Even if the Empire of Man does get the golems now that will not allow them to abandon Karaz-a-Karak to aid the Empire of Man against the Beastmen.

The greenskin whaaagh here, is not the whole thing. Some of it is at Barak Varr, and the actual warboss is not there at Karaz-a-Karak. There's a lot of greenskins even with a push of gronti.
I admittedly am not sure as far as how big the waagh at barak varr is, but their king was confident enough to come to us to help us, so i'd wager that breaking the karaz a karak portion is enough to for at least a part of the imperial army to head home.

Especially once messages about the beast tide arrive
Under the argument that 'victory cannot be achieved without choosing X' now. The other available options to boost or wreck a faction should be leading. Not just the one with magic golems on the side of the Empire of Man. The one where Kislev may be able to get itself pulled together and aid the Empire of Man, or to push the objective that can allow us to win the game before Tzeentch sends more formidable forces (arcane fulcrum), or one to keep a faction against chaos in Norsca alive.
I am, to be honest, relatively sure order can win at karaz a karak without the gronti.

It's just the space that has by far the most consequences if it actually falls.

Karaz a karak falling means the end of the karaz ankor and the dwarfen race
Like, look at your wording. Critical spots. From the way you build the Chaos Giants up in your head, don't they justify that distinction? Either Armored giants are worth it to pull Gehenna on a sojourn (when some fukken goblins were) or they aren't. Like idk.

Is it worth more than potentially saving Northern Dwarves from extinction?
They do, absolutely. The question is more if they got the time to bring the wizards from the core of karaz a karak to the frontline if they chaos giants manage to deploy.

Like, if the chaos giants had already been through in the previous logan chapter instead of only black orks and normal giants, they'd have torn the lines of dawi and imperials to shreeds long before gehenna had arrived. It's worded in text that the holes in the gates were not yet big enough to let them through.

Again, durable enough to withstand a tide of lava and demon fire without notable injuries, agile enough to climb the gates of karaz a karak and strong enough to make normal giants look like punks.

They don't even have to do most the killing themselves, if those things barge through the human and dwarf formations, the orks will flood right through.

And the siege giants are not even the greatest danger, the way stone idols are.

An idol of mork which notably was not made out of a way stone managed to fight that super bone grinder during the battle for the magma deeps basically throughout. I'd be willing to bet that thing was less tankier and magic resistant than a waystone idol.

Saving the Northern Dwarves from extinction is indeed something I'd be open to hear an argument over that that is more important
 
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I don't disagree with your points or try to argue for Bulwark but I'm not sure about soul bound currently handling the strain part. Both Frederick and Natasha described how terrible pain was (possibly beyond physical and target spirit). So much so that after one low roll Fred almost closed the bond to protect Natasha.

With how horrible Alyssa is, without even being boosted by Slaanesh on torture stuff, I have a feeling we are only a few low rolls away from either Frederick "breaking" or closing the bond to protect Natasha. I don't want to meta but bottom vote option on chapter 32 "Take The Tor: The Tor of Dominance is right there! Kill her, kill her NOW! FREEZE HER BREAK HER KILL HER KILL HER HOW DARE SHE" kinda implies how things can escalate in a bad direction and Natasha go full berserk after.
I took that to mean her almost overwhelming rage and hatred to go kill Voidreaper then the bond roll being low.

As for the low rolls thing, I mean we are always 1 bad roll away from things going badly every time we do something, and that applies to us failing a fate point roll. But, with a few exceptions, most of which was more narrative then anything else, we always make it out fine and okay. This is no different from all of those other occasions, most dangerous of them all, Karak Ungor. So I don't have as much fear or doubt about these sorts of falling either bond rolls or critical fights with Natasha as the rest of the thread seems to have. And my point on more then half a dozen heros, all having there own fate points that they can use to save nat from a bad situation, still stands even now.
 
I don't disagree with your points or try to argue for Bulwark but I'm not sure about soul bound currently handling the strain part. Both Frederick and Natasha described how terrible pain was (possibly beyond physical and target spirit). So much so that after one low roll Fred almost closed the bond to protect Natasha.
The soul bond has given us a decent bonus to resisting the torture, and an upgraded soul bond will only increase it. Also, we've only been passing the rolls because our bonuses outweighed our maluses, but the maluses are increasing as Alyssa steps up her game. So every increase in bonuses gives us more of a buffer before Freddy gives in, and having fortune points will allow him to reroll if he fails, giving us even more of a buffer.
 
So every increase in bonuses gives us more of a buffer before Freddy gives in, and having fortune points will allow him to reroll if he fails, giving us even more of a buffer.

I wasn't trying to argue against fate point, sorry if it came out that way. I honestly just hope Frederick and Natash won't immediately die in the next few chapters and see a stronger soul bond binding them more. I'm aware it's not the most rational way so I'm not arguing for Burning Bulwark. For me, I simply want to read more of this stuff.
 
I want now to be a time of creation and joy, and actual livelihood so I can claw back some small measure of 'me' to hold close so I don't lose myself entirely.
This. This is a proof your perseverance. Never doubt if you can.
We will be along side you.

[] Fighting Fate
[] The Burning Bulwark of Love
[] By the Ancestors:
[] With A Bit Of Time And Space:
[] Maligning Moulder:
[] Raindrops Falling On Their Heads

I REALLY want all of them. The question is if we go with greater good? Esspecially given needs of others.

Let the glories of better days live once again!
Exacly!
 
I wasn't trying to argue against fate point, sorry if it came out that way. I honestly just hope Frederick and Natash won't immediately die in the next few chapters and see a stronger soul bond binding them more. I'm aware it's not the most rational way so I'm not arguing for Burning Bulwark. For me, I simply want to read more of this stuff.
I was trying to convince you to support Burning Bulwark. Because I believe it and the Fate Points give Freddy and Nat the best chances of escaping.
 
I admittedly am not sure as far as how big the waagh at barak varr is, but their king was confident enough to come to us to help us, so i'd wager that breaking the karaz a karak portion is enough to for at least a part of the imperial army to head home.

Especially once messages about the beast tide arrive
QM talked about this a bit in the comments. The king of Barak Varr showed up because the rest of the Karaz Ankor could not respond and Freddy asked for help. That moment when the fighitng at Salkalten was over and the King of Barak Varr declared he'd stick around and continue to fight, that's because he is a dawi. Doesn't matter that the greenskins have his hold surrounded, doesn't matter the he fought a skaven fleet twice, what matters is his fleet was late. Plus the idea that the Karaz Ankor is thriving after the reclamation of Karak Ungor likely factored in too.

And we know the greenskins have skaven artifice, skaven artifice that has yet to actually appear at the siege of Karaz-a-Karak. The split up is significant, sure it's smaller, but that's like getting a very large mountain instead of the tallest mountain in the world.
 
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I was trying to convince you to support Burning Bulwark. Because I believe it and the Fate Points give Freddy and Nat the best chances of escaping.

Well, it seems I mis-read what you meant then my bad. I already voted for Burning Bulward boss. I agree that Fate Points will help them quite a lot with stronger bond but I'm a bit undecided on using both options on Ostland's best couple. Rest of the options are very good too. So as I said, I decide to just vote Burning Bulwark for narrative mostly. Besides, it's not like any of them is a blatant bad option. I'm sure thread will come up with a fine combination.
 
Simple fact of the matter is, we're still playing as Freddy and Nat rn. If they had died or one of them had already, I'd vote for the more world changing options like the gronti or waystone thing. But we're gonna keep playing as Freddy and Nat for some time yet and this Ark Arc ain't over by a longshot. And let's be real. I want those two to make it outta here and back to Ostland.
If you were to make Nat chose bettwen herself and Kislev or Freddy bettwen him and Karaz Ankor... Neither would pick themselfs.
 
[X] Fighting Fate - Sometimes, it seems like the entire universe has been set against them, and yet, they persist. Sometimes, even, with a bit of aid from the Gods themselves. Gods, supreme beings that they are, often contest one another as well, and once again, it seems a locus point has been found where a great many are exerting their influence in a single place. For better or worse, influence becomes easier to push forward. A great many champions are present after all, and Gods are not above petty acts of vengeance. Frederick and Natasha both gain 1 Fate Point, and 1 Fortune Point To Use 'Per Day' I.E. In/around 24 hours within-universe.

Never a bad thing to have Fate Points.

[X] By the Ancestors: The Greenskins have broken open Karaz-a-Karak, and yet they are finding it a difficult prize to plumb. The work of Kragg the Grim, never-ending, has provided a few more thorns than they might have ever expected. For the first time in a long time, new Gronti walk. Not the greatest of them, not yet, not quite, and yet that some have been forged anew, some reawoken from the deeper vaults, is a great boon to the dwarfs and their allies in the defense of their nation. The runes - and anger - of the dwarfs burn bright! Kragg the Grim has begun production of Gronti, powerful rune-golems, to help bolster the defenses of the Everpeak.

The defense of the Everpeak needs whatever advantage they can get right now.
 
I thought those were destroyed or damaged when Logan sabotaged the artillery.

Yeah, okay, here are the quotes.
"Urgok Beard Burner brought catapults and battering rams, his greatest war machine being the one that required a giant to thrust forward," Thorgrim said, his volcanic rage as abruptly gone as it had appeared.

He looked up and around at all the dwarfs nearby.

"The urk that come for us now have more than mere rams. It has already been confirmed that they have many times more the number of urk and grobi that followed Urgok. They bear mutated squigs that they have changed with warpstone! That they have taken and stolen war machines from the thaggoraki for their own usage. That they have connections, in some fashion or another, with none other than the Dawi-Zharr!"
The above is from "A Day For Tradition" before the Quiet Whaaagh reaches the Karaz-a-Karak.

Before Logan could see any more, a thump on his shoulder drew his attention back down to what was actually directly in front of him, a silent Regina kneeling in the shadows of one of the guard towers. She held up a finger before his eyes to make sure he was focusing and then pointed at the artillery park that was in front of them. Silently, he cursed and shook his head, eyes wide as he tried to memorize every detail he could. There were the largest rock lobbers he'd ever seen, of course, but there were also what he knew greenskins called spear chukkas, effectively greenskin bolt throwers, which were also similarly enlarged than from standard. These were built for firing what looked like sharpened and shaved tree trunks, rather than the smaller bolts of the Empire or dwarfs. He also saw plenty of the so-called doom diver catapults, though he spied none of the suicidal goblins around the machines, given that none of them were firing at the moment. But of course, all of that had been known. Expected. As were the few goblins and orcs that looked like their only lot in life was endlessly performing their best attempts at maintenance at creations that looked ready to collapse at any moment. It seemed that the Warbosses had decided to not waste ammo firing fruitlessly at the dwarf walls and gate at the moment, leaving the camp likely thoroughly emptied compared to how it would be at the height of activity.

But that was not all that the WAAAGH!! had brought forth.

Not at all.

Logan had never seen them before in his life, but he had read the account of Evangeline Hertwig of his father's exploits in Karak Ungor. To the dwarfs, the chaos dwarfs were practically forbidden to acknowledge unless in the direst circumstances, but their involvement and following defeat in Karak Ungor were a triumph worth letting be recorded. Even without that, the greenskins had purposefully boasted of that existence, of taking from those accursed cousins of the dawi, and in that aspect he could recognize the touch of dwarfen expertise and mastery if turned to dark and terrible purpose. Before him, separated from the comparatively fragile creations of lashed together wood and stone and rusted metal, was a grouping of war machines that burned with infernal light. A great amount of it. So much that it burned at his eyes and forced them to water simply from looking at them. Some of them rumbled and shook, gigantic things that looked like steam tanks ballooned and twisted, huge metal spoked wheels clanking as they occasionally spun in place without warning. There were squat and wide cannons, larger than any he'd ever seen anywhere, with cracked metal spheres, the light of Chaos literally glowing from within next to them. There were firing platforms with strange cone-topped cylinders which lay near them in piles. The only one that he could actually name, that the Old World even had proper recent records of, however, were the hellcannons. The same that had been used by the Everchosen in Kislev.

"Chaos…," he heard Regina hiss from next to him, an ember of burning hatred appearing in her previously blank eyes.

The difference to Kislev, he supposed, was that there were goblins scrambling all over them poking and jabbing here and there. That and the huge chains that had been wrapped and tied around all of the various machines and then jammed into the ground with literal hundreds of iron stakes that had been shoved and hammered as deep into the ground as possible. Even as they watched, one of the hellcannons literally let loose a basso roar and violently lurched in place which snapped some of the chains, catching two slower goblins beneath its suddenly spinning wheels and grinding them apart with loud screeches and screams. The other goblins on the work crew whooped and hollered, laughing and cackling at the fate of the unfortunate pair, before scrambling around to gather up the snapped chains and then lash them over the hellcannon again.

"Bludwort! Bludwoooort!" He heard one of the taller goblins call out. "One of dem spikey pets done got ornery 'gain!"

There was an instant answer from behind one of the larger amalgamations of Chaos and metal.

And the above is the artillery Logan saw in "Shades of White, Black, and Grey 20".

Thaggoraki are the dwarf word for skaven. The skaven war machines the Quiet Whaaagh has was not seen at the artillery park of the greenskins at Karaz-a-Karak. Likely conclusion: The skaven weaponry stolen is at Barak Varr.
 
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Happy anniversary and I hope things improve soon.

Honestly tho, its a shinies vote. Bonus stuff. Just pick what you think is most entertaining for you.
Well put. We were already determined to save them all without such aid. Whis sipmeply makes things better. Still wise to pick long term I would say. (Sadly Kislev places last in that.)

[X] By the Ancestors

Never a doubt about that one

[X] With A Bit Of Time And Space

SHE had earned it.

[] Raindrops Falling On Their Heads
[X] Fighting Fate

Vengence shall come. After it They will no longer be alone.
 
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