I can't remember how to format my vote for anything labeled as a 'base plan' without mucking up the tally software, so I'll let that slide. That said...

[X] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Emitters

[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Base Strike Doctrine

[X] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Combat

[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Starfleet Infectious Diseases Institute, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
 
e: Vote merges for mis-spellings applied.

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 2408 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 60182-60311]
##### NetTally 1.9.8
Task: PLAN
[X][PLAN] Plan Re-balancing Analysis
-[X] San Francisco Fleetyards : 2320s Starship Safety
-[X] Inid Uttar Institute : 2330s Anti-Cloaking Sensors
-[X] Admiral Lathriss : Mutual Support
-[X] Kuznetsova's Tiger Team : Klingon Research
-[X] Technocracy Interstellar Ministry : Cardassian Research
No. of Votes: 26
Plan: ◈Re-balancing Analysis

Aeondrac
aledeth
AlphaDelta
Briefvoice
Chacmon
charysa
Deathbybunnies
Derek58
Forgothrax
Gingganz
Goat
HearthBorn
Iron Wolf
Joshrand1982
MS-21H 'Hawke'
Night
Night_stalker
Nix
pbluekan
pheonix89
Random Member
SynchronizedWritersBlock
tryrar
UberJJK
Vehrec
Void Stalker

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: SHIELDS
[X][SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Emitters
No. of Votes: 18
Nix
Aeondrac
aledeth
Chacmon
Deathbybunnies
Derek58
Forgothrax
Goat
Iron Wolf
Joshrand1982
pbluekan
pheonix89
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
tryrar
UberJJK
Vehrec
Void Stalker
[X][SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Shields
No. of Votes: 6
Briefvoice
AlphaDelta
Gingganz
HearthBorn
MS-21H 'Hawke'
Night

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: DOCTRINE
[X][DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine
No. of Votes: 18
Nix
AKuz
aledeth
Briefvoice
Chacmon
dacsan
DarknessSmiles
Derek58
Gingganz
Joshrand1982
MS-21H 'Hawke'
Night_stalker
pbluekan
Random Member
tryrar
UbeOne
UberJJK
Void Stalker
[X][DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division: Base Strike Doctrine
No. of Votes: 11
AlphaDelta
Aeondrac
Goat
HearthBorn
Iron Wolf
Night
pheonix89
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Vebyast
Vehrec

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: STARBASE
[X][STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Combat
No. of Votes: 16
UberJJK
aledeth
AlphaDelta
Briefvoice
Chacmon
charysa
Deathbybunnies
Derek58
Forgothrax
Goat
HearthBorn
Iron Wolf
pheonix89
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Vehrec
[X][STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Repair
No. of Votes: 10
Nix
Aeondrac
Gingganz
Joshrand1982
MS-21H 'Hawke'
Night
Night_stalker
pbluekan
tryrar
Void Stalker

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: BOOST
[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Starfleet Infectious Diseases Institute, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
No. of Votes: 17
Nix
Aeondrac
AlphaDelta
Briefvoice
Chacmon
Derek58
Gingganz
Goat
HearthBorn
Iron Wolf
MS-21H 'Hawke'
Night
Random Member
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Vehrec
Void Stalker
[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Taves Nar, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
No. of Votes: 8
UberJJK
aledeth
Deathbybunnies
Forgothrax
Joshrand1982
Night_stalker
pbluekan
tryrar
[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
No. of Votes: 1
pheonix89
Total No. of Voters: 32
 
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I don't think any of the Offensive Doctrines are trap options or doomed to failure. They'll all work well enough and provide some useful result. Heck, we could have kept chugging along with no offensive doctrine at all and done just fine. They will however likely define the sort of missions our fleet favors in future wars.

This isn't really a vote about picking the 'best' option as it is about picking a style. And I certainly understand the appeal of exciting missions impossible you get from Base Strike, even if I'm voting more for the majestic large fleet movements of Decisive Battle.
 
It seems like you are misunderstanding what the difference between Decisive Battle and Base Strike actually is?

On a strategic level Decisive Battle and Base Strike are actually very similar to each other (at least on the offense) and both are equipped to fight a decisive battle at the enemies base with their entire main fleet (and it's hard to say which doctrine is actually better at it), but in neither case is that a desirable scenario at all, any doctrine that did not try to avoid such an objectively disadvantageous situation where possible would be stupid. It's not that Base Strike is fine with it, both doctrines try to avoid it by dealing with main fleet and fortifications separately, just in somewhat different ways.
To start with, if the enemy only has one location he needs to defend then nothing can be done, they can just keep their main fleet waiting there indefinitely. The key is that you can threaten multiple locations at the same time, and the enemy is forced to either split up (which both Base Strike and Decisive Battle are fine with, Base Strike perhaps a little bit more), or try to move their fleet such that they will defend exactly the place you try to attack. The difference is that Base Strike tries to exploit that situation by slipping past the main fleet and attacking the fortifications somewhere, while Decisive Battle tries to exploit that situation to initiate a battle away from fortifications. Both rely on the enemy being unable to just sit there and wait.

It is true that it might be better if more of the Decisive Battle abilities than just Sensor Pickets dealt with the crucial "initiate a battle" part, just like it might be better if more Base Strike abilities than just Attack Pattern Delta dealt with the cruicial "slip past the fleet" part.

One of my primary points was that Decisive Battle invites defeat in detail by having a large force waiting to initiate battle and smaller forces threatening various installations, which is a situation that Base Strike attempts to avoid by avoiding battle with that fleet entirely.

One of the items I have to predicate this problem on is parity in forces, which is actually going to be a fairly common situation - just look at the GBZ. If for nothing else but game balance reasons, we aren't about to gain superior forces to all of our potential enemies in all zones where we want to win.

Presuming parity in forces, I cannot see a reason that Decisive Battle does not invite defeat in detail in offensive operations.


In part because of the bit at the beginning where it basically reminds anyone who only studies theory to remember that we are merely armchair admirals?
;)

Ha, a little, yes.
 
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One of my primary points was that Decisive Battle invites defeat in detail by having a large force waiting to initiate battle and smaller forces threatening various installations, which is a situation that Base Strike attempts to avoid by avoiding battle with that fleet entirely.

I'm not sure how the "the Fleet is a sector" mechanic for Decisive Battle will actually work, but presumably it does something. Perhaps the enemy has to make rolls to avoid a decisive battle if you roll your United Fleet Zone into their sector, and if they fail they automatically have to fight in space?

One of the items I have to predicate this problem on is parity in forces, which is actually going to be a fairly common situation - just look at the GBZ. If for nothing else but game balance reasons, we aren't about to gain superior forces to all of our potential enemies in all zones where we want to win.

Didn't we just see an example of Decisive Battle in miniature in the GBZ? T'Lorel took the initiative and somehow forces a Cardassian fleet to fight a space battle rather than while defending a base. Maybe Jessica Rivers flew her mini-fleetball at some undefended installation and the Cardassians were forced to either abandon it or intercept in space?
 
On the other hand, Ainsworth did more base strike by knocking the Sydraxians out of there entirely.
I'd actually say that was a mixture of Base Strike and Decisive Battle. We were fighting to secure orbit and there was an installation so it does meet the description of Base Strike:
Focus your fleet power on enemy starbases and systems. Receive a combat bonus when attacking starbases, attempting to secure orbit, or defending against the same.
However it also involved concentrating nearly our entire GBZ force and throwing it against the entirety of the Sydraxian navy in an all or nothing battle:
Concentrate your fleet for all-in battles and receive bonuses in engagements involving large forces.
 
2316.Q3 - Gaen
Less publicly, talks are already underway with both the Graduates and the Vanguard factions that in exchange for a thaw in relations and a renunciation of the Ashalla Pact, the lucrative colony worlds of Lora and Deva could be returned.

So, it's been a few quarters since this was mentioned. I wonder if we'll see the Syndraxians back in the GBZ and another boost to our relations with them sometime soon.
 
So, it's been a few quarters since this was mentioned. I wonder if we'll see the Syndraxians back in the GBZ and another boost to our relations with them sometime soon.

I think most of the player base is fine with letting them have back those two systems in return for at least honest neutrality, if not friendship.
It's how more than that, that could be an issue.
 
This is only slighty tangential, but given how Star Trek space combat works (vast space with tiny but hugely important orbitals, plus knife-fight ranges), many of the turn-of-the-century ideas on naval combat can apply. I'm personally a fan of Corbett over Mahan, and feel that Some Principles of Maritime Strategy is required reading on any armchair admiral's list.
I admit to being less familiar with Corbett than Mahan, but the fundamental problem with applying Corbett's analysis is that it doesn't lead to any of the doctrine trees, and in fact doesn't lead to a coherent strategic vision for us at all. Because at the basic level, Corbett's conclusion as applied to Trek is "command of space is paramount, keep your supply lines open, preserve your fleet."

To which the obvious rejoinder is "yes, obviously, you are totally right... but how?"

Against a cloak-capable opponent, trying to win by pure commerce protection and convoying is almost certainly a losing game, for instance. Maybe the Federation can pull it off with its massive advantage to countercloaking, but it's not going to be easy. Striking at the raiders' visible bases becomes fairly important, in that situation.

Against the Cardassians, the problem of protecting our commerce isn't so much of a problem- but we'd still have to go on the offensive sooner or later or the Cardassians will just outwait us. The main war aim we are likely to have in a war with Cardassia, that we're not likely to achieve naturally just by being us, would be to secure the neutrality of Bajor. We're not getting that without offensive operations.

So it comes back to the offensive.

...

Now, for offensive maritime/space warfare, the Corbettian solution would be the blockade, but blockading doesn't work well in three-dimensional space. Distant blockade isn't going to work. Your ships wind up so spread out that it's not very realistic to expect them to reliably intercept threats- plus, the blockading ships become targets for the enemy fleet in their own right. Furthermore, the enemy's territory is a closed reason that all fits inside a big bubble, and is largely autarkic. A distant blockade becomes indistinguishable from commerce raiding in general under such conditions- and as far as I can tell, you're not advocating Wolfpack doctrine.

So if you're not planning to win a war with a distant blockade of the enemy nation/continent as a whole (the RN strategy during WWI and WWII)... you wind up committed to close blockade. But that only works if you have overwhelming force. You need greater overall numbers, since you need 'lol don't even try' levels of force parked outside each of the enemy's major fleet bases. And you have to stay close to those fleet bases, so that you can prevent the enemy from 'sneaking out' and joining the combined forces of two or more bases in order to crush one of your blockade squadrons. It was the need to prevent this that led to Nelson having to frantically zig-zag all over the Atlantic and Mediterranean during the runup to the Battle of Trafalgar, and frankly Nelson only won at Trafalgar due to the superior fighting qualities of his ships.

All in all, while the defensive side of Corbett's military thinking (as far as I understand it) basically applies to our kind of space warfare fairly well, the offensive side isn't very useful. Corbett's thinking would suggest the idea that we can avoid major battles and just gradually strangle an opponent by blocking off their spacelanes, so long as we keep our own open. This is no more or less practical, in my opinion, than other strategies based on physically destroying enemy ships or bases.

All offensive strategies are based on the assumption that you have superior force, at least locally if not globally.

One of my primary points was that Decisive Battle invites defeat in detail by having a large force waiting to initiate battle and smaller forces threatening various installations, which is a situation that Base Strike attempts to avoid by avoiding battle with that fleet entirely.
Have you read Liddell-Hart's work on the 'indirect approach?'

The classic successful method for winning an offensive victory against a roughly equal force, that has the advantage of being able to defend from fortified places, is different than the method you describe. Sure, Nash and Thuir's method worked for them around Ixaria because they had superior forces, and would have failed without superior force. But that doesn't mean their way only way to do it.

The most effective way of dealing with the situation you're worried about is not to first threaten a defended target, then jump the fleet that moves to reinforce that target with an entirely separate force.

It is to maneuver your force so as to threaten multiple targets, in such close proximity that the enemy cannot wait for you to go on the move before committing reinforcements. Thus, they must either:
1) Reinforce only one target, and risk having the other be utterly crushed, because the ungarrisoned fortifications are too weak to hold off a large force.
2) Reinforce several targets, inviting defeat in detail if the enemy pounces on any one of the targets before it can be reinforced from the others.
3) Launch a counterattack against your threatening force.

There are other variations on this strategy that work, of course. Such as maneuvering to cut the supply line of an enemy force. Then they have a limited time to act before their supplies run out. Again, they have a series of unpalatable options, followed by "or we could attack the force that's giving us trouble."

...

One of the items I have to predicate this problem on is parity in forces, which is actually going to be a fairly common situation - just look at the GBZ. If for nothing else but game balance reasons, we aren't about to gain superior forces to all of our potential enemies in all zones where we want to win.

Presuming parity in forces, I cannot see a reason that Decisive Battle does not invite defeat in detail in offensive operations.
Decisive Battle doctrine strongly encourages concentration of force, rendering defeat in detail unlikely when on the offensive. There are a variety of ways to impel an enemy fleet to give battle against a roughly equal force, without dividing one's command in the face of the enemy.

You seem to be conflating the difficulty of forcing an enemy to give battle against an obviously greater force, with the concern that we may not have a greater force to begin with. To me, these concerns appear mutually exclusive. If we have roughly equal balance of forces compared to the enemy, then by definition the enemy will be much less worried about the possible consequences of fighting us. Under decisive battle doctrines, it then falls upon us to find ways to convince the enemy that we have equal strength by concealing a secret advantage, or to maneuver the enemy into an unfavorable position, or to somehow divide his force as he comes at us to drive us away.
 
I think most of the player base is fine with letting them have back those two systems in return for at least honest neutrality, if not friendship.
It's how more than that, that could be an issue.
I'd happily concede those two systems and the surrounding space. Allowing the Sydraxians to "bulge" coreward and claim much of the Baker Subsector wouldn't be that much of a problem to me. Sure, it's theoretically less resources for us. But it gives the Sydraxians a huge incentive to respect peace with us, reduces any fears they have of being englobed like the Dawiar and Orions. And if we can some day win the Sydraxians over, 'their' resources become 'our' resources, as part of an expanded, mutually friendly definition of 'us.'
 
While we don't have it as a pending vote, for the next time we want to name an Excelsior for a member world (because I can't sleep).

The USS Timekeeper:

The Gaeni ship Timekeeper is one of the most noted navel exploration ships of the Gaen age of Mathamatician-Kings. The Timekeeper was not only the first ship to circumnavigate Gaen, but did so vai the use of the most accurate clock built to that date (the pendulum, still razor sharp to this day to minimize air drag, swings below the master clock of the Gean manufacturing Coop main scheduling office). It's scientific accomplishments were just as notable as it's expirations as it's clock let it measure that the tidal motion on the antipodes of the planet were synchronized, and it's superior mapping let many different tidal mapping efforts combine for a better understanding which proved important later when they proved key to understanding the effects of gravity from the other moons.

When it returned at the end of it's voyage, the captain learned that the kingdom who sent it had been conquered, and so started training it's data to passing kingdom before returning to it's home port. The captain was held captive with the former mathamatician-king who had sent her, and while she never traveled again, the two of them proceeded to make a number of important could contribution in the field of optics.
 
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You know, if there was ANY power I'd expect to have researched multiple doctrine trees and be able to use whichever one they thought was appropriate, it'd be the Klingons.

Think about it. Doctrine researchers tend to be military theorists or experienced generals; the Klingons have a warrior ethos that produces at the high end quite a few thoughtful warrior-poet types. Think of General Chang; I bet he was a doctrine 'research team' for the Klingons up until his death. And I doubt he was the only one.

(Probably an advocate of Base Strike, going by his idea of an 'ideal' campaign against the Federation from the Klingon Academy game)

Moreover, doctrine research affords the possibility of victory not through having superior technology or greater numbers, but by just straight-up being better warriors and tacticians than your enemy. That has to appeal to the Klingon mindset.

So I would bet on the Klingons researching doctrine as avidly as we research, oh, computers or xenopsychology. Their answer to "which doctrine tree do they favor" may well be "whichever one we want this year, and we can switch if we have to, given a bit of time to work on it."

That actually might be one of the Klingon's key mechanical advantages.

The Federation's intrinsic advantage is our overpowered diplomacy and ability to miraculously benefit from poking space anomalies.

The Klingon intrinsic advantage could be the ability to swap between doctrines rapidly and with minimal penalty, or even employ multiple supposedly exclusive doctrines at once via Great Houses.
 
[X] [PLAN] Base Plan Re-balancing Analysis

[X] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Shields
[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Base Strike Doctrine
[X] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Combat

[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Starfleet Infectious Diseases Institute, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
 
One of my primary points was that Decisive Battle invites defeat in detail by having a large force waiting to initiate battle and smaller forces threatening various installations, which is a situation that Base Strike attempts to avoid by avoiding battle with that fleet entirely.

One of the items I have to predicate this problem on is parity in forces, which is actually going to be a fairly common situation - just look at the GBZ. If for nothing else but game balance reasons, we aren't about to gain superior forces to all of our potential enemies in all zones where we want to win.

Presuming parity in forces, I cannot see a reason that Decisive Battle does not invite defeat in detail in offensive operations.
Nothing in Decisive Battle actually calls for splitting off any smaller fleets? The fleet that threatens various installations and the fleet that tries to initiate battle can be one and the same. If the enemy sits and waits somewhere unless baited with a small fleet then generally they are going to lose everywhere else, and if they wait with starting to move until an assault starts somewhere that's even worse because they are never going to be in the right place at the right time. If the enemy fleet tries to reinforce threatened locations then they are subject to being forced into battle while in transit by superior scouting and maneuvering from the Decisive Battle fleet. All that following Decisive Battle doctrine means in this context is a preference for forcing the reinforcing fleet into battle over starting and finishing an assault before it arrives, and obviously there are risks and advantages to either approach. A bait fleet is of course also a possible tactic, but there is nothing forcing anyone to use that tactic when it's disadvantageous.
 
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That actually might be one of the Klingon's key mechanical advantages.

The Federation's intrinsic advantage is our overpowered diplomacy and ability to miraculously benefit from poking space anomalies.

The Klingon intrinsic advantage could be the ability to swap between doctrines rapidly and with minimal penalty, or even employ multiple supposedly exclusive doctrines at once via Great Houses.

We also have that though. Member fleets.
 
That actually might be one of the Klingon's key mechanical advantages.

The Federation's intrinsic advantage is our overpowered diplomacy and ability to miraculously benefit from poking space anomalies.

The Klingon intrinsic advantage could be the ability to swap between doctrines rapidly and with minimal penalty, or even employ multiple supposedly exclusive doctrines at once via Great Houses.
I suspect the Klingons (if this were a game where the Klingons and everyone else were being fully modeled and there was a Klingon Quest running in parallel with ours, et cetera) would have that along with a few other advantages. For example:

1) Much less difficulty procuring crew, although this is likely balanced by resource shortfalls due to the struggle to rebuild Qo'nos.
2) More willingness to commit 'member world' (i.e. Great House) forces to tasks around the Empire, though this is done in exchange for resources and glory going to the Great House that could otherwise have gone to the imperial fleet itself- assuming there IS an imperial fleet as such.

On the other hand I'd also expect more in-stability in the government, occasional rounds of internecine warfare and squabbles that undermine the reputation and discipline of the fleet, and a higher background rate of ships getting eaten by space hazards.

What do the Romulans have?
Good crews that can cope with SCIENCE! problems better than the Klingons if not as well as the Federation. Secret weapons out the wazoo, although some of them are spectacularly hazardous to innocent bystanders on the next planet over. A government more stable than the Klingons (coups yes, civil wars no). A government more supportive of the Fleet than the Federation Council... but conversely, less supportive of any specific individual in the Fleet; expect fairly high turnaround as admirals are forced into retirement or killed off by the Tal Shiar if they get "too successful." Greater internal control over the actions of individual Romulans (not counting the Tal Shiar) than either the Klingons or the Federation really have.
 
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