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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Hence why the relationship can be repaired given the right circumstances.
Perhaps not "friendship" but certainly " Grudging Respect" is doable.

Keep in mind these are not humans, they are dwarfs, more than that, they are dwarf Living Ancestors, it is in fact entirely possible for them maintain a state of simmering spite for centuries, millennia, eternity without ever tiring of it and for repairs to be made each of them would require the other to act first, to offer a sacrifice proportional to the wrong done. Dwarfs do not forgive, no such word exists in their language, they accept restitution.
 
Keep in mind these are not humans, they are dwarfs, more than that, they are dwarf Living Ancestors, it is in fact entirely possible for them maintain a state of simmering spite for centuries, millennia, eternity without ever tiring of it and for repairs to be made each of them would require the other to act first, to offer a sacrifice proportional to the wrong done. Dwarfs do not forgive, no such word exists in their language, they accept restitution.
Hence why I've been saying that "THIS IS FIXABLE." and also "I DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX IT."
I am merely disagreeing with Dark as Silver's opinion that we are going to have to disable/eliminate Vragni in the future.
He may have not have said it, but you as well as anyone on this quest knows that when dealing with dwarves, this sort of bickering builds up until one side gets the reckoners or kills the other.
 
What makes it even better is that there is a remarkably solid foundation of respect beneath the centuries of pettiness and philosophical differences. Both of them freely acknowledge the other is a remarkably skilled runelord who is doing what they think is best for the Karaz Ankor and forge a better future for their people. They agree on 95% of the plan It's just that their visions of what that ideal long term future is diverge ever so slightly.

I'm certain that they wouldn't hesitate trust each other with their lives in battle or defense of their homes, and might actually go to tremendous lengths to save each other if only for the bragging rights. I'm also certain that if some southern runelord started talking shit about Snorri then Vragni would deliver a brutal verbal beatdown along the lines of "Snorri is wrong, but not as wrong as you are being about the reasons that he is wrong".

Honestly, outside of Kraka Drakk's head ranger, Jorri, and maybe the other KD runelords and his Brotherhood of Dron penpals, Vragni is one of the closest things Snorri has to a peer friendship. Snorri is already noticing that the number of dwarves older than him is starting to get pretty thin, in time, Vragni might be the only one left.

Its kind of sad when you think on it honestly, if the only one around who still sees you as a person is somebody who you cannot stand to interact with.

Good thing that we have Svina around to remind Snorri that he isn't an ancestor god yet at least. Hopefully Vragni's Great*X grandchildren are doing the same for him.
 
Honestly, outside of Kraka Drakk's head ranger, Jorri, and maybe the other KD runelords and his Brotherhood of Dron penpals, Vragni is one of the closest things Snorri has to a peer friendship. Snorri is already noticing that the number of dwarves older than him is starting to get pretty thin, in time, Vragni might be the only one left.
Sad Thought: Snorri got linked with Deep Magic and Mohrni because of the Arcane Fulcrum anvil.
Snorri is going to watch even Svina die of old age.

Bittersweet thought: Snorri might end up making a monument to Vragni out of sadness...

Happy thought: Vragni's students return the respect shown to their master, the feud ends.

Silly thought: Snorri Whitebeard/White Dwarf is going to wonder why Klausson won't die a natural death.
 
Hence why I've been saying that "THIS IS FIXABLE." and also "I DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX IT."
I am merely disagreeing with Dark as Silver's opinion that we are going to have to disable/eliminate Vragni in the future.
He may have not have said it, but you as well as anyone on this quest knows that when dealing with dwarves, this sort of bickering builds up until one side gets the reckoners or kills the other.
Where the hell did I say that?
I don't think the relationship can be repaired because neither party is willing to take the steps necessary (Tear down Khazagar or apologise to Snorri).
Just because I don't think we'll ever like each other doesn't mean I think its kill or be killed. Thats deranged.
The bickering doesn't have to build up, those Runelords in the Burudin who have been arguing for longer than Snorri has been a runelord about how to cook lamb and noones killed anyone over it yet.
 
Silly thought: Snorri Whitebeard/White Dwarf is going to wonder why Klausson won't die a natural death.
SK: Your best bet is AP hell, that works for me, so that's my advice.
SK: Oh, and try to make sure you turn down all offers to become a king.
SW: But what do you do if you are Grungni's heir, and you have to prevent the Karaz Ankor from splintering when your father disappears?
 
I think the fun thing about Vragni and Snorri is if you look at the saying "There is more than one way to skin a cat" the cat being making rune craft. and an added rule about only skinning the cat once each way you think of outside learning or teaching. Vragni followed the letter of the Rule and literally finds more ways to do it, and makes more and more different knives so technically each time is different, or has his new students do it. Snorri just made a big showing auto skinning knife that does it and looks cool. That analogy got away from me.

Anyways, Snorri is willing to bend rules for efficiency while Vragni is wants to follow the letter of the law. They both want the same things for the future, but honestly I think Vragni has a bit more faith in the next generations. Snorri has his weird library that is super radical even for radicals and need to do the big things himself. While Vragni decided if he wants his knowledge safe, he is going to teach every student for not only the work they can do without messing up the Rule of Pride, but also so that his knowledge is preserved to the point it's loss will depend of bigger losses for dwarfs in general.
 
I think the fun thing about Vragni and Snorri is if you look at the saying "There is more than one way to skin a cat" the cat being making rune craft. and an added rule about only skinning the cat once each way you think of outside learning or teaching. Vragni followed the letter of the Rule and literally finds more ways to do it, and makes more and more different knives so technically each time is different, or has his new students do it. Snorri just made a big showing auto skinning knife that does it and looks cool. That analogy got away from me.

Anyways, Snorri is willing to bend rules for efficiency while Vragni is wants to follow the letter of the law. They both want the same things for the future, but honestly I think Vragni has a bit more faith in the next generations. Snorri has his weird library that is super radical even for radicals and need to do the big things himself. While Vragni decided if he wants his knowledge safe, he is going to teach every student for not only the work they can do without messing up the Rule of Pride, but also so that his knowledge is preserved to the point it's loss will depend of bigger losses for dwarfs in general.

Snori is also better as a wonder-maker. This is the thing that really sticks in Vrangi's craw, he can make the argument about the elegance of using less power all he likes but when you measure wonders by the most reasonable metric, the awe of other dwarfs Snori just... wins, it is not even close. Not to mention Snori is the one who by his cloack and armor has a strategic impact unlike any other runelord, even those many centuries his elder from KaK and other sothern holds. Now does that mean he is better in all thigns than them, hell no, he found a wedge to get ahead and has been hammering away at that thing for five hundred years. Thing is Vrangi doesn't have that wedge, or at least he didn't before he got those Tongs, that may change now. After all I doubt he has better things to do than to study it unlike Snory and KKR.
 
Where the hell did I say that?
I don't think the relationship can be repaired because neither party is willing to take the steps necessary (Tear down Khazagar or apologise to Snorri).
Just because I don't think we'll ever like each other doesn't mean I think its kill or be killed. Thats deranged.
The bickering doesn't have to build up, those Runelords in the Burudin who have been arguing for longer than Snorri has been a runelord about how to cook lamb and noones killed anyone over it yet.
I said that you might as well have been implying it. And I was being hyperbolic.
I was essentially saying that barring a ruling from a governing body, dwarves with a sufficiently bad disagreement will keep digging their heels deeper until the fighting gets ugly.

We essentially agree that this state of affairs is going on because neither will back down at this point.
We disagree on what exactly?

Okay. I believe that conflict is inevitable, and that we need to find a resolution before it can be taken advantage of or by Chaos.

And correct me if I'm wrong.
You believe that things will keep going in an endless rivalry without escalating into violence.
That's highly unrealistic considering Vragni keeps picking a fight and his students seem to take his anti-snorri sentiment to heart.
While Vragni decided if he wants his knowledge safe, he is going to teach every student for not only the work they can do without messing up the Rule of Pride, but also so that his knowledge is preserved to the point it's loss will depend of bigger losses for dwarfs in general.
Vragni also created the SUPER!Workshop. Thus ensuring anyone who wants to make a thing has the best tools available.
 
Snori is also better as a wonder-maker. This is the thing that really sticks in Vrangi's craw, he can make the argument about the elegance of using less power all he likes but when you measure wonders by the most reasonable metric, the awe of other dwarfs Snori just... wins, it is not even close. Not to mention Snori is the one who by his cloack and armor has a strategic impact unlike any other runelord, even those many centuries his elder from KaK and other sothern holds. Now does that mean he is better in all thigns than them, hell no, he found a wedge to get ahead and has been hammering away at that thing for five hundred years. Thing is Vrangi doesn't have that wedge, or at least he didn't before he got those Tongs, that may change now. After all I doubt he has better things to do than to study it unlike Snory and KKR.
Vrangi has dozens of apprentices at any given time, and while he does have older ones helping teach younger ones, and a teaching set up developed over centuries, it still has to eat up several APs at a time. Like if he has 5AP standard, 2-3 will be taken up depending on how young most of them are, plus the social obligations needed to talk to them once in a while. not to mention he does a lot of research on variations to normal runes so he can have more possible combos to make to avoid breaking the Rule of Pride. An his citadel he need to keep an eye on.

Vrangi isn't has big on managing everything like Snorri, but at his age, with his responsibilities, he probably is much better with his own AP hell. The main thing is, after the dragon, we are going to basically drop all we can into windsight, and then dap on basically everyone. Every Runelord will be in awe of it, and Vrangi is going to admit that like the super forging combo, it is amazing. Then after that, not counting the next emergency, we will probably work on KKR(and I think we took a commission, I don't rememnber).

You believe that things will keep going in an endless rivalry without escalating into violence.
That's highly unrealistic considering Vragni keeps picking a fight and his students seem to take his anti-snorri sentiment to heart.
I think there will be violence, but nothing too crazy. Like the Runelord convention is suppose to have a few fights if for no other reason that disagreeing positions. These 2 will probably end up in a fist fight sooner or later over something or other, but it will have the impact of a couple of drunks getting into a fight, being put in a cell for a night, and calming down afterwards until next time.

There is no real reason to declare a full Grudge on either side. Vragni doesn't like Snorri's methods and think he is wrong, but Snorri toes the line enough to avoid full censure. At worst, I think the snipping and comments will continue from Vragni towards Snorri, and Snorri will be so busy that he only notices when they are in the same room together.

More likely, the Snorrist and Vragni's line of students will end up completing whenever they meet trying to outdo each other, like college rivalries. They are Dwarfs so they will probably find a way to make a productive outlet for the beardling while still keeping things from getting too out of hand, and if they do, its beardling, what can you do with young hot head?
 
The main thing is, after the dragon, we are going to basically drop all we can into windsight, and then dap on basically everyone. Every Runelord will be in awe of it, and Vrangi is going to admit that like the super forging combo, it is amazing. Then after that, not counting the next emergency, we will probably work on KKR(and I think we took a commission, I don't rememnber).
After windsight, it's all aboard the glimril train with a slight detour to finish anoqeyan cause there's some funky business going on there.
 
Vrangi has dozens of apprentices at any given time, and while he does have older ones helping teach younger ones, and a teaching set up developed over centuries, it still has to eat up several APs at a time. Like if he has 5AP standard, 2-3 will be taken up depending on how young most of them are, plus the social obligations needed to talk to them once in a while. not to mention he does a lot of research on variations to normal runes so he can have more possible combos to make to avoid breaking the Rule of Pride. An his citadel he need to keep an eye on.

Vrangi isn't has big on managing everything like Snorri, but at his age, with his responsibilities, he probably is much better with his own AP hell. The main thing is, after the dragon, we are going to basically drop all we can into windsight, and then dap on basically everyone. Every Runelord will be in awe of it, and Vrangi is going to admit that like the super forging combo, it is amazing. Then after that, not counting the next emergency, we will probably work on KKR(and I think we took a commission, I don't rememnber).

Oh sure, being a conservative is itself an AP tax, you have to invent a version of the Rune of Fire that throws off blue-green sparks or some such every time you need fire for an item, but that is my point Vrangi is the worse wonder-maker, because his philosophy is in fact worse if your objective is to make cool and actually unique runic items. Between Combos and reagents there is plenty of room to expand without having to constantly reinvent the wheel like the conservatives do.
 
Vrangi isn't has big on managing everything like Snorri, but at his age, with his responsibilities, he probably is much better with his own AP hell. The main thing is, after the dragon, we are going to basically drop all we can into windsight, and then dap on basically everyone. Every Runelord will be in awe of it, and Vrangi is going to admit that like the super forging combo, it is amazing. Then after that, not counting the next emergency, we will probably work on KKR(and I think we took a commission, I don't rememnber).
We haven't taken the commission yet, but there's been serious discussion about taking the Deep Guardian gronti commission for Ungor and designing and building it over turn 62 and 63. Its from the same lady named Orra who we gave prosthetic limbs to a few centuries back.

After windsight, it's all aboard the glimril train with a slight detour to finish anoqeyan cause there's some funky business going on there.
Also this yeah. Fortunately, finishing Anoqeyan is straightforward.
 
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After windsight, it's all aboard the glimril train with a slight detour to finish anoqeyan cause there's some funky business going on there.
to be fair here, we might need to finish akazit pt 4 before getting the next level of rune metal, it is still locked, though between the wind sight and language we probably can boosts to it. plus we still havent finished getting everything for this turn and I'm interested to see what we get from examining KKR
 
to be fair here, we might need to finish akazit pt 4 before getting the next level of rune metal, it is still locked, though between the wind sight and language we probably can boosts to it. plus we still havent finished getting everything for this turn and I'm interested to see what we get from examining KKR
It's gonna be part 5 or 6, cause we gotta find a way to refine what we're doing here currently. And then from there find a Rune for Extraction of the essence, since Calcination is just the Eight Winds.
 
The most hilarious bit is that for all Vragni tries to portray himself as this bastion of tradition against the Radical Snorri, he's also a Radical himself and most other Runelords see them as pretty much the same issue against tradition
 
to be fair here, we might need to finish akazit pt 4 before getting the next level of rune metal, it is still locked, though between the wind sight and language we probably can boosts to it. plus we still havent finished getting everything for this turn and I'm interested to see what we get from examining KKR
Yeah, though thankfully the odd mats are carrying us and every turn we actually put AP into akazit will likely send the simple research into whatever materials we have left to further proc akazit. By the time we have time to actually do akazit on like t63 or 64, we'll prob be on pt5 and can blitz it. It's so close now and then rune metal has so many traits proccing on it we'll finish it basically instantly.
 
Oh sure, being a conservative is itself an AP tax, you have to invent a version of the Rune of Fire that throws off blue-green sparks or some such every time you need fire for an item, but that is my point Vrangi is the worse wonder-maker, because his philosophy is in fact worse if your objective is to make cool and actually unique runic items. Between Combos and reagents there is plenty of room to expand without having to constantly reinvent the wheel like the conservatives do.
I feel like he'd be the Dwarf further along the Rune Better skill-tree, in the echelons of "makes t4s from wood and steel" just by virtue of Having A Rune For That.

I may also have something cooking, but no time for that now.
 
Turn 59 Results Pt. 2.X: Anniversary Reward, the Call New
━<><><>< ??? A.P. ><><><>━​

Brazier, Blade and Cloak.

The tools of Gazul, the first to find, the second to duel, and the third to conceal. Given to him to carry out the deeds of the Ancestor when need necessitated it. His Gift and existence allowing him better use of them than any within the Cult. It was an Honour he quietly accepted and secretly dreaded, for the times he wielded them were when things were darkest.

Thorgard feels the weight of history and expectation in his hands and around his shoulders. Behind him twenty-two Runesmtihs and fifty-five Watchers, the eldest of those with the greatest traces of Thungni's blood, stand waiting. He looks to the tripod in front of him, and then to the structure looming behind it.

The triangular portal is massive, as tall as the gate of Azul and built to the exacting specifications that Lord Gazul gave them before His departure. The three incomprehensible Runes, taller than a Dwarf, that had been carved into the corners of the massive triangle stared at him through the dark.

They were and forever shall be, beyond the ability of mortal folk.

They were the work of Gazul, Uncle to Thungni, Slayer of Beasts and Guardian of the Ancestral Halls.

There will never be their like made in this world again.

They were little more than dull grooves in the rock. Expected to be nothing more than a final testament, a relic they would never understand but need no other reason to defend than the fact that it was His last tangible work in the world.

Until Now.

The Runes that Gazul carved were incomplete, the Ancestor's work unfinished before His disappearance.

They demanded power, to ignite, to awaken.

Power beyond what Thorgard or any like him could bring to bear without fear of death.

Power from the Ancestor.

Or, Thorgard muses as he stares at the blade, glowing dimly in his hands, the power of their works.

"Let it begin."

He places the Brazier onto the tripod, unsurprised when it lights up without prompting. Knowing. The blade is next, its tip buried in the Brazier's unending coals and its flame joins to make the pyre even brighter.

Lastly, he unclasps the cloak, feeling shadow recede and clarity fade as his senses return to normalcy. Even without its supernatural insight to guide him, he knows the last step by heart.

Sacrifice. Ore is burned to metal is forged to tool, but never without cost. Every ounce of sweat, every aching muscle, every spark lost, and fleck of hammerscale is part of the price to make better from the things of this world.

The cloak is hung on the sword's pommel, hanging limp and untouched by the inferno that erupts beyond the Brazier's borders, consuming all three tools within fire that radiates no heat but that Thorgard knows will incinerate all who would dare touch it.

Together with another Runesmith and two of the Watchers, the four of them use long iron poles to carry the fireball that is the Brazier towards the portal.

None say anything as the flames are sucked away by invisible winds, none say anything as the fireball shrinks and shrinks and leaves nothing but the now empty tripod behind.Tools return to their master.

Only when the three Runes roar to life, awakened by sacrifice immeasurable, does Thorgard allow himself to huff in silent relief.

The world quakes. Six presences stir at the head of the table, five look to the one who appears conspicuously nonchalant.

The portal opens, and as one they kneel before the swirling gate of glittering light.

The smell of food and good ale flood Thorgard's nose, the sounds of a feast hall, rowdy with raucous laughter and bawdy songs fills his ears. For brief moments he can see an endless table, lined by an infinite number of Dawi. Six shining figures at the end, forever distant but infinitely close.

Our kin call, a chorus from beyond thunders, rattling the cavern enough to knock dust and rock loose, from the world of Duty, Honour, and Burden you intrude upon our rest...Beyond the chorus like a mountain looming above, and below it like the bedrock of the World, Six Somethings loom. All but the Fourth bear down upon him.

Strength floods his veins, from the crowd of voices he can pick out a few that he cares for most with ease. The Fourth intervenes, shielding them.

Our son..../Brother.../Uncle.../Papa....The First twitches, then glares at the Fourth, who merely whistles.

"Hail," Thorgard chokes out instinctively, more feeling in that one word than the past three centuries combined. The First relents, moved by care.

WHY, they thunder, a throng of voices whose eternal feast was interrupted by unexpected occurrence, WHY, OUR KIN, OUR CHILDREN, DO YOU CALL?

"Great battles lay ahead, great trials to come. I—the cloak has granted me visions, premonition! Fate conspires against us. I—WE ask you, honoured Elders," Thorgard shouts back, daring to stare up at the portal even as his vision begins to fade from exposure, "AID US!" The Sixth relents, driven by duty and empty void of the Third.

YOUR BURDEN, YOUR DEEDS. WHAT NEED HAVE WE TO TAKE UP OUR AZ BEARDLING? The chorus roars, Thorgard feels the clanking of tankards on tables and the crinkle of unimpressed brows in his bones. SHALL WE PUT YOUR SHOES ON FOR YOU TOO?

"No reason!" Thorgard answers honestly, "and every reason!"

Vision fading, he feels as if he's going blind, but he refuses to look away. The call of the First draws the Fifth and the Seventh, chastised. Earning the grumbling annoyance of the Second.

Vision returns, and Thorgard rises on jellied legs, held up by invisible hands.

Our duty is done. Our battles over. Your fight is your own, your trials not ours, the chorus declares—The First tuts at the Second, and a contest of Wills that lasts for an eternity and no time at all ends the only way it usually does.

—but a helping hand once in a while ought to be fine.
━<><><><==><><><>━​

:^)
 
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