabrina. "Free therapy, too."

"...you drive a hard bargain!"
 
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Who is this commoner side character rabble to dare to ask such a daring question to the most magnificent and honorable great Sabrina!? I say we just leave this uncivilized peasant in the dark and move on.

[] I must go, the world needs me
-[] Carry Mami bride style and jump from the window for score bonus
-[] Hug Mami

[] I think of some familiar
- You must study additional intrigue
 
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