Been a little while since I last looked at the maps, but from memory, 'North East' is the only direction we can expand in without being accused of enveloping one of our peer neighbours.

The Cardies are to the 'North West'
The Klingons are 'South'
The Romulons are 'South East' - if I have remembered it all right.
 
Oh sorry, I've heard that phrase before, it's not uncommon.

I'm a bit defensive of my crow cousins.

Caw Caw Motherfucker.

Trufax: the "eagle screech" you hear in movies actually came from a red tailed hawk. An odd choice, because this hawk actually has a very distinctive call that doesn't sound like any other bird's.

And yes, while majestic in flight, bald eagles are less impressive when you actually live around the lazy, cranky, foul-smelling scavengers.
A lot of animal noises made famous by hollywood are either wrong, or not universal. The frog noise in every Hollywood movie only sounds right to people who live in Souther California, because that's what our frogs sound like. That the problem with having all culture being focused in one area, and controlled by people who are lazy.
 
Been a little while since I last looked at the maps, but from memory, 'North East' is the only direction we can expand in without being accused of enveloping one of our peer neighbours.

The Cardies are to the 'North West'
The Klingons are 'South'
The Romulons are 'South East' - if I have remembered it all right.

We have our entire coreward border to expand along. Except for Sydraxian territory, but that may very well be changing soon.
 
Thing is, "push-back" is what you do when your adversary is already "pushing forward." If you don't push back, they will go exactly where they want and do exactly what they want. In the context of the Romulans and the Licori, this isn't a desirable outcome.

I wouldn't mind the Licori having a government that is simply neutral towards the Federation, but one that is in a position of dependency on Romulus is... problematic.
"Adversary", "I wouldn't mind the Licori having a government that ..."
Seeing another government as an 'adversary' is the job of our government, not of Starfleet.
"I wouldn't mind" - this right to self-determination (see also Prime Directive) includes the right to do things you don't like. You are advocating the position of 'if we don't like the government they have, let's change it'. Perfectly fine for an Empire / colonialization quest.
If they want to talk to the Romulans and accept Romulan' help, what, except for "our political goal as defined by Starfleet is to not allow the Romulan sphere of influence to grow", gives us the right to interfere by "pushing back"?
 
Shit I copied the wrong vote option. Revoting:

[X][PRIS] Exchange for the Ked Paddah Prisoners (-5pp from disgruntled Federation members, improved relations with Tartresis and Licori, +25 with Ked Paddah)
[X][ROM] To justify the costs, it is crucial that the Licori end up with a Federation-friendly government
[X][TALK] Flood the broadcasts

Same rationale as before.
 
Significant swing, but the early voters haven't changed their minds.

E: I guess the takeaway is that wording is key for the early voters.
Adhoc vote count started by AlphaDelta on May 19, 2017 at 4:21 AM, finished with 160 posts and 67 votes.
 
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[X][PRIS] Exchange for the Ked Paddah Prisoners (-5pp from disgruntled Federation members, improved relations with Tartresis and Licori, +25 with Ked Paddah)

[X][TALK] Flood the broadcasts
 
"Adversary", "I wouldn't mind the Licori having a government that ..."
Seeing another government as an 'adversary' is the job of our government, not of Starfleet.
"I wouldn't mind" - this right to self-determination (see also Prime Directive) includes the right to do things you don't like. You are advocating the position of 'if we don't like the government they have, let's change it'. Perfectly fine for an Empire / colonialization quest.
If they want to talk to the Romulans and accept Romulan' help, what, except for "our political goal as defined by Starfleet is to not allow the Romulan sphere of influence to grow", gives us the right to interfere by "pushing back"?
The Prime Directive is moot here since the Romulans are already interfering, almost certainly against the will of the majority of Licori. Sure, House Bene most likely asked them for aid, but since when do they speak for the entire Arcadian Empire?

It's not self-determination if a nation's actions are largely shaped by foreign interference. The Licori are having Romulan overlordship forced upon them, they most certainly didn't agree to it.
 
The Prime Directive is moot here since the Romulans are already interfering, almost certainly against the will of the majority of Licori. Sure, House Bene most likely asked them for aid, but since when do they speak for the entire Arcadian Empire?

It's not self-determination if a nation's actions are largely shaped by foreign interference. The Licori are having Romulan overlordship forced upon them, they most certainly didn't agree to it.
The Prime Directive is a) the have the right to be themselves and b) barbarians and high tech is a bad combination. I was referring to the first part of the rationale behind the prime directive, thereby assuming the stance to respect other peoples values doesn't end with them getting warp tech.
Arcadian Empire - so, because we don't have one person to talk to, we should change their government until suits our needs? And of course the Romulans may not do so, because, they are Romulans and not Federation, right?
 
I have to ask, but what difference do you guys see between this and the Klingon Civil War ?

As the official leader of the Empire, Gowron requested that the Federation send support in fighting the Duras family's forces under the terms of the Treaty of Alliance. Jean-Luc Picard, acting as representative for the Federation, refused to commit Federation resources, calling the conflict "by definition an internal Klingon matter."

In the Federation, many eyes were closely watching the reports coming from the battlefields. Although the Prime Directive dictated that the Federation remain neutral in the war, Captain Picard correctly pointed out that if other powers – such as the Romulans – were involved in the conflict, then it would very much be a Federation concern.
 
The Licori are not a major power we are allied with, and Picard played at realpolitik in the given example.

No, they're something we care about more than an ally. We actually bothered to go to war with them, which is an extremely high level of care for us.

If your argument is there is a lesser level of Federation involvement or reason for involvement here it's ridiculous.
 
[x][PRIS] Exchange for the Ked Paddah Prisoners (-5pp from disgruntled Federation members, improved relations with Tartresis and Licori, +25 with Ked Paddah)
[x][ROM] We will put forward our case to the Arcadian people but ultimately we are not colonisers
[x][TALK] Flood the broadcasts
 
Unless there is a mass wave of vote changes in that time, Starfleet will be advising the President not to stress about the Romulons so much.

This seems a bit off
 
Well, hold on a second.

The Licori are in the same general direction from us as the Romulans, and they're no closer to our borders. Its not like the Sydraxians or Lecarre, who can harass our flanks. In a war situation, I'm really not seeing the strategic value of the Arcadian Empire's location.
There's more to having an ally than where they are on the map.

The Sydraxians are/were a threat not just because of their location, but because just by being warlike and politically separate from Cardassia, they become a separate force Cardassia could use to harass us. One we hesitated to remove because they benefit from Cardassian protection and because of our natural war-aversion.

The Lecarre are/were a threat not just because of their location, but because they have unique capabilities no other known species can match

Focusing on where the Licori are isn't nearly as important as the question of what they are, and whether they would be a problem for us in the hands of someone determined to cause us trouble. Which I'm pretty sure they would be.

Like we're trying to engulf the Romulan Empire.
I wouldn't actually mind a situation where we have a negotiated arrangement with the Romulans to preserve the neutrality of those nations in order to avoid engulfing Romulus, and instead providing a layer of neutral "buffer states" on Romulus's coreward flank.

The problem is this situation where the Romulans are trying to slip in and gain major advantages that can be used as leverage against us, by indirectly profiting from our sacrifices and efforts, without consulting us. They have a right to have their interests taken just as seriously as ours, but that doesn't mean they have a right to passive-aggressively take whatever they want without even talking to us.

"Adversary", "I wouldn't mind the Licori having a government that ..."
Seeing another government as an 'adversary' is the job of our government, not of Starfleet.
Seeing another government as 'our special friend, ignore what they do, it couldn't possibly be a problem or a threat to us' is ALSO a job of our government, not of Starfleet.

One of Starfleet's missions is to defend the Federation. Starfleet cannot possibly defend the Federation if it does not at least seriously consider questions like "is this action, taken by a nation that has historically struck at us when it thought it could, and which has never been fully friendly or open with us, a potential source of harm to the Federation?"

Maybe someone else should make the decision "is this a problem? What should we do about it?" But there is no coherent way in which it makes sense for Starfleet to refuse to have an opinion. Where we just don't care about what our neighbors do. Where it's "not our job" to think about and prepare against the possibility of them taking hostile action. On the contrary, that is exactly Starfleet's job.

"I wouldn't mind" - this right to self-determination (see also Prime Directive) includes the right to do things you don't like. You are advocating the position of 'if we don't like the government they have, let's change it'. Perfectly fine for an Empire / colonialization quest.
No, you are refusing to recognize the difference between "push back" in the sense of "resist Romulan actions, specifically the Romulan actions, that are intended to install a new government where no government now exists" and "try to topple an existing government so we can create one."

This is a massive black/white fallacy. You imply that if I do not favor zero action, I must favor infinite action, when infinite action would be 'imperialism.'

This is exactly why I dislike the wording of the vote, as @Briefvoice does. By including "we are not colonizers" in a vote choice, @OneirosTheWriter has implied that ONLY colonialism is a reason for 'pushing back.' The only reason we might oppose having a large foreign government that has sought to strike at the Federation multiple times in canon gaining a puppet state right along our border.

I mean gee, don't other reasons occur to you? They certainly occur to me.

Now see, we did in fact topple the old government, entirely by accident. The question is not whether or not a government gets replaced. It is who gets to replace it.

In my eye, the only really good options are "the Licori alone," or "a joint Licori/Romulan/Federation negotiated agreement." Having the Federation dominate the replacement process isn't good but at least it doesn't harm the Federation. But having the Romulans dominate the process is just terrible from the point of view of both us and the Licori, especially any Licori who didn't want to be a Romulan puppet state.

If they want to talk to the Romulans and accept Romulan' help, what, except for "our political goal as defined by Starfleet is to not allow the Romulan sphere of influence to grow", gives us the right to interfere by "pushing back"?
Does that mean that if some Licori want to talk to Romulans and accept Romulan help, and if the Romulans are active and vigilant to provide this help quickly, then all Licori should be expected to bow down to the group of Licori that had the bright idea of seeking Romulan help? How is that fair to anyone? How is that protecting anyone's self-determination, except the "self-determination" of a handful of Bene nobles?

I mean, this is going even farther than the TNG-era Prime Directive. You're saying that if one part of a species brings in a second party from outside help, that this constitutes 'the affairs of their species' and should not be interfered with. Even if the rest of their species has no interest in this intervention by the second party.

This is related to the flaw I'm now trying to lampoon among the Licori, the one that leads (when taken to extremes) to tolerance of the loathesome practices of Korannon Kortennon, and to a society where the central government fails to restrain its provinces from developing star-breaking devices and testing them in ways that may threaten the Federation. Because that would constitute interfering in what someone with power wants to do.

Mistaking the actions of just any person who has power to affect the situation, with the kind of important and sacred thing we use words like "sovereignty" and "natural development" to describe, is unwise.
 
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Unless there is a mass wave of vote changes in that time, Starfleet will be advising the President not to stress about the Romulons so much.

This seems a bit off
Yes. It... very much does.

I really do think that this is in large part because of the "we are not colonisers" text in that specific vote option. When you give the voterbase in this quest an opportunity to signal "I am voting against imperialism and wars of conquest" they will tend to take it. Which is fine, except that in this case, the vote is taking a controversial claim* and 'bundling' it with a popular claim** that is at best tangentially related.

There are a lot of reasons why someone might support the popular claim and NOT support the controversial claim.

But by including the popular claim as part of a 'package deal,' the controversial claim gains tremendous early momentum and can win votes that it would otherwise not have won on its own merits. Or would at least have needed to win a much closer, more competitive race to win. A competition in which in-thread discussion of our options would be relevant. As opposed to being a pointless exercise that only even happens after a wave of bandwagon voters have already decided the issue with minimal discussion.

Like seriously, we had ten or fifteen people overwhelmingly vote the same way in the first twenty minutes of the vote window, before any discussion more than a couple of sentences in length had taken place. I think that's largely because the opening of the window happened to coincide with the 'just before morning work starts' time slot on the East Coast of the United States, honestly... But it did happen. And it kind of ruined any opportunity to say "wait what no the Romulans are a serious problem and we should strongly oppose letting them proxy-ify the Licori."

@OneirosTheWriter , I would very much like to ask that you think about this problem when crafting future vote options, unless you are deliberately trying to arrange for specific vote outcomes by giving us only one palatable option in a field of three or four candidates.

When you attach a motive to a vote, if one of the motive choices seems significantly more virtuous than the others, it tends to suppress discussion of whether that option will lead to good consequences. And it discourages people from voting for other options that may well have equally virtuous motives behind them- motives you happened not to have mentioned or not to have thought of.
_________________________________

*Namely "We don't need to try very hard to stop the Romulans from putting their proxies on the Licori throne,"
**Namely "we are not colonialists and imperialists."
 
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Does that mean that if some Licori want to talk to Romulans and accept Romulan help, and if the Romulans are active and vigilant to provide this help quickly, then all Licori should be expected to bow down to the group of Licori that had the bright idea of seeking Romulan help? How is that fair to anyone? How is that protecting anyone's self-determination, except the "self-determination" of a handful of Bene nobles?

I mean, this is going even farther than the TNG-era Prime Directive. You're saying that if one part of a species brings in a second party from outside help, that this constitutes 'the affairs of their species' and should not be interfered with. Even if the rest of their species has no interest in this intervention by the second party.

This is related to the flaw I'm now trying to lampoon among the Licori, the one that leads (when taken to extremes) to tolerance of the loathesome practices of Korannon, and to a society where the central government fails to restrain its provinces from developing star-breaking devices and testing them in ways that may threaten the Federation. Because that would constitute interfering in what someone with power wants to do.

Mistaking the actions of just any person who has power to affect the situation, with the kind of important and sacred thing we use words like "sovereignty" and "natural development" to describe, is unwise.
... Would you care to replace 'Romulans' with 'Federation' in the quote above and read it?
 
I took the specific wording not to mean the intention of why to vote, but how it will be publicly framed.

The "theme" around which our diplomacy will be launched.

I suspect that we'll try to push back, but the vote is how publicly and loudly we're telling the Romulans to fuck off.

I don't want to back them into a position where we've locked them into an adversarial role instead of a cooperative one.
 
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