I think we can count on Kyuubey to not attempt to make a magical girl without at least getting them to agree to contract and make a wish. I believe that is a requirement for the system however.
I wouldn't count on his 'ethical code' for any other assurance of safety. As there are other possible explanations for him leaving in the circumstances stated.
If his continued presence does not help his goals and could even harm them, there's no point in staying. If he can sum up his message into a 'last words before leaving', he does so. And the appearance of ethics help his attempts to influence people, however dead or witched Meguca tell no tales.
I strongly suspect his code of ethics is tied to a literalist version of free will in some way, but there's no way to be sure unless we ask him. Regardless of whether ethically driven as suspected or simply a quirk of his psychology, though, Kyuubey seems at least highly reluctant to:
1: Directly lie to someone
2: Refuse a wish
As you said, dead Guca tell no tales. But Kyuubey might, if we keep Rule #1 in mind.
I strongly suspect his code of ethics is tied to a literalist version of free will in some way, but there's no way to be sure unless we ask him. Regardless of whether ethically driven as suspected or simply a quirk of his psychology, though, Kyuubey seems at least highly reluctant to:
1: Directly lie to someone
2: Refuse a wish
As you said, dead Guca tell no tales. But Kyuubey might, if we keep Rule #1 in mind.
Recall Kyubey's words on Magical Girls: He doesn't understand why they resent him when they themselves agreed to the contract.
For him, I suspect, refusing a Wish is breaking contract...which is essentially lying, and is thus either "Evil" (by Kyubey's standards) or outright impossible.
I apologize for not having much to contribute on the philosophical front at the moment (I haven't had the time or inclination recently to scale the walls of text of the past few pages, as much as I normally like to), but this seems a little unnecessarily vitriolic.
Yea, sorry about that. I've been without some of my medicine and also I find goalpost shifting and bad faith arguing to be one of the most infuriating things ever.
This is precisely what we need to keep #1 in mind for. We need to be annoyingly particular about precisely what Kyuubey means.
Like this:
Roman Commander asking a local: Have you seen the Fugitive Vesuvius?
Vesuvius: Yes, he's very close by.
Roman Commander: How close by?
Vesuvius: Close enough to touch.
Roman Commander: In what direction does he stand?
Vesuvius: [Screams internally]
The actual incident I'm referencing actually took place on a river. The roman commander was on a boat and asked Vesuvius (I'm 99% percent sure that isn't his name) who was going the other way in a different boat.
Yea, sorry about that. I've been without some of my medicine and also I find goalpost shifting and bad faith arguing to be one of the most infuriating things ever.
I find your behavior pretty infuriating too, but I've always remained civil toward you during our disagreements. And this is not the first time you've resorted to name-calling because I didn't agree with you.
As for bad faith arguing, funny you should bring that up, because...
"You are remarkably well informed," Kyuubey observes, stopping in front of you -behind Mami's back- and fixing an unblinking red stare upon you.
"Y-you- I-I-" Mami's barely coherent any more.
"Hush, Mami," you soothe, but feel compelled to explain a little. "Kyuubey... isn't really alive. His body can be destroyed, but he just... comes back."
"I am alive," Kyuubey corrects, tail continuing to lash furiously behind it in a sinuous, hypnotic motion.
"Whatever," you say, exerting your will. "Go away."
A wave of marbles closes in on the Incubator, bracketing it. It barely has time to dodge before the marbles slam into... and through it, tearing their way through the soft body and pulping it with stacatto, sickening little crunches. It slumps over in a little pile of white and red gunk with the consistency of jelly.
Mami flinches violently in your arms, twisting to look. "W-what... K-kyuubey!"
"He's not dead," you say grimly, even as you scoop up the remains and drop them out the window. "I haven't even seriously inconvenienced him." You switch smoothly to telepathy. "Isn't that right, Kyuubey?"
"You are an excellent actress, Sabrina," Kyuubey replies, though it doesn't physically reappear.
Mami never told him to get out. He never left of his own free will, we pulped him. He then got in one last snide remark via telepathy without being physically present.
A few days later he showed up at Oriko's while we were there with Mami working on the pain ring, if I recall correctly. We threw him out and told him later that his presence was upsetting to Mami, but he still showed up uninvited to our meeting with Nadia and upset Mami again. He's clearly not respecting her desire to not see him.
You mean the scene where Kyouko points a spear at him, asks him what the fuck he's doing there, gets an answer to her question, and then "I can see I'm not wanted. I'll be leaving now"?
I just checked Episode 8, and again, that's not what happened. Kyubey showed up. Kyouko pointed a spear at him and said he had some nerve showing his face in front of her. He said something about feeling like he's not wanted, yes, but then he stuck around to say everything that he came there to say and gauge Homura's reaction. He only left when Homura told him to, and that could just as well be because he knows he's not going to accomplish anything else there.
When did Oriko say anything on the subject? Oriko doesn't have the power to see events in the previous loops. She can only see possible futures, not possible pasts.
You've claimed that only knowing the potentialbomb could cause Madoka to make the wish that she did. The burden of proof to substantiate that claim is on you. It's not some well-established fact that I'm trying to overturn; the idea had not occurred to anyone here as recently as a week ago. You have presented no hard evidence to support this new claim, just a series of assumptions. One of those assumptions is that there are no differences between the last loop and canon besides those we already know about and your theorized potentialbombing of Madoka, but that has also not ever been established with any certainty: we have only very general information about those events and we have not asked any follow-up questions. If you're going to base your claim on that assumption, then you need to substantiate that, too, or a myriad of alternative possibilities open up, all just as likely as your theory.
Your theory is a possible solution, yes, but it's not the only solution as you claim. You haven't put forth any evidence to eliminate the alternatives and make it any more probable than them. Put another way, your whole case is circumstantial and there is a lot of room for reasonable doubt.
We can't treat your claims and conclusions as if they were known facts just because you say so. Claims and assumptions and conclusions need to be challenged. They need to be tested and analyzed and checked for flaws. They need to be supported by evidence. Somebody not accepting your every word as gospel truth is not "arguing in bad faith." Somebody not agreeing with your conclusions is not "being disingenuous." Somebody pointing out when the facts you quote to support your claims are incorrect is not "goalpost shifting."
Mami never told him to get out. He never left of his own free will, we pulped him. He then got in one last snide remark via telepathy without being physically present.
I find your behavior pretty infuriating too, but I've always remained civil toward you during our disagreements. And this is not the first time you've resorted to name-calling because I didn't agree with you.
Like I said, I apologize. As I mentioned on the discord, I've been without my medicine for a week and it's been effecting my mood. I'm trying to be better today. I'm sincerely sorry.
I also admit some of my temper is from the recent argument with Speck, and that's not on you but it's the same subject so I'm still a bit over-defensive.
Mami never told him to get out. He never left of his own free will, we pulped him. He then got in one last snide remark via telepathy without being physically present.
A few days later he showed up at Oriko's while we were there with Mami working on the pain ring, if I recall correctly. We threw him out and told him later that his presence was upsetting to Mami, but he still showed up uninvited to our meeting with Nadia and upset Mami again. He's clearly not respecting her desire to not see him.
My memory's wrong then. I don't have PMAS as well-etched to memory as actual PMMM stuff. That being said, my statement was never that he would fuck off as a rule. His metric seems to be that if he's verbally asked to leave he'll go, but doesn't extend that to future meetings. Remember, his values are fucked up and you can't just if/then assume like that.
I just checked Episode 8, and again, that's not what happened. Kyubey showed up. Kyouko pointed a spear at him and said he had some nerve showing his face in front of her. He said something about feeling like he's not wanted, yes, but then he stuck around to say everything that he came there to say and gauge Homura's reaction. He only left when Homura told him to, and that could just as well be because he knows he's not going to accomplish anything else there.
Again, though, my point is he leaves when he's told to, not just when he picks up a vibe. Kyubey cedes to direct requests but otherwise doesn't assume, in general.
When did Oriko say anything on the subject? Oriko doesn't have the power to see events in the previous loops. She can only see possible futures, not possible pasts.
She sure seems to be able to pick up stuff of Homura's, though, since she straight up gives her a lecture on Homura's failures during their fight in Oriko Magica. I might be mis-remembering in PMAS, though, but I'm pretty sure she's the one who tipped us off on the Potentialbomb thing.
You've claimed that only knowing the potentialbomb could cause Madoka to make the wish that she did. The burden of proof to substantiate that claim is on you. It's not some well-established fact that I'm trying to overturn; the idea had not occurred to anyone here as recently as a week ago. You have presented no hard evidence to support this new claim, just a series of assumptions. One of those assumptions is that there are no differences between the last loop and canon besides those we already know about and your theorized potentialbombing of Madoka, but that has also not ever been established with any certainty: we have only very general information about those events and we have not asked any follow-up questions. If you're going to base your claim on that assumption, then you need to substantiate that, too, or a myriad of alternative possibilities open up, all just as likely as your theory.
Yo dawg I literally just said that it's my personal headcanon and I find it to be the only LOGICAL solution to the question that I can imagine. And I gave some pretty goddamn well-supported reasoning on the subject, but I never claimed to have facts about the previous loop. I'm continually saying things are my analysis based on evidences from different materials and while I might have dramatic freakouts like "HOLY FUCK Y'ALLS HOMURA IS A GODDAMN ORPHAN OMG", I'm pretty careful to say these are just ideas that come to me.
If I think something is an absolute fact, I say so in no uncertain terms, And I've explained this to you and others and you keep trying to accuse me of trying to push my opinions as facts, which I find incredibly rude.
Your theory is a possible solution, yes, but it's not the only solution as you claim. You haven't put forth any evidence to eliminate the alternatives and make it any more probable than them. Put another way, your whole case is circumstantial and there is a lot of room for reasonable doubt.
I didn't claim it was the only solution, I said it was the only logical solution I see on the board.
I DID have people in the discussion, however, argue that my solution wasn't even possible.
We can't treat your claims and conclusions as if they were known facts just because you say so. Claims and assumptions and conclusions need to be challenged. They need to be tested and analyzed and checked for flaws. They need to be supported by evidence. Somebody not accepting your every word as gospel truth is not "arguing in bad faith." Somebody not agreeing with your conclusions is not "being disingenuous." Somebody pointing out when the facts you quote to support your claims are incorrect is not "goalpost shifting."
Yea okay cool, I never said any of that. What I took to be bad faith was your setting up that the potentialbomb wasn't a sufficient grounds for changing Madoka's behavior in regards to contracting because I've cited that fact before in conversations with you.
"I know," you say softly, reaching across to try and pull her into a hug.
She resists you, body stiff and unyielding. "She asked me to keep her away from this," she whispers again, shoulders shaking under your touch.
"I know, Homura," you say, moving your hand away from her shoulder. Instead, you shuffle a little closer, and raise it in front of her, fingers spread. She doesn't want a hug, but this is the next best thing, you hope. "Homura, I'm going to cleanse your Soul Gem, alright?"
She doesn't respond, head bowed low. You move slow and careful as you touch your finger to her Soul Gem, drawing forth an ugly, billowing streak of Grief. You wrap it around you in a bilious streamer before crushing it down and sending it sailing away.
"Homura," you murmur quietly. "I know. And I understand."
She shakes her head with a sharp, convulsive jerk. "How can you?" she whispers. There's no... despair in her voice. She isn't anguished about it, nor conflicted. What there is is a bleak, open acceptance.
"Homura?" you say, gentle and warm. "Look at me?"
Faded violet eyes flicker up to meet your gaze for a second before faltering, looking away. Looking past you, at Mami. "You- you should go."
"No," you say. "No, I don't think so. Homura, I know what happened. I know what Madoka asked you to do, all of it. I understand, Homura."
You remember, all right. The end of a loop... The end of Homura's third loop. They beat Walpurgisnacht, true enough, and there the two of them were. Homura and Madoka. They'd won, together, but the fight took everything they had. Their Soul Gems were full.
And Madoka had one Grief Seed left. Just one - Sayaka's Grief Seed. And she used it on Homura, and asked Homura to save her. To stop her from becoming a magical girl...
And to stop her from becoming a Witch.
Homura obliged.
"Then you should know why we can't tell Madoka," she says, hands clenching into fists. You can feel the way the tendons in her wrist pull tight, wire-taut and too prominent under her skin.
"I..." you stumble, lost for words. You scrabble for familiar ground. Arguing Homura down -arguing anyone down- from a position doesn't really come easy to you. It's always a fight, perhaps one you're sometimes too eager to engage in, but it's always something you have to devote thought and time to. "Back up a bit. Homura? I... I don't know what exactly you think of yourself, but you are not unforgivable. Alright? Listen to me. I just- listen-"
You wait until she looks up at you before continuing. "I forgive you. I'm not the one you want to hear it from. I know." You shrug, a little sheepishly. "I said it before, but... You'll hear it from Madoka one day. I know you will. And it's probably getting old by now, but we are going to win this."
Homura slumps, head dipping towards the ground so that the black curtain of her hair hides her face.
"Madoka's smart," you murmur, thinking about how against all odds, she found a way to beat the system, once upon a never. And it worked for an eon, worked for the age of a universe, until it was brought down by the meddling of the Incubators and the heartbreak of one lost, lonely girl who accepted that she could be the devil.
Here's one more try, then. You don't know how it works - you don't know why Madoka Wished differently. Madoka is smart, and a Wish so oddly vague strikes you as running against the grain. And look where that got everyone: phenomenal cosmic power in the hands of, well, you.
"She's smarter than just about anyone gives her credit for," you muse, shaking off the self-deprecation. "Even herself. I suppose that's my point, though. She's smart, and she has a big heart. I know she asked you to keep her from being tricked, and I agree. She shouldn't be tricked, and she shouldn't have to make a Wish."
Homura makes a quiet, broken noise, arm jerking under your fingers.
"For that reason, though, I don't think she'll make a Wish," you say. "I remember things that never happened, but I know that they could." You grin, faint and wry. "Madoka is Madoka is Madoka, right? I know of times that never happened, and she didn't Wish because there was no need to. Because she, too, understood."
"What other times?" Homura whispers, lifting her eyes to meet yours.
You bite your lip, realising the landmine you stepped on. Times that never happened, indeed: When Homura won. Something vague, then.
"When there's still hope left. I..." you say, breaking off with a sigh. "I know I've said it a lot, but I truly believe we're going to win. There is hope, Homura. Walpurgisnacht, enemy magical girls, whatever else might be coming: they can hurt us. We'll have to fight. But they'll beat us over my dead body. And maybe not even that, huh?" You tap your finger against your Soul Gem, smiling faintly.
Homura sighs, head dipping once more as her tightly clenched fists relax. "I don't want to tell her," she whispers.
And that, perhaps, is a more compelling reason not to tell Madoka. It isn't reasoned in the slightest, but... you can understand not wanting to bring it up. Guilt, awful, awful memories.
"Alright," you say. You're trying to be better about not forcing your will on others, right? "May I cleanse your Soul Gem again?"
"That... isn't necessary," she says, but rolls her hand over so that the bright amethyst of her Soul Gem faces you. She's right - there isn't that much Grief, but you wipe it away regardless.
"I won't push, if you don't want to," you say, smiling at her. "I know you've tried, in loops past, to tell others about it. I understand how hard it is, because of everything you've gone through. But Homura?"
You try to pull her into a hug, and this time she allows it, dangling limply in the circle of your arms. "You're not alone any more. Please remember that. I won't tell Madoka if you don't want me to. I promise. But if you do want to, I can help you with it."
"Please," she whispers.
"I promise not to tell Madoka if you don't want me to," you murmur. "Unless I truly, truly see no way out."
Homura nods jerkily, and sags against your shoulder.
Voting opens
[] Continue talking
- [] What about?
[] Dinner time with Mami
- [] Drop Homura off somewhere
- [X] Be sappy and affectionate
[] Continue through rest of night
- [] Anything specific to do?
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)
=====
Homura remains not very good at this "feelings" thing.
[Q] Hey, I guess I'm like Madoka this way. Like mother, like daughter, eh?
I'll call this a tentative success.
We basically manage to sow the seed of the idea in Homu's mind, to tell Madoka everything, and our promise that Madoka won't Wish then. We should give her time, and if she doesn't bring this up on her own, we might want to ask again.
But give her time, first.
Homura's emotionally spent. Should we ask about any other heavy subjects? I think asking for details about last loop counts.
Light things to say before finishing this conversation:
- How do Nadia's and Homu's powers interact?
- Tell Homura we're getting ourselves a surname. Does she think we should go with 'Akemi', or 'Kaname'? Psych! We went with 'Vee'.
- Remind her about that SCIENCE! we wanted help with (about leaving Sufficient Grief out of range), and about the raids: We could raid bases all over the planet, too.
That said, perhaps suggest that she try easing into it by telling Mami first at some point? Degree removed and all, and she knows that Sabrina will be there to back her up, which will more or less guarantee that Mami will believe her.
As much as I want to ask about the previous loop, Homu...
[] Relax. Once Homura feels better, thank her for listening, tell her about your new surname, and wrap up by offering if she wants a lift anywhere.
[] Once out of timestop, claim Mami's arm for clinging purposes.
[] Drop Homura wherever if she took the offer; otherwise go have dinner with Mami. - [] Be sappy and affectionate
[ ] Wrap the conversation up.
-[ ] Ask Homura to get back to you on that shopping trip - and see if she can find some time to help you with that Grief Science you wanted to check.
-[ ] If she has any issues at all... you're always happy to talk.
[ ] Dinner time with Mami.
-[ ] Drop Homura off somewhere.
-[ ] Be sappy and affectionate.
--[ ] Keep conversation light. No heavy topics.
[ ] Go home, practice enchanting a bit while Mami finishes her homework. Help her if she needs it.
-[ ] Focus on your "natural magic", with an aim for useful protective items if possible.
-[ ] Look up flight directions to Asunaro, and while you're at it, give the whole globe a fuckin general overview alreadyholy shit
[ ] Wrap the conversation up.
-[ ] Ask Homura to get back to you on that shopping trip - and see if she can find some time to help you with that Grief Science you wanted to check.
-[ ] If she has any issues at all... you're always happy to talk.
[ ] Dinner time with Mami.
-[ ] Drop Homura off somewhere.
-[ ] Be sappy and affectionate.
--[ ] Keep conversation light. No heavy topics.
[ ] Go home, practice enchanting a bit while Mami finishes her homework. Help her if she needs it.
-[ ] Focus on your "natural magic", with an aim for useful protective items if possible.
-[ ] Look up flight directions to Asunaro, and while you're at it, give the whole globe a fuckin general overview alreadyholy shit
