Someone remind me, but isn't crew about to become a bottleneck for our ship construction? Because Arsenal of Liberty would help with that.

If Decisive Battle allows us to increase our starship production more than Base Strike would, then it's not true that both would lead to the same fleet size.
 
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the whole operation wasn't a raid.
The starbase techs for command and control are all for sector level command and control, for event response. They are irrelevant during battles.
The +1L for defending a starbase still applies when outnumbered, so destoying the starbase first isn't a viable way to circumvent that

None of these statements are logically following ones.

We actually expected, at Ixaria, that we may end up for having to settle for damaging the defenses as much as possible and withdrawing rather than carrying through to an invasion. This was discussed more than once, and our target selection was based on the possiblity of having to make a return visit.

This is not something we have had opportunity to test. Have you discussed this with Onerios? If so, please give a citation. Otherwise, you are merely guessing, and can be safely dismissed as no more valid than anyone else.

The fact that it applies when outnumbered does not at all connect to it continuing when the the starbase no longer exists. You cannot defend a starbase when there is no starbase to defend. Your interpretation is an extremely tortured one that does not make a lick of sense compared to the rules as written.
 
None of these statements are logically following ones.

We actually expected, at Ixaria, that we may end up for having to settle for damaging the defenses as much as possible and withdrawing rather than carrying through to an invasion. This was discussed more than once, and our target selection was based on the possiblity of having to make a return visit.

This is not something we have had opportunity to test. Have you discussed this with Onerios? If so, please give a citation. Otherwise, you are merely guessing, and can be safely dismissed as no more valid than anyone else.

The fact that it applies when outnumbered does not at all connect to it continuing when the the starbase no longer exists. You cannot defend a starbase when there is no starbase to defend. Your interpretation is an extremely tortured one that does not make a lick of sense compared to the rules as written.
I could turn that right back at you.

A failed assault assault is not at all the same thing as a raid, and raid is not the logical complement of invasion.

It's unclear what you are referring to here, but if you mean the effect of technologies: Those are stated in the description. That "+1 to Response Rolls of ships in sector" or " Increase Event Rate in Systems with Starbases" are irrelevant in battle is not something that needs to be tested or discussed with Oneiros, it's very obvious based on basic knowledge of how those parts of the game work. If you want to claim that a tech does something beyond that the burden of proof is on your side.

"Gain +1 L when outnumbered or defending a Starbase". Defending a starbase is not at all a necessary condition for the bonus, being outnumbered regardless of the situation is sufficient. The description could not possibly be any clearer on that.
 
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[X] [PLAN] Base Plan Re-balancing Analysis

[X] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Emitters

[X] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Combat

[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Taves Nar, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.

Dropping Doctrine, because I'm pretty unsure now.
 
Sector Command hasn't cleared further subsectors for the prospectors, due a combination of trying to consolidate the resources already discovered, and the fact that the fleet forces are tied down protecting those sites.

So we have insufficient fleet to explore any further in the GBZ ?

Is there any reason they are all idling there for (2?) years,rather then mapping the gaps in other zones?

I don't think we have the ability to direct surveying, but just from the commanders point of view, shouldnt someone be getting fired over just doing nothing for multiple years?
 
So we have insufficient fleet to explore any further in the GBZ ?

Is there any reason they are all idling there for (2?) years,rather then mapping the gaps in other zones?

I don't think we have the ability to direct surveying, but just from the commanders point of view, shouldnt someone be getting fired over just doing nothing for multiple years?
They aren't "doing nothing", they are protecting the sites we have already discovered against raids.
 
I could turn that right back at you.

No, you couldn't, because it only gets more incredibly tortured and unsustainable.

It doesn't matter if you think it was a failed assault or a raid, it matters what our objectives were and how we pursued them. Our objective was to clear the way for a possible invasion by the destruction of specific targets. This is raiding at its most simple: destruction of particular objectives to support future operations. The fact we had enough force left over in the end to launch the invasion immediately was a happy coincidence, but not a given, and our planning acknowledged this both beforehand and during the battle. This is what actually happened. If you wish to dispute it, you will need to prove that it is not what happened. As you have utterly failed to do that, you may be safely ignored.

The techs that you are thinking of, perhaps, but there are techs that state "+1D for ships in sector" or the like. You have not addressed this. It also falls to the interesting assumption that skirmishing or the like would not be treated as an event roll, which you actually don't know. Given the statements of the various things about joining or denying battle rolls and the times we've had encounters in the GBZ on the small scale or the times where we've had contacts that did not result in fire being exchanged in the same area, this assumption seems...questionable.

Rules As Written. Defending a starbase grants +1L. You cannot defend a starbase that does not exist. If the starbase ceases to exist, the +1L logically does as well, under the rules as written. You can twist things however you like, but that's not what the actual words are. Unless Oneiros says otherwise or the rules are changed, the only way to interpret them we have is in the way they are actually written down.
 
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Rules As Written. Defending a starbase grants +1L. You cannot defend a starbase that does not exist. If the starbase ceases to exist, the +1L logically does as well, under the rules as written. You can twist things however you like, but that's not what the actual words are. Unless Oneiros says otherwise or the rules are changed, the only way to interpret them we have is in the way they are actually written down
I haven't followed the rest of your argument, but given how the system works I think it's fairly safe to assume that if the battle starts out as defending a Starbase, Oneiros isn't going to remove the +1L if the Starbase dies before the battle ends - I'm not sure he even can, unless he reaches in and does it manually.
 
The surveyor ships aren't going to survey systems without an escort. That's just asking them to be raided.

This argument is circular, so the surveyors have been on R&R for 2+ years. Ergo they should be moved to other zones to conduct missions until the GBZ command is ready to push out. Having the entire starfleet surveyor corps idle for multiple years is egregiously bad,
 
[X] [PLAN] Plan Re-balancing Analysis

[X] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Emitters
[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine
[X] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Combat

[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Starfleet Infectious Diseases Institute, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4
 
This argument is circular, so the surveyors have been on R&R for 2+ years. Ergo they should be moved to other zones to conduct missions until the GBZ command is ready to push out. Having the entire starfleet surveyor corps idle for multiple years is egregiously bad,

Certainly not for 2+ years. Where are you getting that? This is from 2317.Q1

Starfleet:
USS Nicholas Barton, NCC-632, Prospector (- / 34 Baker / -) - 34 Baker I - 30sr collectible found, to be retrieved next quarter
USS Somak, NCC-635, Prospector (- / - / - ) - Holding

This is from 2316.Q4
Prospecting
Key: (This Quarter / Last Quarter / Next Quarter) - Results of Last Quarter

Starfleet:
USS Nicholas Barton, NCC-632, Prospector (34 Baker / 21 Baker / -) - 21 Baker, boring wash
USS Somak, NCC-635, Prospector (- / - / - ) - Returned to Collie Outpost

The Nicholas Barton has been prospecting very recently. I expect they'll go back out again this quarter or the next.
 
The surveyor ships are patrolling to stop raiders? What's the GBZ fleet doing then?

Cardassians see a Starfleet Survey Ship on their sensors, with no sign of escorts anywhere near it.
That ship's expected lifespan immediately plummets.
We would do the same (though probably ask the crew nicely to jump in their escape pods being blowing it up)

We have three tasks forces in the GBZ, TF1, TF2 & TF6.
TF1 appears to be focused in the sectors closest to the Cardassian claims, acting as both a deterrent for Cardassian adventures into our space and as a launch platform for raiding Cardassian claims (which it recently did, gutting one of the Cardassian task forces)
TF2 is tasked with escorting the cargo ships.
TF6 appears to be patrolling the core-ward sections of the GBZ, amongst other things stopping the Cardassians from sneaking ships through to the Syndraxians.

Once we either get enough defences into the Dorsata/Firefly/Miele systems that we feel that they can hold long enough for help to come running, the Cardassians give up on sneaking through the core-ward sectors, or we get enough additional ships to make another task force, our surveyors are going to be lacking guardians, and it is too dangerous to send them out alone.
 
No, you couldn't, because it only gets more incredibly tortured and unsustainable.

It doesn't matter if you think it was a failed assault or a raid, it matters what our objectives were and how we pursued them. Our objective was to clear the way for a possible invasion by the destruction of specific targets. This is raiding at its most simple: destruction of particular objectives to support future operations. The fact we had enough force left over in the end to launch the invasion immediately was a happy coincidence, but not a given, and our planning acknowledged this both beforehand and during the battle. This is what actually happened. If you wish to dispute it, you will need to prove that it is not what happened. As you have utterly failed to do that, you may be safely ignored.

The techs that you are thinking of, perhaps, but there are techs that state "+1D for ships in sector" or the like. You have not addressed this. It also falls to the interesting assumption that skirmishing or the like would not be treated as an event roll, which you actually don't know. Given the statements of the various things about joining or denying battle rolls and the times we've had encounters in the GBZ on the small scale or the times where we've had contacts that did not result in fire being exchanged in the same area, this assumption seems...questionable.

Rules As Written. Defending a starbase grants +1L. You cannot defend a starbase that does not exist. If the starbase ceases to exist, the +1L logically does as well, under the rules as written. You can twist things however you like, but that's not what the actual words are. Unless Oneiros says otherwise or the rules are changed, the only way to interpret them we have is in the way they are actually written down.
I expect an apology, otherwise I won't reply to you any further.

I was making three separate arguments on Ixaria (out of many more I could have made), which you ignored except the semantic argument. Now you have apparently also conceded the semantic argument. There is no basis at all for you to claim that the burden of proof is on my side.

There is no such tech as "+1D for ships in sector" that I can find, and even if there was it would not help your argument in the slightest, as D is only relevant in the skirmish phase (with the possible exception of retreats for which we don't know the rules for, but obviously targeting ships is better for keeping ships from retreating in any case), which happens before Starbases get involved. There are event rolls approximating battles, and various rolls rolls that precede battles and determine if they happen at all, but by definition none of those happen during battles, where target priorities play a role. Nor is there even any Starbase facilitated tech bonus that gives a straight up bonus to checks against events in general. A response roll is a very specific thing, not a general category. Given how you are referring to Rules as Written in the next paragraph it is highly ironic that you are trying to invent rules for event rolls happening in battle here, without even the slightest basis in battle logs or Oneiros' descriptions of the battle system. And as said even if skirmish rolls somehow did count as event rolls that still wouldn't help your argument at all.

The Rules as Written state on this issue: "Gain +1 L when outnumbered or defending a Starbase". There are three possibilities:
  1. You made a honest mistake here, in which case you had better apologize.
  2. You don't understand the function of the conjunction "or".
  3. You are trolling or similar.
 
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[X] [PLAN] Base Plan Re-balancing Analysis

[X] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Emitters
[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Base Strike Doctrine
[X] [STARBASE] Henn-MakadEngineering Institute : 2310sStarbase Design - Repair

[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Starfleet Infectious Diseases Institute, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
 
Re: Doctrine Choice, if you want to talk what feels Starfleet then I think both Base Strike and Decisive Action have a claim.

Base Strike taps heavily into that "bold captains venturing into the unknown" feel with its bonuses to and from EC vessels. It's all about standing strong against the odds and making valiant strikes into the heart of enemy danger. Leading daring charges and all that.

Decisive Battle is much more, "With our powers combined!" It's about the entire Federation banding together to stand against foes that no one individually can fight. IDIC and unity and a common cause. Less individual heroism and more having each other's backs.

Star Trek can tap into either one and have it feel appropriately Federation.
 
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[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine

I'm okay with the others as they are, but I like the idea of a United Federation standing strong.
 
It's probably notable Dominion War seemed much more Base Strike -- Operation Return was a pitched deep space battle, but the raids on the Chin'Toka Yards, destroying ketracel-white facilities, and assaulting Cardassia Prime itself. It actually not coming off the top of my head many battles where they weren't striking some facility or another.

This doesn't really have any serious bearing on the discussion but it might help illuminate what Base Strike would look like for the Fed.
 
It's probably notable Dominion War seemed much more Base Strike -- Operation Return was a pitched deep space battle, but the raids on the Chin'Toka Yards, destroying ketracel-white facilities, and assaulting Cardassia Prime itself. It actually not coming off the top of my head many battles where they weren't striking some facility or another.

This doesn't really have any serious bearing on the discussion but it might help illuminate what Base Strike would look like for the Fed.
Hell, even Operation Return was a Base Strike mission. The goal was to retake DS9.
 
I would like to point out that not all potential emergencies have strikeable infrastructure. What if we ran into a giant version of the Hishmeri? And of course there's the fucking Borg and the Biophage, though to be fair we don't know about one and the other we dealt with without a fully developed doctrine.
 
I would like to point out that not all potential emergencies have strikeable infrastructure. What if we ran into a giant version of the Hishmeri? And of course there's the fucking Borg and the Biophage, though to be fair we don't know about one and the other we dealt with without a fully developed doctrine.
Base strike also covers defense operations.

And the Kadesh battle would have likely triggered Base Strike bonuses, at least in the last phase.

Mobile starbase level vessels might trigger them as well.

Plus if it does turn out that target priorities and tactics are doctrine-agnostic we'll end up researching all three.
 
So we have insufficient fleet to explore any further in the GBZ ?
We have insufficient fleet to explore further, while defending roughly a dozen colony sites scattered across many light-years of space, against Cardassian cruiser squadrons.

I don't think we have the ability to direct surveying, but just from the commanders point of view, shouldnt someone be getting fired over just doing nothing for multiple years?
No. For one, those ships may in fact NOT be sitting around doing nothing. Detailed planetary surveys probably take a lot more time than the initial cursory sweeps our ships did of those systems. We were looking for the biggest, most obvious deposits of the most valuable known materials, things used specifically to construct FTL starships.

Now, the survey ships may well be very busy identifying supplies of more 'mundane' resources. Resources of great interest to colonists and to the long-term economic balance of the member races that control those planets, even if they're not very interesting to Starfleet in the short term. Or the ships may be surveying carefully to see if they missed anything important- always possible, as shown by the fact that our explorers routinely turn up interesting finds in systems you would expect to have gotten at least a cursory survey.

You shouldn't assume that nothing happens "off screen." No matter how detailed Oneiros makes the game's simulation, there are always activities it doesn't cover.

This is particularly true when assuming "nothing happens off screen" would lead to the conclusion that people are being reckless, stupid, or negligent.
 
I would like to point out that not all potential emergencies have strikeable infrastructure. What if we ran into a giant version of the Hishmeri? And of course there's the fucking Borg and the Biophage, though to be fair we don't know about one and the other we dealt with without a fully developed doctrine.
By the same token, not all potential emergencies can be resolved with a sufficiently decisive battle. Ixaria, for example, was necessarily going to end with us flying into the teeth of their fixed defenses; if we'd tried to force a decisive battle they'd have sat in orbit and laughed at us.
 
Hell, even Operation Return was a Base Strike mission. The goal was to retake DS9.
By that definition every battle happens on a Base Strike mission for one of the sides (except for the rare cases when both sides actively seek out each other). Fleets that go off into the unknown without any goal can be safely ignored, there is only any reason to intercept another fleet if leaving it unchecked leads to something disadvantageous for you. The difference between Base Strike and Decisive Battle is whether you prefer to prefer to slip through and attack a base/fight defensively at your own bases, or to intercept a fleet on the way to reinforcing/attacking somewhere, and then pick off the bases afterwards if needed.
 
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