Or we say fuck it and strap all the phasers and torpedos on her and make her the nightmare of anything not the borg for the next century?
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Ferengi Used Ship Salesman: *Slaps top of rollbars* This baby can fit so many weapons.
Transporting vital colony supplies generally? Cargo space, high efficient cruise speed.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Okay cool, so we'll have a cost effective torpedo cruiser that can bring a ton of single target firepower to bear, potentially match a K'tinga, and that we can trust to fight a lot of those pesky 1 on 1 engagements you were hyped for. So where's our solution to the cost effective counter to BoPs, that can lead a Miranda taskforce into battle and keep them from getting punished thanks to it's high coverage?
If the Miranda took literally anything away from the Excalibur it's not going to struggle at fighting a 1v1 but will need help in a formation engagement. If the Klingons took anything away from the war they will want to be fighting formation engagements. There's nothing wrong with having a distinct light cruiser and heavy cruiser configuration, and no one's under any delusions this will be cheap. But the idea that anything less than 4 Type 4 torpedoes forward to fight an enemy cruiser half it's displacement is just pissing in the wind? It's a bit much.
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This is a really well-argued post, but I think the disconnect here is like, on a basic level of how we conceptualise ship fights? So it may be better to actually drive to the point of contention there first.
To put it simply, I think that a really successful capital ship like the Excalibur that excel in one on one engagements is not like, an example of a unique or particular fighting style, like playing an assassin in World of Warcraft. It's more of an example of how capital ships in Star Trek fight other capital ships in Star Trek, which is by beating them in one on one fights. It's how the Enterprise in TOS fights, and it's also how we see the Enterprise-D fight Klingon and other ships there also.
The way a fully armed Federation would handle a formation of three K'Tinga class would be to destroy them, one after the other, as we see the Enterprise-D or the Enterprise are handily able to bully smaller and less powerful vessels. This whole idea of there being a unique kind of "one on one battle" where maximising firepower is useful, but outside that it's less useful, is just incorrect, both for Star Trek itself but also the quest. A Federation with dual engines will handily be able to use its firepower to great effect against Klingon cruisers; just as the canonical Enterprise could despite being fair less agile and having even less weapons coverage. This is just a point of fact.
Or to put it more simply in Quest terms, Single Target Damage Rating is what wins fights between capital ships. Being able to engage swarms is nice, sure, but we have phasers, and the Ninja Bird of Prey Swarm is also a memetic entity hiding deep in the subconscious of the Quest which has exercised a reign of terror totally out of proportion to its factual existence since its inception.
But can additional torpedoes be added during refit? It would be nice to future-proof this design...
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
- Location
- Texas
If we were trying to build a dreadnought from the start, then I'd definitely support an armed roll bar. But that's not what we picked, nor what we were asked for. And here the GM is, waving a big red flag that we will exceed that with this option.
Starfleet is replacing more than a hundred ships in the next three or four decades
Seventy of them in the next decade or so
Thats including all the twelve Sagamarthas, eight or nine dead Excaliburs, three dead Keas, and a hundred more cruisers EDIT [38x Selachiis + 28x Cygnuses + 16x Saladins + 4x Radiants + 30x Newtons]
And thats not counting that Federation space is still expanding, and so Starfleet needs to expand to patrol it
Or Member Fleets rebuilding defensive strength
They need a lot of these
This ships defining non-combat strategic consideration is high strategic speed
So with regards to colony support, it makes sense
-Pirate Attack/Raider incursion
-Plague Outbreak
-Very fast cargo delivery
-Time sensitive science missions. Maybe
I dont think diplomacy is a priority for this ship
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If this were a huge survivability concern, it would not be being offered as an option, I don't think?
Like however the rollbar torpedo launcher works it clearly does work (and Sayle is a fan of rollbar torpedo launchers), so there seems to essentially be a 0% chance that in the Quest this is going to manifest as a problem?
The Miranda is no doubt handily capable of fighting Birds of Prey by itself, given that it is a solid and extremely capable line cruiser and quite agile too by all accounts. Once again, the canonical Enterprise, with its frankly quite poor manoeuvrability and limited firing arcs, did perfectly fine against Birds of Prey. Certainly Birds of Prey are formidable, but the Ninja Bird of Prey Swarm of Death is not the threat in reality that it is in the psyche of this quest's voterbase.
To answer your question though, the the answer to how a Federation would deal with BoP doing BoP things would probably be, IDK, shoot them? Just because we want to maximise our alpha strike and single-target to make the best of the expensive platform we've designed, it does not mean we need have to like, not have phasers, right? The dilemma here is between more torpedoes (and single target damage) or nothing, not between torpedoes or phasers, or between single-target and multi-target.
Although in fact I think aft torps also raise our multi-target rating, making us better at fighting BoPs, so...
- Location
- madison
Miranda class
The Miranda-class starship was a type of Federation starship operated by Starfleet during the 23rd and the 24th century. The Miranda-class had entered Starfleet service by the 2260s, which included the launch of the USS Reliant in 2264. (TOS: "Court Martial"; PIC: "The Star Gazer" dedication...memory-alpha.fandom.com
There is literally zero percent chance that the Federation class, whatever choice we take now, is going to be built in numbers when the Miranda, God of Affordable Versatility, larger than the Excalibur class, and quite capable as a combatant for the 23rd century, is sitting right there.
The only viable role for this ship at the price point we've already baked into the design is as a big stick. The whole "fleet anchor" concept is IMO kind of silly and very RTS game inspired, but I suppose it is stated in the text of the quest so we have to accept it as canon. Either way, if we want a fleet flagship, then it being able to actually kill things is also useful.
we where asked to build a ship for a role, if we abandon the asked for role there will be consequences, either the federation simply does not have a modern ship that can fill it, or the role is filled by a NPC designed ship that is objectively worse than what we could make. this is not based on lore, this is based on the principles of game design, failure has a cost and being asked for a line cruiser and coming back with a dreadnought is objectively a failure.
We are not building a cost effective line cruiser, don't kid yourself. At this point she is a gigantic sledgehammer and should be armed and treated as such! If we wanted something else we didn't vote for it and i allready wanted to make a maximum size battleship so im totally fine with max phasers and max torps.
No we voted for the Federation design brief:
The Miranda is made by San fran as close to canon Miranda as quest allows.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, they need a lot of Mirandas. And they'll get them, irrespective of choices made here. We chose to build a ship that never technically existed on anything other than paper.
- Location
- Australia
I think Skippy is right that adding double the torpedo fire power both forwards and back for 20 cost is a no-brainer. In terms of combat effectiveness for total ship cost as an added percentage, nothing can compete. Nothing.
That being said, I'm still going to go without.
Hang on, I know that's weird.
But it's pretty much for the same reason we don't have cloaking devices. They would make us much more combat effective! (And invalidate a lot of trust politically)
Right now, this thing of beauty and grace is a massively upgraded kea. Incredibly upgraded. Fast, durable, and similar load out to what everyone expects. It's impressive, safe and comfortable. And just a little scary, in a good way.
Throwing on 4 more -never seen before in size, incredibly massive- torpedoes into a large, visible dedicated structure immediately changes the mental category it goes into.
It doesn't matter the increase in cost. It's a change in perception. Building a huge amount of those? Ain't no way the Klingons believe that with a stick that big we aren't gearing up for coming after them as soon as we can. This thing looks like a fleet killer, and having one near your territory makes you very, very nervous.
We could fill it with puppies and rainbow making devices, but it would never be seen as anything but a big threat. Hence, the classification of Dreadnought.
The current design though? It straddles the line very effectively. It's fast, tanky, and covered with new phasers. But it's not bigger than previous ships. It's not significantly more heavily armed than previous ships. It's just a hell of an upgrade, right after being attacked. It's very understandable. And it can be produced in enough numbers that the fast reaction speed can help massively across the Federation.
That being said, I'm still going to go without.
Hang on, I know that's weird.
But it's pretty much for the same reason we don't have cloaking devices. They would make us much more combat effective! (And invalidate a lot of trust politically)
Right now, this thing of beauty and grace is a massively upgraded kea. Incredibly upgraded. Fast, durable, and similar load out to what everyone expects. It's impressive, safe and comfortable. And just a little scary, in a good way.
Throwing on 4 more -never seen before in size, incredibly massive- torpedoes into a large, visible dedicated structure immediately changes the mental category it goes into.
It doesn't matter the increase in cost. It's a change in perception. Building a huge amount of those? Ain't no way the Klingons believe that with a stick that big we aren't gearing up for coming after them as soon as we can. This thing looks like a fleet killer, and having one near your territory makes you very, very nervous.
We could fill it with puppies and rainbow making devices, but it would never be seen as anything but a big threat. Hence, the classification of Dreadnought.
The current design though? It straddles the line very effectively. It's fast, tanky, and covered with new phasers. But it's not bigger than previous ships. It's not significantly more heavily armed than previous ships. It's just a hell of an upgrade, right after being attacked. It's very understandable. And it can be produced in enough numbers that the fast reaction speed can help massively across the Federation.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
We're not going to use the extra torpedo mounts, but I like the look of it
We're not going to use the extra torpedo mounts, but I like the look of it
StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
it cool
it cool
- Location
- his hidden lair
And then we have a handful of them, and they're a neat design but don't see widespread use because they're really actually not that great. Joy. This isn't us just saying penny pinch so that they better compete with the Miranda, it's saying don't over invest such that it no longer fits the requirements for a heavy cruiser we were given.
I'm not saying it's all or nothing, and I don't disagree that single target damage rating is useful- but my point is we've been prioritizing it with the Excalibur, it'll probably be emphasized with the Miranda, and it won't be lacking on the Federation regardless.
As for the battle you describe, I'm probably going to get flak for this argument but- that's just a stereotypical action hero punching down against nominally 'peer' elite mooks. Why are the K'tingas' waiting one at a time to get defeated in stylish fashion rather than maneuvering out of it's firing arcs while one draws fire? Why are they not trying to swap who takes fire on their shields to draw the battle out? Assuming the Federation will have the luxury of overpowering each enemy cruiser one after the other is the cleanest, most favorable white room scenario possible and assumes no agency for the Opfor. Even in the best case scenario the K'tinga won't be much less agile than the Federation- if we give the Fed the benefit it'll be able to use most of it's fixed weaponry in that scenario regardless, we need to do the same for the K'tinga. To be blunt, outside of a hero ship, I expect any variation of Federation class to die to three well led K'tingas if it has no outside support- so yes, we're clearly visualizing a much different battlefield.
And believe me, I've been dismissive of the Ninja Bird of Prey Swarm before, but it was a repeated Klingon tactic to use them as skirmishers to pin and degrade our superior cruiser forces before they closed in with the D7s. And it worked, even when we won, it was probably a closer run thing than it needed to be if we had adequate multi-targeting damage output. Suggesting we get a better tactical response than just 'if our cruisers are better enough, they can still win even after they get degraded by the enemy' doesn't seem to to be succumbing to fear of the memetic ninja BOP.
My contention isn't that single-target damage is useless- it's that there is no equivalent weight capital ship that needs the Federation to double down on single-target damage, and that we have capable single-target damage from other ships as a matter of course. Getting high coverage, and most importantly- relatively affordable high coverage helps our lean and mean cruisers can better match their peers in displacement, and on it's lonesome lets it better fight an enemy willing to do more than wait their turn to fall under it's heavy guns.
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Empress_Boog
Grand Empress
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)
The Miranda is a good ship, there is no reason we really need to compete against it, and making a modern dread is interesting.
The Miranda is a good ship, there is no reason we really need to compete against it, and making a modern dread is interesting.
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Chargone
Invisable operator
- Location
- New Zealand
Fhndamentally, the goal is a ship specifically designed for the combat role the Kea was forced into in fleet battles, that is also a good and useful cruiser the rest of the time.
When Starfleet starts classifying it as a dreadnaught, it's definitely failing at the latter and May, for lack of numbers, be starting to get a bit iffy on the former.
Spending a lot to make the ship good at its job is one thing, rendering it unsuitable is quite another matter.
I'd still be Tempted by the extra capability if putting the torpedoes on the role bar freed up module space in the hull, but it doesn't.
When Starfleet starts classifying it as a dreadnaught, it's definitely failing at the latter and May, for lack of numbers, be starting to get a bit iffy on the former.
Spending a lot to make the ship good at its job is one thing, rendering it unsuitable is quite another matter.
I'd still be Tempted by the extra capability if putting the torpedoes on the role bar freed up module space in the hull, but it doesn't.
[X] Standard Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
We are building a ship for the role we were given, which is why we've voted for options that were given in this brief. Given we've gone for maximal-cost options at so many points, that means we need the firepower to actually justify that cost, just like how it would be insane to design a heavy cruiser and then only give it a light cruiser's armament.
The only suggestion that this ship is not fulfilling a role is that it may not be able to fulfil the Miranda's role as the main line cruiser of the 23rd century:
Notably, nothing in the update says that designing a modern-day dreadnought would be bad, or even out of scope for the maximal end of Project Federation. (We would not have been able to vote for these options if it were.) What the update says is this would extinguish hope for this to become Starfleet's "main line cruiser" instead of Project Miranda. Which is, at the risk of being blunt, kind of obvious?
Like yeah, we probably aren't beating out the most affordable and rugged line cruiser ever designed by Starfleet in its history as a main line cruiser. We were not in fact designing for that, or we should have picked different options for every vote.
I mean, was that ever a hope? We were told that we could exclude scientific facilities. Given that we're designing for Starfleet, that already kills the chance of this becoming the main line cruiser. Besides, we already have cruiser types aplenty. What we don't have is a battleship, but historically battleships have played a role in our fleet, with how well the Thunderchild class did in the Earth-Romulan War.
TLDR: We already have plenty of cruisers, our fleet probably needs a proper dreadnought even if it means we don't make as many of them.
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)