The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
The vote's not particularly long. I'm just tired enough that I'm easily confused.
Still not particularly enthused about this idea.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Illinois
Right, so, I'm not at my best atm, but basically... this is a terrible situation.
Mami is falling apart, Kazusa is overjoyed to hear from her, and we're stuck trying to prevent things from going bad -- consider what might happen if Kazusa kept going right now and we're just sitting there comforting Mami but not stopping Kazusa.
We haven't actually seen this dynamic before, I can't understate that. We're used to Mami being distant from kouhais because they don't want to talk to her, but this is a case of Mami not talking to Kazusa because... because why? Because she couldn't bear it. Why not? Because Kazusa wasn't actually present and Asunaro was too far for her to make the trip except, like, on holidays? Probably part of it. Because Kazusa has a large set of friends and talking to her would have resulted in Kazusa talking about all her friends, leaving Mami in a breakdown over how lonely she is and wishing she could be Kazusa and why can't she what has she done wrong why do her friends all leave and Kazusa's stay? Probably a large part of it.
The QB reference last post didn't help, obviously.
What do we do to address this? Well, the usual, of course. Reinforce that we're here for her. But that's a default action. We should further stress, at some point, that with our abilities she should be able to make trips to Asunaro to see Kazusa on a more regular basis if she'd like, and that if she'd like to strike up a renewed acquaintance with Kazusa there's nothing stopping her from doing so -- if she wants to. This simply isn't something we can resolve in the very short term -- she's going be down for at least much of the next update -- but the best thing we can do here is make clear to her that if distance limitations were the problem then they're gone, and we'll support her if she wants to try, add tactfully that if it was another problem (read: Kazusa has too many friends) then we'll support her through that if she wants, and if she doesn't want to try having Kazusa as an acquaintance/friend again then we'll support her on that, too.
And we can stop Kazusa from rolling over her. That's, again, my big fear here -- that a lot of Mami's reluctance to maintain the relation with Kazusa came from Kazusa being too damn happy about all the friends she has. Furthermore Mami is in no condition to be talking to Kazusa ATM. Ideally we should try to run interference, so-to-speak, on telepathy while doing what I said in the last paragraph out loud with Mami. I'm not sure what form that interference should take, though, is the thing. We don't want to run the conversation for Mami, because that's... because Kazusa is her friend, and because we don't want to build a pattern of us running conversations for Mami; that's toxic as fuck. And -- well, one option would be to go "Mami's not well QB betrayed her" but that runs headlong into "don't run the conversation for Mami" and "FFS don't do anything more to trigger Mami", the last thing Mami needs is more QB references atm. So, I'm not sure what to go with there.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
So, let's say, let Kazusa talk, but when we see Mami racting badly, cut in, introduce ourselves? Maybe bring up the trip, or prompt Mami to start introducing everyone else.
Basically,
[ ] Watch Mami. If she gets overwhelmed, help her out.
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- Location
- Illinois
Probably something like that? Only, she's already kinda...
So, I think yes, try to bolster Mami and cut in without undermining in order to run interference if conditions deteriorate. And I think we start doing that now -- the bolstering I mean, not the cut in -- because she's already...
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
That actually brings to mind something from Godwinson's vote I wasn't particularly thrilled with, but didn't change at the time.
[X] Comfort Mami. Be supportive and as affectionate as she needs.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
-[X] If need be, gently encourage her to talk.
[X] Let Mami take the lead if she feels up to it, but step in to help her as needed.
-[x] Inform Kazusa about your abilities, and arrange a visit to supply cleansing.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
-[x] Discuss travel arrangements with the rest of the team. Who's going?
This is Mami's friend. She should run the conversation unless she doesn't feel up to it.
[X] Comfort Mami. Be supportive and as affectionate as she needs.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
-[X] If need be, gently encourage her to talk.
[X] Let Mami take the lead if she feels up to it, but step in to help her as needed.
-[x] Inform Kazusa about your abilities, and arrange a visit to supply cleansing.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
-[x] Discuss travel arrangements with the rest of the team. Who's going?
This is Mami's friend. She should run the conversation unless she doesn't feel up to it.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Well, the first point is that Kirika's OP. Her antimagic would be a great safety net against mind magic, while not totally OP if turned against us.
Bringin Oriko could be good for her. Get her out of the house, get her doing something good- so far she's been shut in, restricted to telling us how we can go out and do good things. Actually going out and helping meguca should be good for Oriko's psyche. For her self-worth.
Of course, O&K are a package deal right now.
Bringing O&K along would help Mami get along with them better. Also, we'd be extending some trust to them, a chance for them to show we can trust them.
Again, O&K would be out of the city, so Homu will be worrying about us rather than about Madoka, so she'll be a little less irrational about it.
Also, O&K are friends. I want them along.
Problems I see are:
Homu gotta Homu.
Maybe Mami doesn't want them along.
Maybe O&K don't want to go.
If any of these three happen and we can't get Homu to stop Homu'ing for a moment, O&K stay.
I kind of want to figure out what to say to Mami (so we don't only snuggle and smile and cheer her on silently), but only thing I can come up with is:
[Q] "Pretend she's me for a moment."
Because there's literally nobody else to serve as an example of how Mami should act towards Kazusa right now.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
[Q] "Pretend she's me for a moment."
Hitting on her probably wouldn't be particularly helpful right now.
Serious edit: We may have to contend with the possibility that Mami won't want to go out of guilt. If she's breaking down this badly over the phone, she's going to be a complete wreck when they meet in person.
On the upside, practice for Kyouko!
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
As if.Hitting on her probably wouldn't be particularly helpful right now.
Sabrina: "Mami, just pretend she's me for a moment."
Mami: "YOU BRAIN DAMAGED LIMPET!"
Kazusa: '...'
Sabrina:
Slightly more serious suggestion:
[] "Where to begin, am I right?" Hold hands and smile reassuringly.
-[] Accentuate the positives: Mami has a circle of friends now, not just Sabrina, and is making her mark on the wider meguca world stopping wars, saving lives, helping people.
Heck, we can even remind her that she was already making friends with Madoka and Sayaka before we even came along, and Homura was there too, even if she was a cold fish to start. We may 'know' how it was about to go wrong, but there wasn't any prior evidence that was going to happen (that's why it's such a shocker in the show, after all), so we can be fully justified in explaining to Mami that the lonely times were over for her, even before Sabrina came into her life.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
We kind of need to not leave Kazusa hanging for long.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
It's Mami's decision, of course. But I think she'd want to see Kazusa again, because Kazusa seems really happy to hear from her again.
Maybe that's something that we can remind her of. This is her friend, she's happy to hear from her, and they've missed each other. There's nothing to be afraid of. This is a good thing.
Well if Mami.exe hangs too long we can butt in and try to out-bubbly Kazusa, but first I want to try reminding Mami that she's not only not alone, but she's been very busy the last two weeks with a decent-sized group of friends and acquaintances first, see if she takes the reins herself.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Telepathy to Mami: "Take your time. Catch up with your friend. You're doing fine, Mami."
-[X] Continue hugging her. Convey your support physically as much as possible.
[X] Let Mami take the reins; if your input is needed, interject.
Trying out some specific wording. It should be quick enough to convey that there will be as little of an awkward pause before Mami can reply as possible.
-[X] Continue hugging her. Convey your support physically as much as possible.
[X] Let Mami take the reins; if your input is needed, interject.
Trying out some specific wording. It should be quick enough to convey that there will be as little of an awkward pause before Mami can reply as possible.
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- Location
- Montclair, California
[X] Be happy for Mami. Encourage andhelp her as needed.
-[X] Let them catch up. Give them privacy?
[X] Introductions all around. Let Mami do most of the talking.
-[X] Tell Kazusa about your work, and that a friend of Mami is a friend of yours.
-[X] Try to arrange a visit to Asunaro.
--[X] If need be, hint there's matters todiscuss face to face.
[X] Propose taking O&K along for the trip. Discuss.
-[X] If team arrangements are made, finish up, tell the Kures you're glad they're doing better, say goodbyes.
-[X] Ask Homura if you can have that chat now.
-[X] Let them catch up. Give them privacy?
[X] Introductions all around. Let Mami do most of the talking.
-[X] Tell Kazusa about your work, and that a friend of Mami is a friend of yours.
-[X] Try to arrange a visit to Asunaro.
--[X] If need be, hint there's matters todiscuss face to face.
[X] Propose taking O&K along for the trip. Discuss.
-[X] If team arrangements are made, finish up, tell the Kures you're glad they're doing better, say goodbyes.
-[X] Ask Homura if you can have that chat now.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I wonder why was choosing who's going to Asunaro left out of the votes.
We're all here, so it's the time to talk about it. Let us not repeat that thing in which we have everyone we need to talk about something, cut things short, go away, then later awkwardly try to make up for it.
Even if people want to go with just Mami, that could be made explicit in vote.
-[Q] Tell her about Cannone Picchio!
We're all here, so it's the time to talk about it. Let us not repeat that thing in which we have everyone we need to talk about something, cut things short, go away, then later awkwardly try to make up for it.
Even if people want to go with just Mami, that could be made explicit in vote.
[Q] Gush with Kazusa about how cool Mami is.
-[Q] Tell her about Cannone Picchio!
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Agree.
I don't think that we have the Mami-comforting quite handled yet. In particular, this kind of thing:
[] Be happy for Mami. Encourage andhelp her as needed.
If it's like we're hypothesizing, and Mami feels guilty for not keeping in touch, I think that we have to be careful with being happy, in case it just reminds Mami that she had a friend and couldn't stay in touch.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
It wasn't left out of mine.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Actually, on re-read...
(Voluntarily or not, Mami's choosing to take refuge in Sabrina.)
Maybe we should cut the telepathy to just Sabrina, Mami and Kazusa, and if Mami can't answer -because look at that, she straight up might no be able to answer- we can try and take over.
We could tell Kazusa that Mami feels bad about not calling for so long. I expect Kazusa won't blame Mami for it, and Mami could use hearing that.
This would be a high-intervention approach. May seem coddling, but I'm try to take cues from Mami here.
[ ] Intervene only until Mami tries to get back into the conversation.
-[ ] Cut Oriko, Kirika and Homura from telepathy. Physically reassure Mami.
-[ ] Greet Kazusa. Apologize for interrupting. Explain Mami's feeling guilty about not calling for so long.
-[ ] Any reassurance, anything good Kazusa says, reinforce it and use it to encourage Mami (only for Mami's ears).
-[ ] Play down Mami's trauma. Talk about what you and Mami have been doing lately until Mami's ready to join back into the conversation.
Idea: [ ] Telekinetically move the Privacy Bubble to cover Oriko and Kirika.
Mami's still not comfortable with them, and yes, she knows they'll be able to watch her, but having them out of sight might help her.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
This is precisely what "Well, Senpai?" is supposed to do.
It's concise, but very expressive, especially with the right expression and body language. It shows that we trust Mami to be able to handle her own problems, while simultaneously telling her that we're there with her, and ready to support her if she does fall. It says that we don't just see her as "Mami, the girl who gives us shelter and food" but also as our Senior Puella, someone with experience and skill. Not just ours, but that Kazusa does too - which both reinforces the idea that Mami is a good Senpai, and helps set the mood for her to Oujou. If we add a twist of playfulness, it also can help to relieve tension, since it's implicit that we immediately accept Kazusa into the group of "friends", which will make it easier in turn for Mami to put her in that slot and thereby be less afraid that Kazusa hates her.
What we don't want to do is coddle her. To be quite honest, the way we treat Mami right now is rather disconcerting - we don't treat her like another sapient entity, but like a pet, or a toddler. We put so much effort into protecting and comforting her and praising her that it's going to start ringing hollow soon, if it hasn't already. Beyond that, it also brings up, indirectly and inadvertently, that Mami is a tight bundle of pure problems that needs coddling and baby gloves to handle, which is only going to exaggerate her feeling like a piece of china a millimeter away from shattering. At some point, she needs to do something that she feels uncomfortable doing, and see positive results from that risk. Kazusa is perfect for this - I'm not convinced that girl would dislike Adolf Hitler if she knew him. Mami can do anything short of murder and Kazusa would still like her, which means that there's almost no fail-state here. Which means that, optimally, we push her as little as it takes for her to take the leap, and then take the hands off for as long as possible and let her bask in her success. And afterwards, we can praise her, but we should also make sure that we give off the impression that it was never in doubt, because she's Mami Tomoe, rather than that it was never in doubt, because she was talking to Kazusa.
tl;dr: Let's stop bringing up Mami's problems and start asking her to trust again. It's the social version of riding a bike, and we'll never get to the end-game if we're so afraid she'll fall over that we never take our hands off the back of her seat.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I'd go for that. Brinapilot tends to be highly effective. I particularly like the "she can do this" and "cover for her" bits, those are excellent high-level directives.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
Had a revelation:
Michiru is already an excelllent home cook.
Michiru in this timeline has personal mentoring from Mami Motherfucking Tomoe.
Let that sink in for a moment.
Michiru is already an excelllent home cook.
Michiru in this timeline has personal mentoring from Mami Motherfucking Tomoe.
Let that sink in for a moment.
Dragontrapper
Homeless Draconis
- Location
- A Tower in the middle of nowhere
Iron Chef - Meguca Ed.?
- Location
- Illinois
Just remember that the guilt complex always comes second. Loneliness first, then guilt.
Mmmmm....
You know what? No. This is how we should do this. This is a golden opportunity (although one I had not expected) and I will be damned if we mess this up.
[X] Pull Mami into the best hug you can manage, and just hold it. Heads on shoulders is ideal.
[X] Quietly encourage her. Use light pushes, ideally phrased as questions, to move her forward if she stumbles; if she hits a wall, ask if she'll talk to you about how she's feeling, and make counterarguments or counter-assertions to whatever negative issues are preventing her from holding the conversation. If at any point she either can't or does not want to continue, take over.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Example, one possible response to Kazusa's question is "Kyubey betrayed me." Push instead in a direction such as "I have a team now." Keep Mami thinking positive as much as possible.
-[X] There will inevitably be pauses in the conversation from Mami's end -- run interference as needed with statements such as "just a moment, please."
-[X] Keep Mami's gem clean.
-[X] Quiet reassurances should be fit in where they seem well-placed. We're here for her.
This is our job. This is what it means to be the other half of a relationship like this. To push carefully, while always providing support. It is our duty to enable Mami to engage in positive behaviors & encounters where her various complexes would normally hold her back. And through that we promote her healing.
I hadn't... I hadn't expected a chance to lightly push Mami to engage with others to pop up for weeks, if at all. Homura is too distant; Sayaka is too naive. Madoka is a normal, and Kyouko... Kyouko is the same as us, she's too close. A reunion with Kyouko puts Kyouko too far inside Mami's comfort zone. And school is good for her, but it's not this.
So, that is what we should do, here. I'm aware it's rather missing some stuff other people (including firn) kinda want to see in the vote. But... I mean, this is my purview. I'm here to help Mami. And this is how we can and should do that. Other people can figure out the other stuff.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Maybe we need more short updates.
[ ] Comfort and encourage Mami. She can do this.
-[ ] Cover for her in conversation while she recovers.
[ ] Let Mami and Kazusa chat as long as they need.
[ ] When appropriate, introduce everyone, explain your work helping meguca and try to arrange a visit.
I think up to that point it's simple enough.
When thinking about who'll go to Asunaro, put our cards on the table and let everyone think about it? Specially Homu, as was being planned?
[ ] Talk about who's going to Asunaro. We've got everyone in this room and Sayaka as candidates. What does everyone think?
-[ ] Not for Kazusa's ears: One of Hijiri's powers is basically mind control. Kirika could be invaluable to counter that.
[ ] Comfort and encourage Mami. She can do this.
-[ ] Cover for her in conversation while she recovers.
[ ] Let Mami and Kazusa chat as long as they need.
[ ] When appropriate, introduce everyone, explain your work helping meguca and try to arrange a visit.
I think up to that point it's simple enough.
When thinking about who'll go to Asunaro, put our cards on the table and let everyone think about it? Specially Homu, as was being planned?
[ ] Talk about who's going to Asunaro. We've got everyone in this room and Sayaka as candidates. What does everyone think?
-[ ] Not for Kazusa's ears: One of Hijiri's powers is basically mind control. Kirika could be invaluable to counter that.
[Q] Sing the Cake Song.