So on the question of Excelsior replacements, what is the effective difference between a Light Explorer and a Heavy Cruiser? I mean, obviously one uses a cruiser frame and one an explorer frame, but in terms of bang for our buck?
I think we could split the roles a bit. As far as I have understood so far the ships fighting in the later phases of a battle dont actually need Science, instead the highest Science of our Fleet gives a bonus to every ship. This could open up space for these three roles:
Disclaimer: I have never even looked at the design sheet, so this is probably stupid.
Light Explorer: The best Science we can reasonably put into a ship, high survivability, everything else can be weak, though Defense and Presence would turn it into an awesome responder allowing it to level up in a reasonable time. Should be more easily built than the Heavy Explorer.
Deployment: One ship per Fleet during wars to buff every other ship in it, the rest stays back to do response stuff. How many we produce is thus defined by how much better they prove themselves to be at garrisoning than the other garrison ships.
They way our commanders currently really like their tiny task forces makes this awkward, but that might just be caused by our lack of a doctrine. All the techs giving more battle priority to Explorers also makes this idea worse.
Heavy Cruiser: The Renaissance scaled up. High C, L and H, everything else only as far as increasing is cost efficient. Should make the council squint suspiciously.
Deployment: This is our main heavy metal. All will be put into the areas where the conflict happens during war. We can only have too many if we cant keep up with our event responses during peace.
Maybe this should be an Explorer for all the boni we get for those, but building war Explorers sounds like bad PR.
Heavy Explorers: High everything. As expensive as we can afford.
Deployment: Five Year Missions. If we can afford to think about building ones for the regular fleet we didnt make them expensive enough.
This is what the Ambassador is supposed to be. A design that probably isnt efficient but will make every proud federation citizen cry out of sheer patriotism, while a picture of Kirks Enterprise appears as background and the Star Trek theme suddenly starts playing out of nowhere. The shame of being able to consider building Ambassador for lowly garrison duty should clearly inspire us all to go crazier next time.
Thing is, we have Fleet Doctrine boni that increase the chance of an attacking ship during a battle being one of our Explorers, improving their RoF at the cost of a slight RoF-reduction of the rest of our fleet as I understand it. Not giving Explorers in a battlefleet good Combat is shooting ourselves in the foot.
In the future, would it be possible to order an "Economic Update" to get a vague range of what the Incomes of the various great powers are. Possibly linked to the logistics update?
The industrial loop's sm and blk requirements / route penalty X 5 (constant multiplier) X 6 (bi-monthly trips*) is the total annual shipbuilding budget for SR and BR, respectively, including all the contributions from worlds, mining colonies, trading, etc.
Given the large Cardassian territory and their many shipyards, I'd estimate their route penalty to be on par with Starfleet's route penalty, which is 2 (at very least, it's >= 1.75 which is Seyek's route penalty or 1.5 which is most member fleets' route penalty).
So the Cardassian shipbuilding budget, assuming the listed industrial loop output is all dedicated to it (like it is for Starfleet and all the Federation member fleets) is:
~70b / 2 x 5 x 6 = ~1050br
~50s / 2 x 5 x 6 = ~750sr
Hmm, this is larger than my previously computed "upper bound" of 725br 730sr. But my mistake then was that I was assuming only the 10 new cargo ships and 3 new freighters since 2310 would be responsible for any increases in industrial loop and thus shipbuilding budget, when in fact there's all the other existing unused cargo ships and freighters that could be utilized for the industrial loop.
edit: For reference, Starfleet's current shipbuilding budget is:
1090br 795sr (plus >100 br and sr from events)
* The quote above says "monthly" rather than "bi-monthly". If it actually is monthly, then holy shit, the Cardassian shipbuilding budget would be:
~2100br ~1500sr
On a somewhat related note, it's good to get more exact numbers than the 2316 Cardassian fleet strength intel report, which only showed ~45 cargo ships, ~25 freighters, and 2 super-freighters (and estimates of other auxiliaries).
edit2: It comes to mind that we can also estimate the mining income and RP income from the feeder loop...though the fact that it's so much larger than the industrial loop indicates that:
a) much more of their income comes from mining colonies than member worlds (compared to Starfleet)
b) they might have a very high route penalty
Since fixed installations, for us at least, take as much SR and BR, we'll take the BR reported off of the SR to get the available results for fleet support.
120-40=~80SR.
Next, known hull counts.
Frigates cost 0.5 SR each, and the Cardasians have 27 of them (6 Hiroshi, 3 Takaai (Science), 6 Isamu and 12 Takaai (Combat)) which costs 13.5 SR.
Explores cost 2 SR each, and the Cardassians have 2 of the (2 Lorgot) which costs 4 SR.
Auxiliary ships of all types, excluding civilian, cargo, freighter and super-freighters, cost 1 SR each and the Cardassians have 24 of them (2 Research cruisers, 1 hospital, 5 Colony, 6 Prospectors, 6 Engineering and 4 Passenger) which costs 24 SR
80-13.5-4-24=38.5 SR
Cruisers cost 1 SR each, so the Cardassians should have about 38 of them.
The Cardassians have 7 Kaldars, so there should be about 31 Jalduns, which is within our report range but pegging it at the high end.
Slightly different support costs, tiny bumps to the BR demand for fixed installations, or having the SR estimated high and the BR low changes all of this, of course, but we should probably expect the Jaldun count to be closer to 30 than 25.
This a good analyis, but I have a giant nitpick (if that's not an oxymoron): small cargo is NOT abbreviated "SR" and bulk cargo is NOT abbreviated "BR". Indeed, those already mean something else in many important contexts.
Is there another round of berth-expanding techs anywhere? Even another 5% on top of the current 10% would allow us to build Excelsiors in 2mt berths, which would negate competition with the Ambassadors. Alternatively, could we knock off 100kt with a refit? Take the chines back off the engineering hull or something?
I think we could split the roles a bit. As far as I have understood so far the ships fighting in the later phases of a battle dont actually need Science, instead the highest Science of our Fleet gives a bonus to every ship...
The problem is, we don't get to reliably decide that a given ship only participates in the part of the battle we want it to participate in. Frigates continue fighting through all phases of the battle, for instance.
This could open up space for these three roles:
Disclaimer: I have never even looked at the design sheet, so this is probably stupid.
Light Explorer: The best Science we can reasonably put into a ship, high survivability, everything else can be weak, though Defense and Presence would turn it into an awesome responder allowing it to level up in a reasonable time. Should be more easily built than the Heavy Explorer.
Deployment: One ship per Fleet during wars to buff every other ship in it, the rest stays back to do response stuff. How many we produce is thus defined by how much better they prove themselves to be at garrisoning than the other garrison ships.
They way our commanders currently really like their tiny task forces makes this awkward, but that might just be caused by our lack of a doctrine. All the techs giving more battle priority to Explorers also makes this idea worse.
Our commanders assemble relatively small task forces (Combat 30-50) for the good and simple reason that they often have a lot of targets to hit, or need ships in multiple locations at the same time. Real tactics just don't boil down to "move all the ships to this place, fight here, war over."
For example, we got good results out of the Licori War precisely because our main force was divided up into three large elements. Two of them spread out to hit separate targets that both urgently needed to be punched out, while a third hovered in deep space and jumped the enemy when they moved to reinforce one of the threatened targets. If we'd only had two task forces, we'd have had a different set of tactical problems and things might have actually gone worse for us; if we'd had one, thing would probably have worked out okay but it could have been rough if the Anoxa moon cannon or some of the more exotic Ixarian defense systems had taken a big enough bite out of our doomstack.
Moreover, in real life there's this thing called "span of command;" one officer cannot coordinate thirty ships at once effectively. Any fleet we build that is big enough will have to have a subdivided command structure allowing multiple flag officers to command multiple parts of the force. For example, Task Force Three, our "big hammer" force during the Licori War, was commanded by a rear admiral who had two subordinate commodores handling half of her force each during battle.
And the enemy is perfectly free to fly around in small squadrons or individual ships whenever they want, which means we can't actually count on always being able to fight every battle with a doomstack- because if they have five squadrons in five places at once, they can have one of their five forces 'play tag' with the doomstack and evade, while the other four harass us. Sometimes, you HAVE to divide your command.
Heavy Cruiser: The Renaissance scaled up. High C, L and H, everything else only as far as increasing is cost efficient. Should make the council squint suspiciously.
Deployment: This is our main heavy metal. All will be put into the areas where the conflict happens during war. We can only have too many if we cant keep up with our event responses during peace.
Maybe this should be an Explorer for all the boni we get for those, but building war Explorers sounds like bad PR.
The problem with this design is that there's very little cost to us of making it a good S/P/D ship while we're at it, until you wind up with the kind of heavy cruiser designs people are already talking about. Ships that compare to the statline of the Excelsior, which isn't really the kind of design you seem to be thinking about.
Heavy Explorers: High everything. As expensive as we can afford.
Deployment: Five Year Missions. If we can afford to think about building ones for the regular fleet we didnt make them expensive enough.
This is what the Ambassador is supposed to be. A design that probably isnt efficient but will make every proud federation citizen cry out of sheer patriotism, while a picture of Kirks Enterprise appears as background and the Star Trek theme suddenly starts playing out of nowhere. The shame of being able to consider building Ambassador for lowly garrison duty should clearly inspire us all to go crazier next time.
I hate to break this to you, but the largest ships we can physically build are not so expensive that we can't afford to consider them for garrison duty.
Actually did you know that we can infer that from the logistics intel update?
The industrial loop's sm and blk requirements / route penalty X 5 (constant multiplier) X 6 (bi-monthly trips*) is the total annual shipbuilding budget for SR and BR, respectively, including all the contributions from worlds, mining colonies, trading, etc.
Given the large Cardassian territory and their many shipyards, I'd estimate their route penalty to be on par with Starfleet's route penalty, which is 2 (at very least, it's >= 1.75 which is Seyek's route penalty or 1.5 which is most member fleets' route penalty).
So the Cardassian shipbuilding budget, assuming the listed industrial loop output is all dedicated to it (like it is for Starfleet and all the Federation member fleets) is:
~70b / 2 x 5 x 6 = ~1050br
~50s / 2 x 5 x 6 = ~750sr
Hmm, this is largely than my previously computed "upper bound" of 725br 730sr. But my mistake then was that I was assuming only the 10 new cargo ships and 3 new freighters since 2310 would be responsible for any increases in industrial loop and thus shipbuilding budget, when in fact there's all the other existing unused cargo ships and freighters that could be utilized for the industrial loop.
* The quote above says "monthly" rather than "bi-monthly". If it actually is monthly, then holy shit, the Cardassian shipbuilding budget would be:
~2100br ~1500sr
On a somewhat related note, it's good to get more exact numbers than the 2316 Cardassian fleet strength intel report, which only showed ~45 cargo ships, ~25 freighters, and 2 super-freighters (and estimates of other auxiliaries).
It occurs to me that the Cardassians may be making certain vassals* build transport/freighter/cargo ships for them. If they had a crippling auxiliaries problem back in 2310, I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the things they did in order to solve the problem. The Konen, for instance, probably built a LOT of shipyards during their fight to resist Cardassian conquest, and while they're clearly still being allowed to operate capital ships, I wouldn't be surprised if there are treaty limits on how many tons of warships they're allowed to own, or a requirement that they build X tons of merchant shipping for Cardassia for every Y tons of military shipping they build for themselves.
*(Especially the Konen, who are distrusted, and the Bajorans, who are a bit low-tech and extra distrusted, plus possibly being practically unarmed anyway)
We've taken care of most of our outstanding regular reports. Romulan shipbuilding would be nice, but we could afford a 1 year break on the Klingons. Outstanding ship designs continues to be the biggest concerns, and we will need the Klingon Tar'chak and the Kaldar II and Jaldun II reports ASAP. The K'Tinga-Replacement and the Khellian can likely wait another year.
NB: With the Klingon intel report we just got from research, we should now be capable of requesting Klingon shipbuilding and shipyard reports, like we have with Cardassians and Romulans.
So in an effort to get more variety in the Build Plan votes, I have come up with three options for consideration in 2318. Let me know what you think of voting between these 3?
At the moment I favor option A to continue deemphasizing Excelsiors (see all previous lengthy arguments) and building one last Constie. May play around a bit with the spreadsheet later.
I'm continuing to wrestle with a way to present fleet Deployment Plan alternatives in a way that makes sense and is easy to understand in terms of priorities.
I don't have it yet, but hopefully by EOY I'll be able to present alternate plan versions that prioritize either the GBZ, the Harmony of Horizon, or some of our other fronts.
Maybe something along the lines as what Nix suggested? It would require some coordination with Oneiros to setup such a preliminary vote (at least to avoid any unintentional vote clobbering by updates).
TBH I was just hearing this sentiment of needing large production runs to make a ship class worth it, and I was just trying to find a relevant enough post to quote to make a rebuttal, so sorry if it sounds like I'm scapegoating you
@Briefvoice , to make the plan you've got laid out less eyewatering, I'm going to do what I do with Snakepit votes and delete all the parts in common between the three plans.
UP Berth A (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth B (3mt) – Occupied with Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth C (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth D (3mt) – Occupied with Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth E (3mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Leave open.
UP Berth a (2mt) – Berth available 2318.Q4. Leave open.
UP Berth 1 (1mt) – Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 2 (1mt) - Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 3 (1mt) - Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 4 (1mt) – Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 5 (1mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Begin refit of Selaya (ETC 2319.Q2)
[no vote][BUILD] Option B - 2318 3 Excelsior-A, 1 Excelsior Refit, 2 Constellation-A Refits, 2 Renaissance, 1 Constellation-A, 1 Kepler [+1 EXCEL LIKELY BUILD 1 LESS RENNIE in 2319]
SF Berth A (3mt) – Building Constellation-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
SF Berth 1 (1mt) – Building cargo ship (ETC 2319.Q4)
SF Berth 2 (1mt) – Building Constellation-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
40 Eridani Berth A (3mt) – Building Excelsior-A with 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus (ETC 2320.Q4)
40 Eridani Berth B (3mt) – Building Excelsior-A with 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus (ETC 2320.Q4)
UP Berth A (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth B (3mt) – Occupied with Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth C (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth D (3mt) – Occupied with Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth E (3mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth a (2mt) – Berth available 2318.Q4. Leave open.
UP Berth 1 (1mt) – Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 2 (1mt) - Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 3 (1mt) - Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 4 (1mt) – Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 5 (1mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Begin refit of Selaya (ETC 2319.Q2)
[no vote][BUILD] Option C - 2318 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Excelsior Refit, 2 Constellation-A Refits, 3 Renaissance, 1Kepler [DROPPING Constie-A in favor of extra Renaissance; no RENNIE REDUCTION 2319]
SF Berth A (3mt) – Building Constellation-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
SF Berth 1 (1mt) – Building cargo ship (ETC 2319.Q4)
SF Berth 2 (1mt) – Building Constellation-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
40 Eridani Berth A (3mt) – Building Excelsior-A with 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus (ETC 2320.Q4)
40 Eridani Berth B (3mt) – Building Excelsior-A with 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus (ETC 2320.Q4)
UP Berth A (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth B (3mt) – Occupied with Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth C (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth D (3mt) – Occupied with Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth E (3mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Leave open.
UP Berth a (2mt) – Berth available 2318.Q4. Leave open.
UP Berth 1 (1mt) – Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 2 (1mt) - Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 3 (1mt) - Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 4 (1mt) – Building Renaissance using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus. (ETC 2319.Q2)
UP Berth 5 (1mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Begin refit of Selaya (ETC 2319.Q2)
Let's begin by stripping out all the berths that will be busy all year and are not even under consideration for "so what do we do with this berth this year?"
UP Berth A (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth C (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth E (3mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Leave open.
UP Berth a (2mt) – Berth available 2318.Q4. Leave open.
UP Berth 5 (1mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Begin refit of Selaya (ETC 2319.Q2)
[no vote][BUILD] Option B - 2318 3 Excelsior-A, 1 Excelsior Refit, 2 Constellation-A Refits, 2 Renaissance, 1 Constellation-A, 1 Kepler [+1 EXCEL LIKELY BUILD 1 LESS RENNIE in 2319]
UP Berth A (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth C (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth E (3mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth a (2mt) – Berth available 2318.Q4. Leave open.
UP Berth 5 (1mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Begin refit of Selaya (ETC 2319.Q2)
[no vote][BUILD] Option C - 2318 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Excelsior Refit, 2 Constellation-A Refits, 3 Renaissance, 1Kepler [DROPPING Constie-A in favor of extra Renaissance; no RENNIE REDUCTION 2319]
UP Berth A (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth C (3mt) – Berth free 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth E (3mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Leave open.
UP Berth a (2mt) – Berth available 2318.Q4. Leave open.
UP Berth 5 (1mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Begin refit of Selaya (ETC 2319.Q2)
Furthermore, some of the elements are identical across all three plans (Plans for Lor'Vela, the twin Excelsior-A builds in Utopia Planitia berths A and C, a refit of Selaya at the newly opened Berth 5 in the same yard, a refit of Odyssey at Ana Font, Docana at Oreasa, and a Renaissance and the USS Kepler at 40 Eridani).
I could also delete the "no plans for Utopia Planitia two-megaton berth 'a' " line which is shared across all plans, but I'm not entirely sure I should because people may have opinions about leaving berths open. I assume it's to leave room for T'Faer to start a superfreighter there?
ANYWAY. Once the commonality is stripped out, we're really only discussing a short list of questions:
1) To build an extra Excelsior at Utopia Planitia with a 'triple build' or to restrict ourselves to a 'double build?'
2) To build a Constellation, or a Renaissance, at Oreasa's Berth Number One, the one that isn't going to be busy refitting Docana?
UP Berth E (3mt) – Berth available 2318.Q2. Commence construction of an Excelsior-A using 'parallel construction' industrial park bonus and 1qt off build time from Admiral Sirvk bonus. (ETC 2321.Q1)
UP Berth a (2mt) – Berth available 2318.Q4. Leave open.
[no vote][BUILD] Option C - 2318 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Excelsior Refit, 2 Constellation-A Refits, 3 Renaissance, 1Kepler [DROPPING Constie-A in favor of extra Renaissance; no RENNIE REDUCTION 2319]
I don't mind the idea of small production runs for new classes, but that just shifts the argument to large production runs for updates to the same roles over several classes.
I could also delete the "no plans for Utopia Planitia two-megaton berth 'a' " line which is shared across all plans, but I'm not entirely sure I should because people may have opinions about leaving berths open. I assume it's to leave room for T'Faer to start a superfreighter there?
If you look at the images I I put up, the idea is to use that 2mt berth for building a Renaissance on a dual build next year. I put up the images to help people understand how votes today might alter things downstream.
ANYWAY. Once the commonality is stripped out, we're really only discussing a short list of questions:
1) To build an extra Excelsior at Utopia Planitia with a 'triple build' or to restrict ourselves to a 'double build?'
2) To build a Constellation, or a Renaissance, at Oreasa's Berth Number One, the one that isn't going to be busy refitting Docana?
And how those choices impact our options down the line, yes. That's why I put the commentary in brackets at the end of the option B and option C plan names.
I was playing around yesterday with the sheet and came up with a new concept we might want to consider for a limited run. Specifically, a dedicated scout with skirmish ability. It requires a frigate 1mt hull, but it makes possible S9 along with combat frigate stats and D7. It's neither cheap nor efficient, but given that we would be building only a very small number I doubt that's a problem.
If you look at the images I I put up, the idea is to use that 2mt berth for building a Renaissance on a dual build next year. I put up the images to help people understand how votes today might alter things downstream.
And how those choices impact our options down the line, yes. That's why I put the commentary in brackets at the end of the option B and option C plan names.
Now this I am aware of. My main point was that a lot of the complicated "ecosystem" of different plans you're presenting is the same from option to option, which makes it harder to think about which of the plans is best without a bit of trimming.
As with the Snakepit, the goal of effectively comparing plans that have twenty-plus lines apiece is best served by considering only the parts where they actually differ.
As with the Snakepit, the goal of effectively comparing plans that have twenty-plus lines apiece is best served by considering only the parts where they actually differ.
I was playing around yesterday with the sheet and came up with a new concept we might want to consider for a limited run. Specifically, a dedicated scout with skirmish ability. It requires a frigate 1mt hull, but it makes possible S9 along with combat frigate stats and D7. It's neither cheap nor efficient, but given that we would be building only a very small number I doubt that's a problem.
When you say "combat frigate stats," what do you mean? And is this doable using present technology?
One thing to remember is that a super-effective scout ship that is highly vulnerable to getting beaten to death by enemy cruisers and 'gun frigates' in the Vanguard phase is going to run into a lot of problems. This is the big reason people are leery about the [i}Kepler[/i] as a scout ship, since it already comes pretty close to the performance envelope you describe. S8 D5 isn't THAT much worse than S9 D7.
[X][REPORT] Improving the Cardassian Readiness report
The newest of Pathe Lathriss' Defence Readiness reports has arrived on your desk. Although the intention of both yourself and Vice Admiral Lathriss was that there would be an expansion of Cardassian War expections, the Sydraxian developments have instead rather shrunk the outlook of his report. Even so, he has provided a few potential items to request for upcoming MWCO conferences and Council lobbying.
Beyond this, you are continuing to hear rumblings from the senior officers in Starfleet Tactical Command that they would dearly like to push for ripping up the existing fleet roles and starting with a fresh outlook, incorporating all the lessons of the Arcadian War.
==============
Current Required Ship Roles, as identified by Starfleet Tactical:
Heavy Explorer
Component Needs: FYM-Capable, need Explorer Frame, Medium+ Operations Frame
Stat Needs: Must have 5+ Science, Presence, 4+ Combat.
Scale Needs: No max-size or crew, minimum 2.2mt.
Intention: To conduct Five-Year-Missions, be capable of extended unsupported missions, handle severe science anomalies and conduct high-level diplomacy.
Currently fulfilled by Excelsior, Ambassador project
General Cruiser
Component Needs: Cruiser Frame
Stat Needs: 4+ stat average, minimum 4 Defence
Scale Needs: 1-1.5mt,
Intention: To form the backbone of the fleet when in battle, and to be the first-line of response to sector events.
Currently filled by: Renaissance
Garrison Frigate
Component Needs: Frigate Frame, < 80SR
Stat Needs: Minimum 2+ all stats, 3+ Science, Presence
Scale Needs: Any
Intention: Bolster ability to protect and manage sectors within Federation space. Designed to be capable of responding competently to most events.
Currently filled by: Centaur-A
Combat Frigate
Component Needs: Frigate Frame, Large Tactical Frame, < 60 SR, 1+ Torpedoes
Stat Needs: 3+ Combat, 2+ Defence, 2+ Shield
Scale Needs: Any
Intention: Bolster fleet's ability to compete in combat.
Currently filled by: Miranda-A
Science Frigate
Component Needs: Frigate Frame, Medium+ Operations Frame, Small Tactical Frame, < 100 SR
Science Lab, LR+Nav Sensors
Stat Needs: 5+ Science, 3+ Presence, Max 2 Combat
Scale Needs: Any
Intention: A ship to replace the Oberth as a more capable, all around platform for science and short-range exploration.
Currently filled by: none
=========================================
What type of ship do you believe Starfleet is currently lacking?
[ ][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[ ][ROLES] Suggest something else
[ ][ROLES] A Garrison Cruiser to cheaply anchor home sectors
[ ][ROLES] A Heavy Cruiser
[ ][ROLES] A Light Explorer to supplement the Excelsiors
[ ][ROLES] A high-presence courier escort
[ ][ROLES] A specialised minesweeper
[ ][ROLES] Update the Combat Escort requirements (+2 Militarisation)
[ ][ROLES] Update any other requirement (name)
Roles that you decide upon will be added to the list of available ship design projects that you can request from the Council.
The important thing that people should do here is to consider your strategic context. What is your current fleet capable of? What do you need it to be capable of? What are your enemies capable of doing? What do you need in order to stop them from ruining your whole week?
For Starfleet especially, you also need to think about the mission statement 'to boldly go', and how your current fleet is capable of handling those tasks.
Are your ships capable enough (do they have the right S/P stats, or combat stats, or durability)?
Are you able to build enough ships within your budget? Do they need to be cheaper?
Do you have space in your budget for heavier construction? Is the BR/SR balance wrong for your income?
During the war did you find yourself thinking, "gee, I wish we had a 'X' to do this job"?
Do you have concerns about being able to counter ships? The Connie-B project arose out of a need to counter the Jaldun, for example.
Have you been feeling like you're failing too many events? Too many Science or Presence Tests? Do you need cheaper, faster construction in order to just get ships in space?
Despite probably not being one of the more glamorous votes, this is actually one of the most important because this one alters the entire shape of your fleet for in-game-decades into the future.
==========================================
Wargames
Pick a Scenario you would like to see occur:
[ ][WG] A 1v1 with any two Ships, including member world ships (Nominate two ships)
[ ][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships, (Nominate ships)
[ ][WG] A Fleet Battle (Cost 2pp/Explorer, 1pp/Cruiser, 1pp/2 Escorts)
==========================================
Next Year's Report should be...
[ ][REPORT] Improving the Cardassian Readiness report
[ ][REPORT] A different possible War Scenario with <group>
[ ][REPORT] Request
After the 2316 saw the first release of a Starfleet Tactical War Readiness Report, this year sees an expansion on potential conflict with the Ashalla Pact. There have been some changes in the interstellar-political situation. With the apparent defusing of the Sydraxian civil war, and split away from the rest of the Ashalla Pact, the situation against the Sydraxians is looking much more comfortable. On the other hand, the affiliation of the Ashidi adds an all new and very uncomfortable wrinkle to your defensive concerns. If you mean to defend them, should they be dragged into a Federation-Ashalla War, it will be exceptionally difficult.
We have added in an assessments of weak points and potential courses of action to our reports, including possible fortification points, locations for possible Starbases, areas that require additional reinforcements, and places where supplies should be pre-positioned.
-
Summary:
Three Major Front-Zones:
Adrazzi Corridor (Coreward Apinae Sector)
Balogot Front (Rimward Apinae Sector)
Themis Front (Rethelia Sector)
Potential Flashzones:
GBZ Front
Vega Front
Dawiar Front
Federation-Wide Suggestions:
Starfleet Tactical's recommendation is to make our major assault via the Themis/Bajoran Front, which offers our best chance to cut into enemy industry and strike at the heart of Cardassia.
* Appeal to Council for an investment in pre-building space mines
* Continue to invest in Signal Intercepts and other parts of your Intelligence apparatus to counter the Obsidian Order
* Continue to build up a Spacelift Reserve to allow for potential convoy losses
Expected Fronts:
Adrazzi Corridor Front
Nature - Light Forces, Intense, Heavy Skirmishing
Exposure - Federation Feeder Loop assets, all Apiata Loops, Trade from Indoria, Amarkia
Logistics Vulnerability - Very High, it will be difficult to protect convoys here, and many ships from the GBZ will pass through
Local Member Readiness:
Apiata - Very high, the major worlds of the Apiata are a very tough, mutually supporting cluster
Amarkia - Well equipped forces will be ready to reinforce here.
Orion - Not battle ready in the least, will require work to prepare
We strongly expect that the Goshawnar will place their weight here, and the empty 0g and 1g subsectors allows for considerable room to move. Light forces will have an edge here, and attacks from unexpected quarters would be a real concern. However, it will be difficult for either side to generate a breakthrough. However, If we are driven back from Apinae, our links to the GBZ will become nearly impossible. The line must hold here or we will suffer a very shop drop in resource budget.
Stages: Cardassia - Homeworld of the Cardassian Union, sure to be extremely heavily defended
Koyang Adyot - A key Cardassian Mining Colony, last major inhabited
Anou - An agricultural site
Vedarot - A key world that will be fiercely contested
Kamey Prime - An important Mining Colony, the outpost here protects the approach to Vedarot
Antak - A Minor Colony of the Cardassian
Adrazzi Gulf - Open space without many interesting systems, but maybe more surveying will identify tactical advantages? Grizzi - Minor Colony of the Apiata,
Burrizz III - A Major World, with a shipyard and extensive population
Apinae - Homeworld of the Apiata, an important world politically and industrially.
Irrizizza - Major World, another major Apiata world, if pushed past here then Apiatan space has effectively fallen
Beta Corridan 31 - A Starfleet Mining World and outpost, a hub which can be used to hold the line
Leas Akaam - A hub of Amarkian chivalry, the key defence in the way of Amarkia
-> From here it becomes the Amarkian Front
Suggestions:
The biggest obstacle here is the Adrazzi Gulf itself, and the limited settlement of space between Apinae and Indoria. This will allow wolf packs to pass through with relative ease. The problem will become far worse if we go on the attack on this front, pushing across to Antak, where our supply ships will need to pass over the Gulf. So our recommendations here include the following:
* Building a Starfleet outpost at Grizzi as a forward hub
* Push the Apiata to use their Foragers aggressively in the Adrazzi Gulf and claim defensible positions.
* Undertake building more waystations, and reinforcing them, to give better protective cover for passing convoys.
* Pre-position materials at Burrizz III through the MWCO.
A less conventional solution is also to extend critical industry to world around Apinae in order to reduce the amount of traffic that needs to undertake the journey back to the transit up at Leas Akaam.
Alrizzine Front (Low-Risk)
Nature: Not expected to become live. Opposition could be Sydraxians and/or Yrillian mercenaries, however combat may be more likely on a Tales Har front
Exposure: Could devastate the feeder and supply convoys to/from the GBZ
This is likely to not develop into a major combat zone. We expect at this stage that the Sydraxians will not enter into any war.
Dar Nakar - Homeworld of the Sydraxians
Kar Akar - Major World of the Sydraxians, protected by a starbase, presenting a very tough defensive site.
Tega - Minor Colony, only protected by a station. Onprazza - Minor Colony of the Apiata, actually in the SBZ area, settled by a handful of particularly eccentric hive families
Alrizzine IV - A major Apiata world with an outpost and shipyard facilities.
Apinae - Homeworld of the Apiata
-> Leas Akaam Front
Suggestions:
This is a relatively compressed space, but our stepping-off point is effectively unprotected.
* Build a supply hub/outpost at Onprazza if you intend to go on the attack here, otherwise mining it may be the better idea.
* Appeal to the Apiata to invest in a Starbase for Alrizzine IV.
* Have Starfleet Intelligence work out a standing plan of action to disable the starbase at Kar Akar to facilitate an attack.
Vega Front
Nature: Highly likely to be a hot spot of rogue Yrillian piracy and brigandry, with Corsair-based wolf-packs attempting to infiltrate Federation space to impact the Industrial Loops of Starfleet.
Exposure: Limited, as the Vega Starbase and and outposts at Klivvar Proxima, Subiaco, and Joburg all lead to a well protected frontage.
Local Member Readiness:
UESPA - Moderate, fleet size is increasing and making good on frigate losses during Arcadian War
Tellar State Forces - Good, fleet size has increased and this is their major focus at present
Vulcan High Command - Forces are there, but their command structure is resistent
Suggestions:
* This is a fairly well-protected space, but in this case it may be best to push the UE and Tellar authorities to seed their minor colonies in the area with Stations. It may take some political will to get buy-in.
* Organising exercises utilising SBZ ships attempting infiltration past the UESPA/TSF will lead to better performance in any potential war.
Balogot Front
Nature: Potentially a messy meat-grinder. From Lapycorias to Balogot, with cross-over to the Themis Seye-Bajor front.
Exposure: Indoria is very near, but the supply lines are tight and well protected.
Logistics Vulnerability: Moderate
Local Member Readiness:
Indoria - Moderate, doing what they can but this is going to be a very high-intensity zone and they are still modernising. Need help refitting/modernising.
Orion - Not prepared for this
Caitian - Potentially tied down against the Dawiar, inexperienced with joint commands, learning in GBZ
Whichever front the Konen ties into will become very strained. If it is this one, it will be very difficult to hold, even with two Starbases in the way of Indoria. These two systems, Lapycorias and Indoria, are the keys to holding the sector. If they fall, the compression eases considerably, and protecting your convoy lines will start to become very difficult.
Cardassia
Trangot - Major
Ultalla - A minor Cardassian world, little more than an outpost, but it does provide some exotic foodstuffs. A necessary jumping off point for Trangot.
Pak Gassong - A minor Cardassian civilian colony with limited defences, but an important convoy waystation
Balogot - A major Cardassian world that has recently built a Starbase
Inaka - Mining Colony protected by a reinforced outpost, and with a Jaldun always on patrol. Laypcorias - Starfleet Starbase 9, set to protect Indoria
Indoria - Homeworld of the Indorian Congress, now protected by a Starbase of its own.
Pridorin IV - A mining colony
Vintus - A minor colony world
Galus V - A mining colony
Gaiar Har - An Amarkian mining colony
Leas Akaam
-> Amarkia Front
Suggestions:
* Preposition supplies to reduce the chance of losing auxiliaries.
* Request the Indorians produce a repair yard to support what is likely to become a very destructive front.
* Build an outpost at Gamma Canidae V to protect against potential wolf packs.
* Starfleet Intelligence has a few connections on the ground to Bajor, and would like approval to plan for potential missions to the planet to disrupt the Cardassians in event of war.
* Push the Indorians to scout and fortify systems flanking Lapycorias with outposts and upgraded sensors during the MWCO.
Themis Front
Nature: Smashmouth offence, with forces lined up on both sides for the headlong rush.
Exposure: Rethelia is very near the border.
Logistics Vulnerability: Low
Local Member Readiness
Indoria - Unable to support
Seyek - Have lost their preparedness due to social upheavals and the pandemic that recently ripped through their worlds
Qloath - Ill-prepared
Cardassia - Homeworld of the Cardassian Union, heavily defended.
Tolyok - A minor colony world
Galundun - A major Cardassian world with shipyards
Bajor - Homeworld of the Bajorans, well garrisoned
Gandei - Bajor's main colony Rethelia - Homeworld of the Seyek, if it falls there will be serious trouble
Cethoth - A minor colony world of the Seyek, a key SR producer, and home to Nav Deflector yards
Iciapas - An outpost world in the centre of Seyek space that guards their internal LoC.
Fiiral - Homeworld of the Fiiral people, second-most important world in Seyek space
Carnin Quel - A major Qloathi world with Shipyards and Critical Industry
Arqueniou - Homeworld of the Qloathi, the loss of which would be a major political blow Lamarck - Homeworld of the Lamarckians, a race with very little military capacity. Hard to defend but footage of this world under occupation would be very bad.
->From here it becomes the Dawiar front pushing back into the Ferasa sector
Suggestions:
* Suggest to the Rethelians that additional defences in Rethelia will be crucial, including reinforced stations around infrastructure.
* Less of a military suggestion, but it would be good to suggest that the FDS help prepare the Seyek for being on the front of an Cardassian-Federation War to help make sure their support is as high as possible.
* Hacitorus will require protection
* Get Seyek a membership as soon as possible
* Push the Seyek to identify potential blocking systems
Tales Har Front (Low-Risk)
Nature: This is no longer considered an expected battlefront as the Sydraxians are no longer a likely combatant.
Exposure: If this becomes cut, everything spinward of Amarkia could be lost. However, there are no forces expected to be brought to bear here.
Logistics Vulnerability: Low
Local Member Readiness:
Amarkia - Strong forces, but more defences could be present. Granting permission to fortify more SBZ worlds will help.
Kar Akar - Major world of the Sydraxians Gretaria - Homeworld of the Gretarians, an advance through here would be bad politics 3 Amarkian Colonies - Minor Amarkian settlements, colonies, etc.
Tales Har - A major Amarkian world with important infrastructure. The crucial point that must be held to protect the convoy lines.
Tiankaria - An Amarkian research colony
Hophos III-2 - A Starfleet mining colony
-> Unknown
Suggestion:
Although this is a very low likelihood with recent diplomatic developments, the danger here is so acute we are compelled to mention it.
* Tales Har is the gateway - strong defences can hold them here
* Investing in a backbone of reinforced waystations on the twenty lightyear shipping route between Amarkia and Tellar will help cut down on the risk of corsairs considerably
* Arrange for Starfleet Prospecting to identify more forward places, in the SBZ, that can be established as a defensive hub, which Tales Har can back up.
Dawiar Front (Low-Risk)
Nature: Not expected to go hot, we believe we can talk the Dawiar down in event of war
Exposure: If this does fail, it would be a problem likely only if Cardassian forces are allowed to pre-position. If not, Dawiar should be able to be collapsed by member forces surging spinwards.
Local Member Readiness:
Caitian - Much of the Caitian Grand Fleet's focus has been on the Dawiar, they'll be ready
Andor - Limited cooperation with the Caitians, but they have some of the firepower. Could do with another Renaissance.
Risa - No.
Kharhazard - Homeworld of the Dawiar, likely to be both well fortified and defended to the last.
Thon-Shalud System - A mining colony, weakly defended so far, but expect an outpost to be built here if the war looks likely. Ollasa IV - The President's homeworld, although it is not a crucial strategic site, expect there to be political hell to pay if it falls.
17 Canis - An uninhabited system with a waystation and listening posts that sit between Ollasa and Ferasa.
Ferasa - The Caitian Homeworld, if this falls it will have serious ramifications.
Harper's Mane - A Caitian Mining Colony
-or-
Kharhazard - Homeworld of the Dawiar, likely to be both well fortified and defended to the last.
Thon-Shalud System - A mining colony, weakly defended so far, but expect an outpost to be built here if the war looks likely. Yashrr - A minor colony world of the Caitians. Although far less important that Ollasa IV, it is much more vulnerable, and opens the road to other avenues of attack.
Foshieran - A research colony is in the system. From here it is easy to cut the Caitian Trunk/Industry Loop between all three major Caitian worlds.
Merfara - One of the major Caitian worlds, from here an attacking force has a soft-underbelly to prey upon.
Suggestions:
* Maintain as friendly a set of relations as possible with the Dawiar.
* This should be defensible with just member world fleets.
* Push for Andor-Caitian Joint Exercises in the MWCO, as they are the likely forces for holding this front.
* A Starbase at Ollasa would be a luxury, but an outpost at Yashrr would be a necessity. The Caitians should be advised of this.
Gabriel Expanse Front
Nature: This is already a free-for-all, but it is likely to become rather a meat grinder.
Exposure: All sides have exposure here, and if the Sydarxians cannot be kept out of any war here, we could find ourselves pinched out of the Expanse.
Qloath Front (Low-Risk)
Nature: Potential Front against the Lecarre, likely to become a battle between Lecarre and Qloath. We have seen very little evidence that the Lecarre are on the verge of any major fleet capacity.
Exposure: Mainly Special Forces in nature.
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Federation Industry Breakdown
Feeder Loop:
Route Penalty = 1.5x (Increased due to increased GBZ mining and additional wide-spread mining colonies)
(Continued GBZ expansion will increase this penalty due to the distance it must travel to the industrial hubs)
Industry Loop:
Route Penalty = 2x
(+0.1 for Apinae Shipyard)
(-0.1 for Amarkia Critical Industry Expansion)
What follows here is pretty freaking nerdy, you are warned:
An Ideal Engineering Team is 2 Engineering Ships, 2 Freighters, 3 Cargo Ships
Coverage -
Feeder Loop: Full / 1F 2C
Trunk Loop: Full / 1F 2C
Industrial Loop: Full / 1F
Support Loop: Full / 1F
Engineering -
Teams: 1 Full
Spacelift: (1S 3C)
Reserve Spacelift:
3 Freighter
11 Cargo Ships
Total Member World Reserve Spacelift:
3 Super-Freighter
52 Freighters
85 Cargo Ships
(including 11 Freighters, 17 Cargo Ships in Federation service)
==========================================
Intelligence Analysis of Doctrinal Beliefs of Various Tier 1 and Tier 2 Powers
Please review the following:
Name
Fleet Design
Offensive Doctrine
Defensive Doctrine
United Earth SPA
Combined
Decisive Battle
Fleet in Being
Tellarite State Forces
Combined
Decisive Battle
Fleet in Being
Andorian Guard
Combined
Decisive Battle
Fleet in Being
Apiata All-Hives
Swarm
Wolf Pack
Forward Defence
C of Amarkia Navy
Combined
Base Strike
Forward Defence
Caitian Grand Fleet
Swarm
Wolf Pack
Fleet in Being
Rigel Defence Force
Turtle
Base Strike
Fleet in Being
Seyek
Lone Ranger
Decisive Battle
Fleet in Being
Honiani
Lone Ranger
Base Strike
Forward Defence
Arcadian Empire
Technical
Wolf Pack
Fleet in Being
Magen Chalal (KP)
Lone Ranger
Base Strike
Fleet in Being
Yrillians
Swarm
Wolf Pack
Forward Defence
Cardassia
Combined *
Decisive Batle
Forward Defence
Sydraxians
Swarm
Wolf Pack
Forward Defence
Klingons
Swarm**
Any***
Forward Defence
Romulans
Combined
Wolf Pack
Fleet in Being
* = Variant
** = Klingons are starting to shift to a specialised doctrine with larger ships
*** = You don't spend your whole day thinking about Glory and Honour without thinking out a few tricks
When you say "combat frigate stats," what do you mean? And is this doable using present technology?
One thing to remember is that a super-effective scout ship that is highly vulnerable to getting beaten to death by enemy cruisers and 'gun frigates' in the Vanguard phase is going to run into a lot of problems. This is the big reason people are leery about the [i}Kepler[/i] as a scout ship, since it already comes pretty close to the performance envelope you describe. S8 D5 isn't THAT much worse than S9 D7.
We have seen that H2 L3 frigates escape the Vanguard phase with plenty of shield to spare. The only ship that got beaten up badly was an Oberth. That shows to me that there is plenty of margin for supposed "low" durability ships, as in ships with ~6 points of durability.
Plus, "Combat Frigate Stats" would including some 8 points of durability.
We have seen that H2 L3 frigates escape the Vanguard phase with plenty of shield to spare. The only ship that got beaten up badly was an Oberth. That shows to me that there is plenty of margin for supposed "low" durability ships, as in ships with ~6 points of durability.
Bear in mind that our future enemies will tend to have bigger guns. If your projections for what the Cardassian cruiser refits will look like are accurate, they're going to be hitting a lot harder than most of the opposition we've faced so far in the Vanguard phases.
I don't remember if we were using the current iteration of the combat engine at Lora III, but the Sydraxians literally do not have any ships with firepower greater than Combat 4.
The Licori had quite a few frigates and light cruisers that were on the weedy side, and a relative handful of cruisers and battleships with C5 or C6- and we took quite a few frigate casualties in battle against the Licori.
By contrast, 5-10 years from now the Cardassians' median threat during the Vanguard is a Jaldun-bis with (by your own predictions) a Combat 5; there will be a considerable number of Kaldar-bis ships that may enter Vanguard phase and (by your predictions) will have Combat 7. The lightest-hitting ships we can expect to face will be 'gun Takaakis' at Combat 4.
Building frigates capable of surviving the Vanguard phase against that threat level is a somewhat different order of problem than building to face an opponent whose typical Combat scores are more like three or four.
Most of what you just read was an argument that our next generation 'combat escort' needs to be a 'generalist escort' in all but name. And that in the future we may want to build new heavy cruiser designs. Eating militarization to build a 'pure combat' escort that may be overgunned and under-sensored and under-engined compared to what we need... yeah, I'm not seeing it.
