Well, it's either that or people take part in the quest for the Star Trek exploration, not to fight a war, and I need to just start pulling out more diplomatic saves :V

(Edit: i.e., I have more TNG than DS9 fans in here :V)
I am more ds9 than tng. But the captains logs do make up some of my favorite parts.
But we had more voters in the biophage than in some states of the licori crisis and that was when we had fewer questers.

So I don't think it is the state of emergency mechanics necessarily. Maybe some tweaking but going focus does not appeal to me. I liked how we chose assets and how to use them

Edit:
Realized one other thing is with the biophage we had things happening and a constant what is going on with evacuations and searches so even though there was a build up then we were in motion from the start.
 
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That is why I said something because as it stands I don't think that using this system/approach would result in a very fun experience. The Cardassians war would likely result in even more "useless" micromanagement and if Oneiros doesn't change his turn structure could take (RL) months if to resolve (A bit like torroars Karak Ungor problem in his Warhammer dynasty quest) considering the scale of that conflict. And then there is the fact that one of the more interesting events, the covert op operation against the Gammon superweapon, which woudl have a been a great opportunity for some interesting choices/votes as well as a choice that fits well within high command happened basically without any input from us.
Okay, insofar as this has merit, I think Oneiros's best bet is to abstract mobilization somewhat. For example, large numbers of engineering teams could be placed under Starfleet Engineering Command and be given broad directives like "fortify Indorian space, build repair yards at Apinae and Amarkia, rush all starships that can be completed by the end of the year..."

That would save us a huge amount of micromanagement and would also make the wartime management process more 'scalable,' in the sense that it doesn't become twice as complicated to manage an emergency where twice as many teams are working.

That said, I'd actually LIKE for us to get to pick assets, among other things because it gives us control over which planets' war support we're tapping into. It's mostly just that if we've got, oh, four or six or eight engineering teams and a similar number of industry teams, constantly having to retask them among a host of similar options (rush this ship rush that ship, build outpost here, minefield here, outpost there, et cetera)... Well, that's stressful, and it involves a lot of decisions where there's no obvious wrong answer and many good answers. so people are reluctant to participate. We get more interest in picking the assets in the first place because that tends to be a statement of our priorities.



As I said the key problems in my eyes is that we have a shit-ton of decisions that in the end don't really matter as well as a severe dissonance between a narrative that suggest there might actually be a challenge and us basically breezing through every problem.
In case you didn't notice, our fleet at Ixaria took a HELL of a beating, and if Nash hadn't been in position to violate her own orders by intercepting the Imperial fleet, we could have suffered a massive, disastrous reverse. For that matter, Nash's victory in the battle wasn't guaranteed- her flagship is powerful but not invincible. And we're far from done with the war yet. I don't think your standards are very fair here.

The real question is what the Emperor was fucking doing there in the first place.

You don't send your god damn head of state to a battlefield currently invested by a superpower easily. Especially when you don't have an heir sorted out.
Hereditary monarchies don't follow those rules so consistently. A LOT of monarchies have fallen into disaster or dynastic collapse when the king went out and got himself killed.

I'm starting to get the feeling that Kortennon is going to take control and then invite the Cardassians in or something, who will be all too willing to give them favorable terms (In the short term) after all the nose bloodying we've given them lately.

Because so far, pretty much everyone has been moving in a way that they come out the king. They've lost none of their heavy assets, and for some reason, someone convinced the Emperor to take the field when they weren't 100% aware of where all of our ships were.
Um... are you even playing the same game as the rest of us? Kortennon is RIGHT IN THE GUNSIGHTS of our largest fleet. Their main system gets hit within a matter of a couple of weeks. NOTHING the Cardassians could possibly do would save their major holdings from destruction.

The trend you describe is completely at odds with what's actually been happening.

He didn't even have an heir. That's either some impressive level of delusion or he had no idea what the actual war situation was.

That, or he was just famously incompetent.
Remember, a monarch is likely to care about his own personal fate and obligations a lot more than he does about abstract nationalism. If he has no direct descendants and dies in battle, his troubles are over- and his troubles are extremely severe and pressing. So much so that we've been practically taking bets on when he gets overthrown, and by whom.

There aren't many things he could do to save the situation. Heroic war leadership is far from the worst choice he could make in that scenario.

I remember during the biophage we had good activity with that state of emergency and that was all about mobilizing assets. Though we did not have to deal with War Support then. There are some other differences between the two, that was the first big event like that. Since then we have had the Orion Syndicate and GBZ. Though we had about 6 years after the biophage (eneded 2304.Q1) before our next extended event with Ghost and Whisperers (started 2310.Q1). Following that we had a few quarters until Master Of Orion started. Master of Orion lead directly into the GBZ which lead directly into the Licori crisis, so I think the constant high tempo mode is part of it.
Yeah. Something's gone wrong in a campaign when "major political crisis is eaten by other ongoing major political crisis" becomes a catchphrase.

Well, it's either that or people take part in the quest for the Star Trek exploration, not to fight a war, and I need to just start pulling out more diplomatic saves :V

(Edit: i.e., I have more TNG than DS9 fans in here :V)
Well, people want a mix. It's like, this is why everyone jumped on the Stargazer project, and why people were so happy back in the 'skirmishing' phase of our conflict with Cardassia. Having military-political thrillers blowing up all around us all the time just becomes a disturbance.
 
EDIT: I am adding in an Unassign for the Federation Emergency Council. I don't think we're going to be needing to draw 20 war support each month any longer, so it's time to start drawing down. The Emergency Council is the first step.

[X][GAM] Attack simultaneously

[X][UNASSIGN] Federation Emergency Council
[X][RECON] Kappa Tau, TF6 until Kappa Tau completes
[X][ENG] Assemble 2x1000kt Repair Yards at Tellar Prime (6 Months - apprx)
[X][CON] Starfleet Recruiting Campaign - +2 O / +2 E / +2 T in 1 Qtr
[X][IND] Brute force repairs (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase) : USS Sarek

Seems like the best combination, for all the reasons everyone has already named.

Also, putting the repair yards at Tellar Prime probably means they become part of the Ana Font complex... More responsibility for Commodore Lesley. :V
 
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[X][GAM] Attack simultaneously
[X][RECON] Kappa Tau, TF6 until Kappa Tau completes
[X][ENG] Assemble 2x1000kt Repair Yards at Tellar Prime (6 Months - apprx)
[X][CON] Starfleet Recruiting Campaign - +2 O / +2 E / +2 T in 1 Qtr
[X][IND] Brute force repairs (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase) : USS Sarek
 
You don't send your god damn head of state to a battlefield currently invested by a superpower easily. Especially when you don't have an heir sorted out.

Sounds like he was trying to bolster his image. Be known as the Emperor who came im their darkest hour etc.

It's just that he ran into Nash and Sam in a dark alley and got shanked.
 
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@OneirosTheWriter, since you're listing repair costs here, does this mean we have the option to help recompense the Ked Paddah somehow? If not helping repair their ships (not affiliate, different tech, etc.), then resource compensation?

They didn't do us a favor... we're the ones who did them a favor! How about they recompense us for the damages to our ships? Or, you know, we could call it even and everybody repairs their own ships.

By the way, we lost starting two Renaissances next year due to all the repair payments to date.
 
So anybody down with my suggestion to unassign the Federation Emergency Council from increasing mobilization rate? Because I see no way we're going to want to spend 20 points of war support next turn. We're at the point where we need to preserve it for seeing the war to its conclusion.
 
DS9 was more than the war, though. Sisko is out managing politics, people, etc. We just get the war.
Hmm.

Need to think on that. It's a good point, though. Even in the previous Cardassian crisis, there were diplomatic avenues and decisions. Certainly in the Orion stuff.

I'm really not doing a good job here of representing the politics or diplomacy involved in the Starfleet Commander's role this time around, am I? Yeah, going to need to think on that.
 
And I am learning that I will need to try to abstract a bit further. I'm thinking that instead of picking assets directly, you just appoint a focus once a quarter for the type of assets you want focused on, and then in the interim the votes are about moving fleets around.

Abstracting further, I agree with.

But shifting voting so much over to fleet control, that would be a mistake IMO. Ghost & Whispers was like that, but even with updating (albeit slightly stale) maps, there were times the open-ended nature of the fleet movement voting caused problems.

Instead, you should consider just abstracting the mobilization and assignment part by about half. Combine team mobilization and assignment somehow. Simplify the mobilization point availability so there's not this recursive buildup with internal diplo teams.

Some of the problem is that there is just a lot of detailed information that is not represented in a very easy to understand form. Locations and time schedules, in particular.
 
They didn't do us a favor... we're the ones who did them a favor! How about they recompense us for the damages to our ships? Or, you know, we could call it even and everybody repairs their own ships.

I'm worried about the equivalent of their war support and our continued relations and coordination with them. If we just lost half of any member fleet ships, they'd be howling at us. But if you read on, I had second thoughts with the whole Ixaria prize thing.

That said, I am disappointed that we haven't gotten any war support increases from helping rush member fleet asset construction/repair.

By the way, we lost starting two Renaissances next year due to all the repair payments to date.

TBH, with how important frigates are in the new combat system, I've changed my mind on the pre-war Rennie spam plans anyway. We still need them, but skimping on them and producing SR-cheap Mir-As instead may not be such a bad idea.

So anybody down with my suggestion to unassign the Federation Emergency Council from increasing mobilization rate? Because I see no way we're going to want to spend 20 points of war support next turn. We're at the point where we need to preserve it for seeing the war to its conclusion.

Sure

Agree with rest of consensus vote as well.

[X][GAM] Attack simultaneously

[X][UNASSIGN] Federation Emergency Council
[X][RECON] Kappa Tau, TF6 until Kappa Tau completes
[X][ENG] Assemble 2x1000kt Repair Yards at Tellar Prime (6 Months - apprx)
[X][CON] Starfleet Recruiting Campaign - +2 O / +2 E / +2 T in 1 Qtr
[X][IND] Brute force repairs (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase) : USS Sarek
 
[X][GAM] Attack simultaneously

[X][RECON] Kappa Tau, TF6 until Kappa Tau completes
[X][ENG] Assemble 2x1000kt Repair Yards at Tellar Prime (6 Months - apprx)
[X][CON] Starfleet Recruiting Campaign - +2 O / +2 E / +2 T in 1 Qtr
[X][IND] Brute force repairs (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase) : USS Sarek
 
They didn't do us a favor... we're the ones who did them a favor! How about they recompense us for the damages to our ships? Or, you know, we could call it even and everybody repairs their own ships.

By the way, we lost starting two Renaissances next year due to all the repair payments to date.
I assume we are short on the SR side? In that case pray for events (we have 3 quarters of events still). That does make it easier on our crew though. Plus we have the Constellation-P refit available.

So anybody down with my suggestion to unassign the Federation Emergency Council from increasing mobilization rate? Because I see no way we're going to want to spend 20 points of war support next turn. We're at the point where we need to preserve it for seeing the war to its conclusion.
I kind of want a third external team though, one for Ked Peddah, one for Gaeni and one for Licori. That way when it comes to setting out a peace conference we can work on all the participants at once.

Abstracting further, I agree with.

But shifting voting so much over to fleet control, that would be a mistake IMO. Ghost & Whispers was like that, but even with updating (albeit slightly stale) maps, there were times the open-ended nature of the fleet movement voting caused problems.

Instead, you should consider just abstracting the mobilization and assignment part by about half. Combine team mobilization and assignment somehow. Simplify the mobilization point availability so there's not this recursive buildup with internal diplo teams.

Some of the problem is that there is just a lot of detailed information that is not represented in a very easy to understand form. Locations and time schedules, in particular.

I think looking back at the biophage and seeing what worked there. I think we did not have as much in the way of write ins which made it a lot easier to figure out where to assign teams and what additional teams needed to be mobilized. Really it is write in for fleet maneuvers and where we want outposts that is probably part of the problem. Write in for Ship Repairs should be easier (I am tracking those on the spreadsheet now).

Last time internal diplo teams could mobilize an asset each period or request a more advanced state of emergency which increased our asset cap. That worked out better I think then the mobilization points this time.

For fleet maneuvers I think giving general directives then let our Admirals and Commodores position the forces as needed, we select them for a reason. Now that would mean we would come up with the task forces but that is much less frequent than fleet maneuvers and after initial setup changes would only happen upon major damage to a task force or a lot of new construction coming online.
 
TBH, with how important frigates are in the new combat system, I've changed my mind on the pre-war Rennie spam plans anyway. We still need them, but skimping on them and producing SR-cheap Mir-As instead may not be such a bad idea.

I still haven't even wrapped my brain around all the implications of the new combat system. Frigates are very important for initial phases BUT....

...you need high Science frigates for clearing minefields and the Scouting phase.
...you need tough, fast frigates for the Skirmish phase.
....an overwhelming advantage of Heavy Ships in the Heavy Metal phase can make up for everything else.

Mostly I'm reevaluating that Oberths are much more useful than I ever thought in fleet actions. You really want at least one attached to every fleet for the Scouting phase.
 
Well, it's either that or people take part in the quest for the Star Trek exploration, not to fight a war, and I need to just start pulling out more diplomatic saves :V

(Edit: i.e., I have more TNG than DS9 fans in here :V)
DS9 was more than the war, though. Sisko is out managing politics, people, etc. We just get the war.
I think a hypothetical Cardassian war would be more like that in the buildup, we have already been managing people and politics for a while with them in addition to the GBZ.

In this case, we dealt with internal politics, did a lot of fighting, and I suspect depending how we resolve the Gammon situation the political maneuvering afterwards will range from "epic" to "clusterfuck."

So I think we're just getting delayed gratification on the diplomacy and politics.
 
I still haven't even wrapped my brain around all the implications of the new combat system. Frigates are very important for initial phases BUT....

...you need high Science frigates for clearing minefields and the Scouting phase.
...you need tough, fast frigates for the Skirmish phase.
....an overwhelming advantage of Heavy Ships in the Heavy Metal phase can make up for everything else.

Mostly I'm reevaluating that Oberths are much more useful than I ever thought in fleet actions. You really want at least one attached to every fleet for the Scouting phase.

Yes but the problem is we're dealing with an SR crunch. I'd love to build Centaur-As instead of Miranda-As now (and this was even before we panicked about the mine lethality, when Oneiros initially revealed science now played a greater role in combat), and Oberths are now much more important, but they're still expensive in SR.

In a long drawn-out war with the Cardassians, I'm far more worried about just running out of frigates from attrition and then defaulting to shitty scouting phases or forcing cruisers to be used earlier or simply less ships per phase. There's that saying "quantity has a quality all its own" - from this standpoint, that's very relevant.

... This may be completely heretical, but I'm even considering building a 50sr S4 Constellation-P instead of a 80sr S3 Renaissance - nearly as good at science as an Oberth and with non-S stats about halfway between the two classes and costing much less SR and somewhat less crew (albeit less stat/crew efficiency).

Well, in any case, it's premature to talk about this when the combat engine may continue to be tweaked in the 3 quarters before the next shipyard ops vote.

edit: butchered that quote - fixed ><
 
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Speaking of which, it looks like the mine mechanics have changed a bit... or at least the log format has changed. Now indicates the mine science roll (6) and some other stuff in each ship log...

So I took a deeper look at the mine logs in this battle:
Fleet 1 Phase Breakdown
USS Excelsior, KPS Cautious, KPS Defender, KPS Shrewd
USS Lightning, UES Calgary, KPS Watchful
USS Lexington, TSS Krinuk

Full Battle Log...
Fleet Task Force 1 is entering a Minefield.
Processing next wave of mines...
Mine in the path of USS Excelsior...
Mine in the path of USS Lexington...
Processing next wave of mines...
Ship UES Calgary succesfully detected the mine in its path.
Mine in the path of USS Lexington...
Processing next wave of mines...
Ship UES Calgary succesfully detected the mine in its path.
Mine in the path of TSS Krinuk...

USS Excelsior...
Mine present in this ship's path, screening forces attempting to detect at Science 6.
Mine detected by screening ships.
This wave clear.
This wave clear.

USS Lexington...
Mine present in this ship's path, screening forces attempting to detect at Science 6.
Mine detected by screening ships.
Mine present in this ship's path, screening forces attempting to detect at Science 6.
Mine detected by screening ships.
This wave clear.

TSS Krinuk...
This wave clear.
This wave clear.
Mine present in this ship's path, screening forces attempting to detect at Science 6.
Mine detected by screening ships.

USS Lightning...
No mine in this wave.
No mine in this wave.
No mine in this wave.

UES Calgary...
No mine in this wave.
There is a mine in this ship's path.
There is a mine in this ship's path.

KPS Cautious...
This wave clear.
This wave clear.
This wave clear.

KPS Defender...
This wave clear.
This wave clear.
This wave clear.

KPS Shrewd...
This wave clear.
This wave clear.
This wave clear.

KPS Watchful...
No mine in this wave.
No mine in this wave.
No mine in this wave.

I don't think the mine mechanics were changed in this battle (other than some possible number tweaking) but the formatting has changed. The mine logs are now more verbose and reveal the science check among other things.

@OneirosTheWriter can you include more of the ship detailed breakdown logs (namely mines) into the full battle logs? The info is really scattered about now - not trivial to tell which ships are scouting (unlabeled phase breakdowns) or prevented a mine impacting a ship in the vanguard or heavy metal sections of the fleet.

Can you also start labeling the phases in the phase breakdowns (it's not obvious what phases the ships are involved, or that ships can be involved in multiple phases, until the full combat log is read)? Or better yet: just label the phases each ship was involved in directly in the ship detailed breakdowns and list all the ships entering and withdrawing from battle directly in the master and full combat logs.
 
I can design ships to pretty much any set of reasonable specifications, so long as we have a good understanding of what those specifications are. I put a C4 S4 H4 L6 P1 D3 combat frigate in the design thread the other day, it's 70 SR, seems about where Starfleet would want to go in the future, can even do science event response so it's not useless in garrison. 60 SR designs won't make more than S2 with near-future tech, but there's some fairly direct tougher Miranda replacements available at 60 SR.

The Constie-P (which will likely be unfortunately nicknamed) is serviceable until you realize it has H2 L2.
 
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@OneirosTheWriter can you include more of the ship detailed breakdown logs (namely mines) into the full battle logs? The info is really scattered about now - not trivial to tell which ships are scouting (unlabeled phase breakdowns) or prevented a mine impacting a ship in the vanguard or heavy metal sections of the fleet.
Skirmish line ships are the ones that screen while going through a minefield. They get a boost as frigates to detecting mines. However, when it comes to testing for other ships behind them, they get a detect boost based on the average Science value of the screen, and then get to make another check based on their own science. (Hence you'd have to get up early in the morning to catch the Enterprise).
 
I think the value of the Miranda-A style has decreased with science impacting both evasion and mine detection. Also if you can get that combat frigate up to a P2 I think we would be golden.
 
Skirmish line ships are the ones that screen while going through a minefield. They get a boost as frigates to detecting mines. However, when it comes to testing for other ships behind them, they get a detect boost based on the average Science value of the screen, and then get to make another check based on their own science. (Hence you'd have to get up early in the morning to catch the Enterprise).
What happens if there's a fight inside a mine field? The skirmishers wouldn't stay undisturbed?
 
Right now my interest in this quest is seriously waning because we've not had a breather since ... something December. Or maybe earlier. Master of Orion chained right into GBZ then this blew up.

And the most Trekky thing going on, Stargazer, has become a frequently forgotten footnote.
 
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