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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Gravitas Hunt said:
I'd actually quite like something original that could be attributed to a non-human member race, but I don't have the right mindset to come up with that kind of thing.
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Well, translations exist.

Come up with something catchy and attribute it to someone.
Gnarker said:
[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Base Strike Doctrine

I suppose what it comes down to in the end for me is that Base Strike seems to synergize best with Forward Defense and Lone Ranger.
Though I'm curious if in the event of an all-in war we could divide Starfleet and member fleets into different doctrinal task forces. Apiata and Caitians off Wolfpacking, a Decisive Battle-group containing the non-Vulcan original three and the Amarki to lend extra weight where needed, and a spread-out Base Strike group that generally holds down the bulk of the frontline. @OneirosTheWriter?
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That is unlikely.

Part of Doctrine is grand strategy. The overall defense will follow whatever doctrine we select. Now, we might be able to request that they conduct independent operations towards a goal.

Nix said:
The Licori are a bad example because they had super science defenses no one else is going to have, were severely outnumbered overall (which made beating their fleet less of an issue) and use Fleet in Being. Most major powers have Forward Defense. The war game we just conducted shows that fixed defenses are normally not too much of an issue if you bring a strong enough force. And the Cardassians in particular have the Decisive Battle and Forward Defense combination, so a war with them is very likely to involve a decisive battle anyway.
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However, if we destroy their fleet, they'll rebuild and come back with more.

To "solve" the Cardassian problem, the Starbases and shipyards must go.
 
AlphaDelta said:
However, if we destroy their fleet, they'll rebuild and come back with more.

To "solve" the Cardassian problem, the Starbases and shipyards must go.
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Um, they can rebuild those as well though. It might take longer if they also have to rebuild their fleet afterwards, but unless they experience a regime change, the Cardies are going to want a rematch no matter what.

Besides, Decisive Battle doesn't prevent us from also destroying their starbases and shipyards.
 
Nix said:
The Licori are a bad example because minefields were nerfed half-way through the campaign, they had super science defenses no one else is going to have, were severely outnumbered overall (which made beating their fleet less of an issue) and use Fleet in Being. Most major powers have Forward Defense. The war game we just conducted shows that fixed defenses are normally not too much of an issue if you bring a strong enough force. And the Cardassians in particular have the Decisive Battle and Forward Defense combination, so a war with them is very likely to involve a decisive battle anyway.
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How do you know there won't be further specialized defenses?

Even leaving aside the super-science their defenses proved very durable and deadly when protected with a fleet. We saw this with the wargame that included the light queenship. Starbases can be a big force multiplier. Specializing to better neutralize this force multiplier and enhance our own force multipliers seems more effective than more fleetballing -- indeed, fleetballing probably isn't a good idea for how stretched the Federation is.
 
Iron Wolf said:
How do you know there won't be further specialized defenses?

Even leaving aside the super-science their defenses proved very durable and deadly when protected with a fleet. We saw this with the wargame that included the light queenship. Starbases can be a big force multiplier. Specializing to better neutralize this force multiplier and enhance our own force multipliers seems more effective than more fleetballing -- indeed, fleetballing probably isn't a good idea for how stretched the Federation is.
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On the contrary, fleetballing is the most versatile solution there is. Specialized doctrines and tactics are good in certain situations, but "more ships!" can be used as a solution to basically every problem.
 
Random Member said:
On the contrary, fleetballing is the most versatile solution there is. Specialized doctrines and tactics are good in certain situations, but "more ships!" can be used as a solution to basically every problem.
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You don't seem a problem with drawing 25% of member fleet strength -- some of them bordering different hostile powers -- and a portion of Starfleet assets and keeping them tied up somewhere? There's going to be multiple fronts to this war, after all.

Useful if you want to keep a literal fleet in being defensively but I think we'd be better off by maintaining a more even distribution of assets along our home fronts and strengthening the starbases they'll rally around. Nevermind having better ability to end the enemy ability to send more ships at us.
 
Random Member said:
15% more Academy intake. How would that influence our build plans btw?
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To my knowledge, our current build plans at the moment are less focused upon specific resources and more focused upon crew considerations; that is to say, we could build bigger and better ships in the cruiser and frigate categories, (primarily, Renaissance-class over the few Constellation-As we've got coming up) but we wouldn't have the crew necessary to maintain similar shipbuilding pace.
So a 15% increase in Academy intake would probably move the bottleneck back into the resources side of the equation.

Keeping in mind, there will always be a bottleneck. Either resources, crew, or yard space.

These last several snakepits, I think we've increased all of them pretty much as much a reasonably possible; we've expanded the academy who remembers how many times, added colonies whenever possible and ditto for mines, and keep expanding our shipyards at a fairly rapid pace.
 
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Iron Wolf said:
You don't seem a problem with drawing 25% of member fleet strength -- some of them bordering different hostile powers -- and a portion of Starfleet assets and keeping them tied up somewhere? There's going to be multiple fronts to this war, after all.
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It's not like we're sending them off to somewhere where they aren't needed.
Iron Wolf said:
Useful if you want to keep a literal fleet in being defensively but I think we'd be better off by maintaining a more even distribution of assets along our home fronts and strengthening the starbases they'll rally around. Nevermind having better ability to end the enemy ability to send more ships at us.
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I assume you're talking about possible war with the Cardassians, right? If so, do remember that they have Decisive Battle + Forward Defence. Now, Oneiros has already pointed out that Base Strike has problems against Forward Defence.
OneirosTheWriter said:
I suppose the other thing you might consider is how it might correspond to target defensive doctrines. Decisive Battle will be somewhat stymied by a Fleet in Being defensive approach, for instance. Base Strike runs into problems with Forward Defence. Wolf Pack is an outlier in which it doesn't really think on those terms.
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If Base Strike has problems with Forward Defence and Decisive Battle with Fleet in Being, that means Decisive Battle shouldn't have (as many) problems against Forward Defence.

And with the Cardies having Decisive Battle, they'll make their own fleetball and attack our bases (reminder that Forward Defence is our defensive doctrice) with overwhelming force. If we distribute our assets along multiple fronts, it's unlikely that they'd all be strong enough to hold the Cardassian fleetball back. And so long as a single front is weak enough for the fleetball to get through, they'll throw it at that one.

I think the best way to deal with the Cardassian fleetball is to create our own doomstack. Because I'm certain that we can create a bigger one, which means we'd normally win unless the combat generator starts to do strange things. And Decisive Battle should also be better at dealing with their Forward Defence than Base Strike.
 
Hmm. Our most constrained crew income, Officers, is just a bit short of 12 points per year. Each academy expansion increases that by 1. Decisive Battle's 15% bonus, at the moment, is equivalent to 1.8 points per year, or about two academy expansions. So for now, it seems like a nice bonus, but honestly not all that essential. Granted this will change eventually as we continue to grow, as it's a multiplicative bonus rather than an additive one like Acemy Expansions are.

Say we expand by more than a hundred percent, up to a nice round number of 30 Officers per year. 15% of that equals 4.5 points, or four and a half crew expansions. Again, a very nice bonus, but I'm still unsure if over that timeframe we couldn't simply get the four and a half extra Academy Expansions instead, in addition to the, what, 12 we'd need to get anyway to get to that base number in the first place in addition to new members and affiliates? So, honestly, unsure.
Complicating the matter is that we're capped at a max of one AX per year, but DB's +15% or not we will outrun that cap eventually as our growth rate accelerates, so I can't imagine that there won't be ways around it.


Random Member said:
I think the best way to deal with the Cardassian fleetball is to create our own doomstack. Because I'm certain that we can create a bigger one, which means we'd normally win unless the combat generator starts to do strange things. And Decisive Battle should also be better at dealing with their Forward Defence than Base Strike.
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Question is, do we actually need Decisive Battle to assembe a doomstack of our own, or would it merely enhance them and make them easier to build? We generally have fairly good control over the combined fleets in a State of Emergency, and I don't recall ever hearing of an upper limit for a fleet, so with our already superior economy and the combat boni from Base Strike, we may actually still be competitive with the Cardassians doomstack-to-doomstack but at the same time more versatile. Plus, as I said before, Base Strike just seems to synergize with our other two doctrines more - Boni to our Forward Defenses, Explorer criticals, plus a guaranteed +1L when outnumbered which with Lone Ranger is the default assumption.
I asked Oneiros about this before, but didn't get an answer yet.
 
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On the other hand, Base Strike has explicit techs for bypassing border zones, so. I'm not actually sure what Forward Defense does to super-stymie us except for putting the goodies slightly out of reach.

And I see that decisive battle fleetball as something very able to be attrited. We can amass our own, we can also park it behind a Starbase and feel more secure with Base Strike. And again, with the additional criticals granted by Base Strike, plus the HP-focus fire, we aren't exactly at uneven odds in a pitched battle with a decisive battle fleet. In fact, under Base Strike we can still fleetball , we're just not tied to it doctrinally.

This is why I support Base Strike -- it is simply much more flexible, and shores up some weaknesses we have.
 
Gnarker said:
Hmm. Our most constrained crew income, Officers, is just a bit short of 12 points per year. Each academy expansion increases that by 1. Decisive Battle's 15% bonus, at the moment, is equivalent to 1.8 points per year, or about two academy expansions. So for now, it seems like a nice bonus, but honestly not all that essential. Granted this will change eventually as we continue to grow, as it's a multiplicative bonus rather than an additive one like Acemy Expansions are.
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1. Academy Expansions increase each category by .5, not 1. So about four Academy Expansions.

2. Enlisted is becoming as big a problem as Officers.

Question is, do we actually need Decisive Battle to assembe a doomstack of our own, or would it merely enhance them and make them easier to build? We generally have fairly good control over the combined fleets in a State of Emergency, and I don't recall ever hearing of an upper limit for a fleet, so with our already superior economy and the combat boni from Base Strike, we may actually still be competitive with the Cardassians doomstack-to-doomstack without being quite so superspecialized.
I asked Oneiros about this before, but didn't get an answer yet.
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That's probably a "it depends on the situation" answer. Though I will say that Decisive Battle is more than just "a lot of ships". It lets us create a United Fleet Sector, which I'm not sure exactly what that will do mechanically, but it has to be something above and beyond assembling a bunch of ships. It's really the one unique thing DB offers that is not replicated or allowed by any other doctrine.

Too bad we don't know what it does.
 
AlphaDelta said:
Come up with something catchy and attribute it to someone.
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That's the hard part... but a bit of browsing Wikiquote has yielded the following, which feels like it might be vaguely Amarki? IDK, but it's paraphrased from Lord of Light (works better out of context though).
Mahasamatman sort of said:
Look upon the fire, or remain forever ignorant.
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Edit to ask: Would this one be preferable?
 
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right now i think we are banking on the cost of open war being higher then fighting over one very open border

if we can make it cost them a lot too get true the outer defense line, the cost of there attack might be more then we lose in defense.
in the aftermath of that i say we take what we can and maybe take a system or 2 before seeing about peace talks?

at least that would be my general somewhat plan if war broke out right now.

failing that i say we keep going with the intel wars and the political pushing on there client`s
 
Random Member said:
Um, they can rebuild those as well though. It might take longer if they also have to rebuild their fleet afterwards, but unless they experience a regime change, the Cardies are going to want a rematch no matter what.
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Specifically, any orbital defenses over Cardassia Prime must be destroyed.

Ambassadors over Cardassia Prime is the only way to end this.

Gravitas Hunt said:
That's the hard part... but a bit of browsing Wikiquote has yielded the following, which feels like it might be vaguely Amarki? IDK, but it's paraphrased from Lord of Light (works better out of context though).
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How do these sound?

Go boldly beyond, or remain forever ignorant.
Set forth and illuminate the darkness

Something something wield the fire something

The Amarki Renaissance probably happened around Salnas's thesis defense.

What would one of her quotes be?
 
AlphaDelta said:
Specifically, any orbital defenses over Cardassia Prime must be destroyed.

Ambassadors over Cardassia Prime is the only way to end this.


How do these sound?

Go boldly beyond, or remain forever ignorant.
Set forth and illuminate the darkness

Something something wield the fire something

The Amarki Renaissance probably happened around Salnas's thesis defense.

What would one of her quotes be?
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"In conclusion, the heliocentric model cannot be reffffuuuck I'm losing too much blood."
 
Gnarker said:
Say we expand by more than a hundred percent, up to a nice round number of 30 Officers per year. 15% of that equals 4.5 points, or four and a half crew expansions. Again, a very nice bonus, but I'm still unsure if over that timeframe we couldn't simply get the four and a half extra Academy Expansions instead, in addition to the, what, 12 we'd need to get anyway to get to that base number in the first place in addition to new members and affiliates? So, honestly, unsure.
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You forget that Academy Expansions cost PP, and research does not.
 
AlphaDelta said:
Specifically, any orbital defenses over Cardassia Prime must be destroyed.

Ambassadors over Cardassia Prime is the only way to end this.
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I don't know, honestly. I think they would actually give up earlier. Once the Cardassians realize they are losing, they must balance the humiliation of a peace against the humiliation of further defeats. Putting Ambassadors in orbit of Cardassia Prime will wreck the government of the Union. We know it. They know it. They will try to avoid it, even if it means accepting other humiliations that may wreck their government. Some survival chance is better than none.

Hazard said:
You forget that Academy Expansions cost PP, and research does not.
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RP is an even more finite resource in any given year than PP, in absolute terms at least. Currently we have too few teams to make use of it, but that will not last.
 
AlphaDelta said:
Specifically, any orbital defenses over Cardassia Prime must be destroyed.

Ambassadors over Cardassia Prime is the only way to end this.
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That or a gradual boring old political reformation on the part of the Cardassians as an up-and-coming generation feels secure in their great power status and wonders what is really to be gained by antagonizing the United Federation of Planets, and we move to a true non-aggression pact.

How do these sound?

Go boldly beyond, or remain forever ignorant.
Set forth and illuminate the darkness

Something something wield the fire something

The Amarki Renaissance probably happened around Salnas's thesis defense.

What would one of her quotes be?
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You have to go a little Stan Lee pseudo-Shakespearean for the Amarki IMO. But if we wanted t go ultra-short and pithy.

"Lest Darkness Fall"
 
@Nix out of curiosity, how many ships should we expect will be in skirmish in a good sized battle? I've been playing with a specialized skirmish/minesweeper design for fun.
 
Forgothrax said:
@Nix out of curiosity, how many ships should we expect will be in skirmish in a good sized battle? I've been playing with a specialized skirmish/minesweeper design for fun.
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We don't really know, it usually seems to be around 25-30% of our fleet, but in the largest example that was 5 out of 17 ships, so who knows whether that will hold for larger battles.
 
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