To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine

OneirosTheWriter said:

I may have to modify the wording of the big fleetball so extra fleetballs can be declared when you have very different fronts/theatres to fight. In practical terms though, DB is about having a big striking arm that you hold back from the defences and then either try to figure out where the enemy fleetball is, or deploy to whatever front you want to launch an assault on and then pull back if things run out of steam or you Be Iron Wolf In Stellaris.

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Well, the thing about Decisive Battle doctrine is that it promotes a strategy of utterly crushing minor flanking enemies with, well, decisive battles. This is basically what we did in the Gabriel Expanse; we fought two big battles that completely knocked a minor power out of the region and broke their political system. The battles happened to be fought at enemy bases, but their fortifications and colonies didn't really play nearly as big a role as their ships. And we made absolutely no effort to avoid their ships while taking out the bases.

Then you bring the doomstack to bear on your main enemy, after clearing your flanks.

Alternatively, you pursue the equivalent of the WWII "Europe First" strategy and throw the doomstack at the main enemy directly, right away, while relying on the other 50-75% of your navy to hold the minor threats at bay. This would have been a dangerous strategy for us back in 2310, but it's likely to work a bit better now, as far as I can tell from the balance of forces.

Gravitas Hunt said:

That's the hard part... but a bit of browsing Wikiquote has yielded the following, which feels like it might be vaguely Amarki? IDK, but it's paraphrased from Lord of Light (works better out of context though).

Edit to ask: Would this one be preferable?

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Tisana Bessle would squee, because 'fire' and 'flame' are (at least in her native island chain) common metonyms for honor, virtue, and the humanoid spirit.

AlphaDelta said:

The Amarki Renaissance probably happened around Salnas's thesis defense.

What would one of her quotes be?

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Actually, "look upon the fire, or remain forever ignorant" sounds pretty good for a Salnas quote. Yes, confronting the truth is hurty and uncomfortable and vaguely face-searing. You still gotta do it.

Otherwise, Salnas will correct your math. Or cut you. Or cut you while correcting your math.

[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Base Strike Doctrine

[X] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Repair

Iron Wolf said:

"Wield First The Sword of Truth"

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I like this one, although as a phrase I'd do it without the capitals. "Wield first the sword of truth"

Iron Wolf said:

"Wield First The Sword of Truth"

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But that book series was crap.

Simon_Jester said:

I suspect that if we adopt Base Strike, Starfleet Tactical will default to organizing our fleet into, oh... six, eight, ten, however many major task forces along the frontiers. We'll get yes/no votes on what to do with them, same as during the Licori War. And they'll be of roughly comparable size, as in the Licori War.

By contrast, with Decisive Battle, we're likely to get a whole lot of significantly smaller task forces, but one really big task force.

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My current expectation, if we are Decisive, is that we get a handful of small task forces that are detailed for defence/cleanup, and one major fleet which in turn has at least three (more if the numbers of hulls are there) internal task forces.

So we might have TF10 on the core flank, TF 11 on the rim flank, while TF12.1, TF12.2 and TF12.3 are moving up the centre. Commodores/Rear Admirals in change of each task force, and a Rear or Vice Admiral riding herd on the main thrust.

OneirosTheWriter said:

PREREQS - Who Dares Wins
In Excelsis
Sometimes today's explorer can still serve as tomorrow's jack-of-all-trades.

(Able to nominate one class with an Explorer role for the following)
0 / 25 Shipyard Veterancy (Nominated Capital Ship reduces construction time by 25%)
0 / 25 Automation Update (Crew Requirements on this ship reduced by 20%, rounded down)

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Wow. Excelsis was fixed big time!

Why so many votes for Decisive Battle? It seems boring and it simply didn't work in real life.

chriswriter90 said:

Why so many votes for Decisive Battle? It seems boring and it simply didn't work in real life.

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Because people like fleet-murder-death-kill balls.

chriswriter90 said:

Why so many votes for Decisive Battle? It seems boring and it simply didn't work in real life.

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I'm voting for it mainly for United Starfleet, Hand in Hand, and Arsenal of Liberty, but the other stuff is nice too.

And I don't care what worked in real life.

chriswriter90 said:

Why so many votes for Decisive Battle? It seems boring and it simply didn't work in real life.

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...perhaps you might like to read the discussion? There are several answers to your question given.

In real life, it proved to be ineffective. In-game, however, it is a viable doctrine to follow.

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

UbeOne said:

In real life, it proved to be ineffective. In-game, however, it is a viable doctrine to follow.

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In-game it might be a valid doctrine to follow.

So might wolfpacking Excelsior pairs.

However until the pedal is on the floor and we're actually fighting, whether it was that useful remains something of a question mark.

chriswriter90 said:

Why so many votes for Decisive Battle? It seems boring and it simply didn't work in real life.

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Man, I deleted my draft post about Mahanian Decisive Battle, but there are factors in favor of the 2300s conception that could work better than it did in the 1900s.

Let's see. Okay, keep in mind that there's no real way to compare 2300s doctrine with 1900s doctrine because, not only is it fictional, but it's future fictional, as in, people has been thinking about this for 300 years plus the research done into it. I can't say with certainty that 2300s doctrine has any points of comparison to 1900s, and neither can anyone else. It would even be difficult for Oneiros. It's the equivalent of technobabble.

That said, Mahanian decisive battle theory encouraged gaining control of the seas by destroying the bulk of the enemy fleet, and using that control to enact political goals (through things like blockade, invasion, etc). This is very much a reduced version, but Mahanian decisive battle relied on:
- Ability to force battles.
- Ability to ensure that battle was genuinely decisive.
- Ability to gain control of the seas after gaining superiority in ships.
- Ability to use control of the seas to enact policy and strongly influence or decide the war on land.

Where it fell apart in practice was:
- Adherents couldn't reliably force battles.
- Even battles that should have been decisive were not. Industrial output beat temporary advantage gained from big wins.
- Control of the seas wasn't actually achievable with superiority in ships. Submarines and then aircraft meant you needed more than just superiority in fighting ships.
- Control of the seas did not necessarily lead to achievement of war goals. As an objective, it didn't do anything in of itself. Mahan also relied on control and contesting of key strategic locations, but in practice those locations were less crucial than he made them out to be.


Now, I would say that the quest's 2300s decisive battle theory is actually quite a bit better than Mahanian theory.
- Ability to force battles remains... iffy, but at the very least, there are more forcing options, because freedom to attack orbitals and what you can do once in control of orbitals are far more devastating than 1900s options.
- Ships that are damaged in space don't often get away. Industrial output isn't to the point where it can out-produce losses. Battles can be genuinely decisive, or can be attritional instead.
- Wolf packs are the equivalent of submarines, but in any event, 2300s decisive battle theory doesn't necessarily aim for control of space as the goal, but for destruction of the enemy ability to enforce their will. That's because...
- Control of orbitals is everything in space warfare. And by decisively defeating enough fleets, you can take orbitals at will, which lets you achieve war goals. Even if we don't agree with "phasers over Cardassia Prime" I think everyone does agree that if it were to happen we would have won.

That said, the big problems I have with 2300s decisive battle theory when talking in 1900s terms still lie in the ability to achieve a genuinely decisive battle.

And yes, the comparison is stupid and it's stupid to argue it. Take this whole post as a matter of vague opinion.

[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine

I posted a while ago about it being better for unknown unknowns, so I should vote too.

tbh it'll be hilarious (not really) if we and the Cardassians both fleetball and then

A ) mutually wipe each other out in a huge, hundred-ship+ brawl that leaves no side able to decisively contest fixed defenses with the remaining fleet.

or

B ) turn on the Benny Hill theme and spend most of the war chasing each other's fleet balls.

I think the biggest difference between the 1900 version and 2300 version is what you mentioned about controlling the orbitals. In real life, navies had not ability to strike at the industrial heart which was away from the coast, even only slightly inland would protect it while here a navy can go through and tear industry to shreds leaving planets isolated.

As for making sure a battle is decisive I think we can we saw that with Nash ending the Licori war off the amazing intercept battle, we also were able to do so in two battles against the Sydraxians. Now those are not peer powers, but one or two good battles in terms of ships disabled and destroyed can swing things in our favor by enough to allow detached forces to begin cutting supply lines. And with how things are now if you can't keep your various Loops free from blockade your industry and thus shipbuilding ability grinds to a halt. I think what Offensive Doctrine does is offer three paths for doing so.

Wolf Pack goes for the freighters directly, sending multiple small task forces out to destroy the shipping capability and disrupt the various loops, along with working to hit any isolated warship when they have good odds. The wolf packs stay in enemy space for extended durations of time, keeping up the harassment. In the end it tries to starve industry, bases and fleets. Once it has starved it enough it will then swoop in and start picking off mobile units and infrastructure.

Base Strike is for fewer larger fleets that make strikes at key infrastructure before falling back to regroup, resupply and repair for the next strike. In the end it slowly takes out the infrastructure that allows a fleet to remain mobilized. At that point base strike then moves in and removes the various enemy mobile units.

Decisive Battle focuses on reducing the enemies mobile forces, and once that is done goes and mops up fixed defenses and infrastructure.

So all three have the same end goal, they just have different ways they go about reaching it.

kyuden said:

[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine

I'm choosing decisive battle, not because of any mechanical benefits but because of the intended targets. Decisive battle aims to hit enemy fleets, an almost purely military target that will have minimal civilian casualties. Base strike will hit infrastructure, that while a military target is likely to have significant civilian casualties (historically most military shipyards have a significant civilian or semi-civilian workforce).

I just can't see Starfleet having a full-throated commitment to an offensive doctrine that accepts (as it focus) that we will be aiming to take actions that cause civilian casualties.

[X] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Repair

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But will Cardassians have any civilians on military outposts?

They don't have science outposts or stations, and their starbases are strictly military.

I don't see why that should be a concern.

chriswriter90 said:

Wow. Excelsis was fixed big time!

Why so many votes for Decisive Battle? It seems boring and it simply didn't work in real life.

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On the contrary, it worked quite well on any number of occasions. A major battle can massively disrupt someone's ability to continue the war, or to hold territory.

It didn't work for the Japanese in World War Two because they made bad plans and hit the limit of what their existing fleet was capable of, while lacking the industry to keep up with their opponents in an ongoing war. It's worked fine for a lot of other people in a lot of other times and places.

[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine
Purely because Cardassians are explicitly strong against Base Strike.

""Strong""

Also basing the doctrinal choice based on one opponent is poor decision making.

OneirosTheWriter said:

Captain Demora Sulu is taking in an away team personally with trusted team members. As well, her skill with diplomacy and infiltration has filtered down to her crew.
[C5 S6 P7 H7 N6]
[EC Security Base team gain +1 P]
[One Re-roll allowed]

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Mark my words, Demora's adventures and the heart attacks she'll give her father will ultimately cause Admiral Sulu's retirement sooner or later, hopefully later.

He may be a crafty bundle of steely nerves, but it's got to be nerve-wracking to read up to once a quarter something like:

OneirosTheWriter said:

[Chief of Staff's NB: Sorry you had to read that, Admiral, but I can assure you that your daughter is still fully fit for duty and unharmed]

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more so if he's aware of a risky operation involving his daughter months in advance.

---

OneirosTheWriter said:

Overall Command - Captain Demora Sulu, USS Voshov
Second in Command - Commander Antonio Hernandez, Chief, Office 37

Special Projects Security
- Office 37 - Tasked with claiming entry points on the Sdranach.
-- Team Cotton (Operators) - (C5 S5 P5 H6 N10) - Beachhead Team
-- Team Candle (Operators) - (C5 S5 P5 H6 N10) - Beachhead Team
Irregular Operations
- Office 20 - Tasked with taking key points on the Sdranach.
-- Team Green (Operators) - (C4 S6 P5 H4 N10) - Bridge Crew
-- Team Gold (Operators) - (C4 S6 P5 H4 N10) - Engineering Spaces
Field Intel
- Office 30 - Tasked with locking out controls
-- Team Ginger (Hacking Team) - (C2 S8 P7 H4 N8) - Bridge Crew
-- Team Gambol (Hacking Team) - (C2 S8 P7 H4 N8) - Engineering Spaces
Starfleet Security
- USS Voshov Security Department - Tasked with making contact with Vanguard leaders in the berth command
-- Team Red (Capt Sulu) - (C5 S6 P7 H7 N6) - Enter Berth Command zone, make contact
-- Team Blue (Lt Wycombe) - (C3 S5 P6 H4 N12) - Protect Team Red

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That's quite the sizable force. 74 operatives and personnel, plus the Churnax and whatever local support can be scrounged up.

Contrast this with the sabotage of the Anoxa superlaser:

OneirosTheWriter said:

Overall Command - Commander Iltoor Paralan, Chief, Office 24

Irregular Operations
- Office 10 - Tasked with assault on Orbital Stations and extraction
-- Team Blue & Purple (Operators) - (C6 S6 P6 H6 N10) - Entry Team Station A
-- Team Red & Silver (Operators) - (C6 S6 P6 H6 N10) - Entry Team Station B
-- Team Gold (Electronics) - (C5 S11 P6 H4 N8) - Split and hack into station systems
-- Team Green (Demolitions) - (C5 S6 P6 H5 N8) - Join up with Office 24
-- Team Orange (Pathfinder) - (C5 S6 P9 H6 N8) - Help Office 24 enter city
Special Projects Security
- Office 24 - Tasked with destruction of superlaser mechanism, power generation
-- Team Slipper (Breach) - (C6 S4 P6 H7 N10) -
-- Team Songbird (Operators) - (C6 S5 P7 H6 N10) -
-- Team Sunshine (Operators) - (C6 S5 P7 H6 N10) -
-- Team Seabed (Operators) - (C6 S5 P7 H6 N10) -
-- Team Rainfall (Heavy) - (C6 S3 P3 H6 N10) -
-- Team Ripple (Marksman) - (C6 S5 P5 H3 N2)

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OneirosTheWriter said:

Ked Paddah has a team to reinforce Team Sunshine - Team Rose - (C4 S3 P7 H3 N12)

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... a total of 108 operatives, minus 1 traitor, and the support of the Hummingbird.

AlphaDelta said:

But will Cardassians have any civilians on military outposts?

They don't have science outposts or stations, and their starbases are strictly military.

I don't see why that should be a concern.

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You've made an assertion that I don't believe you have the ability to back-up. You've also seemingly decided that Base Strike only sets the strategic intent of our war planners to being attacks on outposts, when I see it being a wider intent to attack infrastructure, of which outposts are only a small component.

lbmaian said:

Mark my words, Demora's adventures and the heart attacks she'll give her father will ultimately cause Admiral Sulu's retirement sooner or later, hopefully later.

He may be a crafty bundle of steely nerves, but it's got to be nerve-wracking to read up to once a quarter something like:

more so if he's aware of a risky operation involving his daughter months in advance.

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I dunno... It seems like to me that Demora only got her +1 to espionage from learning at her father's knee (metaphorically). And I'm betting we (that is, her dad) actually assigned her to all these espionage jobs trusting she's more qualified for it than most. Certainly, these kind of intelligence ops don't seem to be in Linderly's comfort zone, which was why he went to then-VA Sulu the last time he needed them.

As of the time of writing, Decisive Battle is winning the vote.
So lets try to work out the implications.

United Fleet Sector:
Outside of the war times, will we have a minimum C or D commitment to assign?

If we do, do the ships have that as an additional flag to their regular assignments (i.e. in event of war, we are the first to get called up)?

Or are they assigned only to the Fleet Sector? If so, where do they physically hang out, and do they still respond to events?

25% C Member Fleet commitment - I assume this only kicks in once war has been declared, not 100% of the time.
Just what does this mean in terms of shipping -
Taking the numbers from the To Boldly Go Ships & Deployments page, I don't know how up to date it is, where I can remember changes I am including them (like UES is bringing their Miranda-A count back up to 4)

I am going to assume that all ships have been upgraded to their -A spec if such exists, and all construction on the sheet is finished - it will be several game years before this comes into play after all.
I am going to assume the 1/4 C is rounded up and is the minimum commitment
I am going to assume that Soyuz and old Swarmers and other such older designs have been decommissioned and not count them.

My choices of ships are an attempt to guess in character - it does not mean that my guesses will match up to the reality.

UES - 1 Excelsior-A (7), 3 Renaissance (5), 1 Constitution-B (5), 2 Constellation-A (3), 3 Centaur-A (3), 4 Miranda-A (3) -> 54C -> 14C min required: 1 Excelsior-A, 1 Renaissance, 1 Miranda-A = 15C
VCS - 1 Renaissance (5), 2 Constitution-B (5), 4 Constellation-A (3), 1 Centaur-A (3), 4 Miranda-A (3) -> 42C -> 11C min required: 1 Renaissance, 1 Constellation-A, 1 Miranda-A = 11C
TSS - 1 Excelsior-A (7), 4 Renaissance (5), 1 Constitution-B (5), 3 Constellation-A (3), 2 Centaur-A (3), 6 Miranda-A (3) -> 65C -> 17C min required: 2 Renaissance, 3 Miranda-A = 19C
Andor - 1 Excelsior-A (7), 1 Renaissance (5), 3 Constellation-A (3), 5 Centaur-A (3), 5 Miranda-A (3) -> 51C -> 13C min required: 1 Renaissance, 1 Centaur-A, 2 Miranda-A = 14C
CAS - 3 Riala (6), 6 Hebrinda-A (5), 5 Centaur-A (3), 5 Brieca (2), 4 Calac (2) -> 81C -> 21C min required: 1 Riala, 2 Hebrinda-A, 2 Brieca, 1 Calac = 22C
BDS - 1 Renaissance (5), 3 Patrol Cruiser (3), 2 Centaur-A (3), 6 Patroller-A (2) -> 32C -> 8C min required: 1 Renaissance, 1 Centaur-A = 8C
RDS - 2 Megatortoise (6), 7 Turtleship (4), 7 Oda-Gach (2) -> 54C -> 14C min required: 1 Megatortoise, 1 Turtleship, 2 Oda-Gach = 14C
Caitian - 1 Excelsior-A (7), 4 Fathership (5), 16 New Swarmer (3) -> 75C -> 19C min required: 1 Excelsior-A, 1 Fathership, 4 New Swarmers = 25C (4 Swarmers to a Fathership, needed a little more to go over the minimum)
Apiata - 2 Queenship (4), 5 Light Queenship (4), 8 Forager (2), 17 Stinger (4) -> 72C : 18C min required: 2 Light Queenship, 4 Stingers = 24C (2 Stingers to a Light Queenship, one wasn't enough)
ICS - 1 Renaissance (5), 1 Ship of the Line (5), 3 Frigate (4), 3 Large Escort (4), 6 Combat Escort (3) -> 52C -> 13C min required: 1 Renaissance, 1 Large Escort, 2 Combat Escort = 15C

Running out of time here, so I will cut this off for the moment, but just on the above members, you have:

Capitals
2 Excelsior-A
1 Riala
1 Megatortoise
1 Fathership (with 4 attached New Swarmers)

Cruisers
7 Renaissance
2 Hebrinda-A
1 Turtleship
1 Constellation-A
2 Light Queenships (with 2 each attached Stingers)

Frigates
2 Brieca
1 Calac
2 Oda-Gach
1 Large Escort
2 Combat Escort
2 Centaur-A
7 Miranda-A

EDIT:
This fleet ball would have to be broken up into multiple Task Forces, just for control purposes.
As such, any Fatherships/Light Queenships should be paired together with no other Capitals (possibly no other Cruisers either?), so that they can work their Swarmer Tactics.