Starfleet Design Bureau

[inirlan]

Come on guys, what's another 24 cost?

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Really depends on what we throw into those slot.

Shoving 4 forward-facing of the Type-1 old single torpedo launchers costs us a total of 9, so 3/4 the cost of a single RFL, while having a 4/3 the damage output.


If we go with 4 of the Type-4 mounts pointing forward then it's going to cost us a total of 20 for 144 points of burst damage.

 

[KarmaA]

If we can put an observation deck up there I'd be a very happy man.

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Cautiously optimistic about it for ice cream bar (no mechanical benefits).

 

[CanYouMeme]

I'm broadly in favor of a generous array of prototype phasers and a relatively modest torpedo armament, probably with the prototype torpedoes for cost-effectiveness. Two fore, one or two aft (probably two).

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I would argue that if the aesthetic roll-bar keeps the mass of the torpedo roll bar, then we do 2 p-ts forward one aft - more phasers less torps would go towards making this a decent cruiser, and max maneuverability with p-torps gives us a whip-around volley of 9 torps.

Leave the mass "un-weaponized" so we can up arm in refits and extend srrvice life.

 

[Gear]

[] Standard Nacelle Supports
Strategic Cruiser is cruiser, not battleship.

 

[RighteousRancor]

Cautiously optimistic about it for ice cream bar (no mechanical benefits).

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New mafia, same as the old mafia :3

 

[Skippy]

No. It can only outmaneuver the K'tinga if the K'tinga has less than 120% maneuverability. This is objective fact. Given that would involve probably a single extra engine, it's incredibly likely after the Excalibur demonstrating middle weight ships benefit from maneuver the Klingons would invest nothing in it.

As for your 'outmanuevering smaller vessels'.... where the hell is that coming from? We could have 500% manueverability and we still wouldn't be using single target against bird's of prey, meaning torpedoes are significantly less useful.

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Fair point, I was making an incorrect assumption based on the 200% Manoeuvrability statistic from the last vote.

However, that being said, there has been a persistent trend in this quest of the voterbase erroneously assuming that the capital ships cannot use torpedoes effectively against other capital ships. We don't need to have a 100% manoeuvrability advantage over a K'Tinga for torpedoes to still be incredibly useful weapons against them, probably our most useful weapons. This simply is not how Star Trek or the quest actually works.

Against Birds of Prey with the Single Target Rating, fair enough, but torpedoes still do raise our Average Damage, and fundamentally as much as it needs to defend itself against smaller vessels with phasers, the job of this ship isn't to hunt Birds of Prey. That's like going rabbit hunting with a howitzer.

 

[CanYouMeme]

New mafia, same as the old mafia :3

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E4 mafia never dies.

 

[Archduke]

We weren't asked to make a dreadnought. This is our new warp 8 heavyweight cruiser, with enough capability to solve or mitigate any issue in Federation space and enough hulls to make sure all of Federation space is covered. This could be a big stick, but I'd rather just have more sticks, considering the war losses and our current reliance on warp 7 designs for almost everything.

 

[thepsyborg]

[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)

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Still another forty minutes to go before the moratorium expires

 

[darkstarling]

Miranda class

The Miranda-class starship was a type of Federation starship operated by Starfleet during the 23rd and the 24th century. The Miranda-class had entered Starfleet service by the 2260s, which included the launch of the USS Reliant in 2264. (TOS: "Court Martial"; PIC: "The Star Gazer" dedication...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

There is literally zero percent chance that the Federation class, whatever choice we take now, is going to be built in numbers when the Miranda, God of Affordable Versatility, larger than the Excalibur class, and quite capable as a combatant for the 23rd century, is sitting right there.

The only viable role for this ship at the price point we've already baked into the design is as a big stick. The whole "fleet anchor" concept is IMO kind of silly and very RTS game inspired, but I suppose it is stated in the text of the quest so we have to accept it as canon. Either way, if we want a fleet flagship, then it being able to actually kill things is also useful.

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I admit there's a certain appeal to making the Federation class be the god of Oh Lawd He Comin, and seeing them barreling towards you for days knowing you can't stop them. But this isn't the Sovereign Class of the 23rd century. We don't need a small number of beatsticks right now. We need a larger number of still-formidable ships that can cover a lot of ground and converge on a target fast.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

Vulcans - huh, the humans are putting their nacelles in a ring structure.

Vulcans - glance to their 500kton explorers with ring nacelles.

Vulcans - Look at them. See what they have to do to have even a fraction of our power!

 

[uju32]

That's fair enough, but my case is that whilst we may not have intended to build a Big Stick, that's the result of the actual options we have chosen to take here. And going for a battlecruiser must have been in the upper end of the project remit, or those options would not have in fact been presented to us by Starfleet in the first place.

So we need to actually suck it up, accept that we are where we are and make the best of it, rather than a design which is still going to be eye-wateringly expensive no matter what we do, and under-capable for its cost.

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I dont agree

There are fundamental project limits that are defined at the very beginning of the design process by the size and configuration of the hullform you choose and the mass-volume budget it allows. At the point where you are proposing major hullform modifications five years into the design process in order to add more weapons?

I would argue that you are doing something wrong

There's also the point that a weapons pod hanging out right there is uniquely vulnerable to battle damage the way embedded launchers arent
The supply pipes that supply AM to the launchers are out on vulnerable struts, with little armoring

And finally, I think in the current meta, 300kt would be on the light side for a dreadnought
Thats barely 10ktons more than the almost century-old Sagarmartha design. If we choose to build one, in the current transitional era of ship design, with ships growing in size? Id hope it would be bigger

 

[Skippy]

We weren't asked to make a dreadnought. This is our new warp 8 heavyweight cruiser, with enough capability to solve or mitigate any issue in Federation space and enough hulls to make sure all of Federation space is covered. This could be a big stick, but I'd rather just have more sticks, considering the war losses and our current reliance on warp 7 designs for almost everything.

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Getting hung up over whether this is a "dreadnought" or a "heavy cruiser" is meaningless when these terms have no well-defined basis in Star Trek anyway. Let's instead talk about what is actually important in terms of procurement and defence economics, which is does the ship deliver on its hull cost or not? Two extra Type-IV Photon Launchers will add 10 Cost to the design, and essentially double our alpha strike firepower whilst massively boosting the Single Target Damage Rating.

We are talking about wanting to "economise" by halving our alpha strike and probably loosing a third of our single-target firepower, in exchange for what is likely to be a less than 10% cost reduction. That's simply not a good value proposition on what is an already a very expensive ship.

I admit there's a certain appeal to making the Federation class be the god of Oh Lawd He Comin, and seeing them barreling towards you for days knowing you can't stop them. But this isn't the Sovereign Class of the 23rd century. We don't need a small number of beatsticks right now. We need a larger number of still-formidable ships that can cover a lot of ground and converge on a target fast.

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This is like, fine as a goal, but we should have designed a different ship do do that.

Halving the torpedo armament of this design, which actually exists in reality and is what we're going to send to Starfleet, to save on less than ten percent of the cost, does not mean that it actually becomes a strategic heavy line cruiser, you know?

It just makes the actual design we have worse, at a cost-value tradeoff that is a clear net negative. The ship won't suddenly become affordable enough to operate in bulk, because we're talking about literally less than ten percent of the per-hull cost.

 

[Bedpotato]

[ ] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)

Time to go maximum firepower! And the dreadnoughts dread nothing at all!

 

[LOLROFL]

Miranda class

The Miranda-class starship was a type of Federation starship operated by Starfleet during the 23rd and the 24th century. The Miranda-class had entered Starfleet service by the 2260s, which included the launch of the USS Reliant in 2264. (TOS: "Court Martial"; PIC: "The Star Gazer" dedication...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

There is literally zero percent chance that the Federation class, whatever choice we take now, is going to be built in numbers when the Miranda, God of Affordable Versatility, larger than the Excalibur class, and quite capable as a combatant for the 23rd century, is sitting right there.

The only viable role for this ship at the price point we've already baked into the design is as a big stick. The whole "fleet anchor" concept is IMO kind of silly and very RTS game inspired, but I suppose it is stated in the text of the quest so we have to accept it as canon. Either way, if we want a fleet flagship, then it being able to actually kill things is also useful.

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I think that's a bit harsh, the Thunderchild's pulled off the fleet anchor role quite well during the Romulan War and the Federation class definitely has the potential the shine in such a role as well.

Assuming the Type-V Phasers scale up like the preceding Type-2 Phasers than the Type-V's on a Federation class will be dealing around 32 damage (24 base + 24/3=8) per shot.

If we take a look at the Warbook entries on Klingon warships unless the next Gen Bird of Prey is able surpass a D7's shield strength (the D7 is literally twice it's mass and isn't that old) a single hit from a Federation class's phasers will punch straight through the shields and likely cause serious hull damage.

Against current gen Klingon warships the Bird of Prey will likely straight up get one-shotted and even the D7 itself is going to be losing it's shields and taking hull damage from a single hit of a Federation class's Type-V Phaser.

D7 Heavy Cruiser [Active Production]
Mass: 120,000 Tons
Maneuverability: 120,000 Tons (Standard)
Armament: 2 Heavy Disruptor Beams, 1 Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 30
Cruise: Warp 7
Maximum: Warp 8.2
Estimated Cost: 60

...

B'rel Bird-of-Prey [Development]
Mass: 60,000 Tons
Maneuverability: ?
Armament: 2 Disruptor Cannons, ? Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: ?
Cruise: ?
Maximum: ?
Estimated Cost: 40-55

Bird-of-Prey [Active Production]
Mass: 30,000 Tons
Maneuverability: 15,000 Tons (Very High)
Armament: 2 Light Disruptor Beams, 1 Photon Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 12
Cruise: Warp 6
Maximum: Warp 7.2
Estimated Cost: 24

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[Fouredged Sword]

Thinking on it... I am not sure Starfleet NEEDS that many Federation class ships. The warp 7.4 maximum cruise and warp 7 cruise means a dozen or so of them can be within a few weeks of anywhere in Federation Space if placed well, especially if you write off covering the core as the core has ships local if an emergency happens.

The Federation as a fast response ship that complements a fleet of Mirandas that spread out and find problems for the Federation to react to actually makes sense from a logistical perspective.

 

[inirlan]

So... 4 Type-1s and 2 Type-4s are functionally identical except the later costs 1 more in exchange for advancing torpedo tech.

Either puts the Torpedo burst damage at 4/5 of the Excalibur's.

4 Type-4s is a bit cheaper than 2 RFLs, for 144 points of Torpedo Burst Damage.

Honestly, it's a tough call. 2 of the new launchers mounted forwards and 1 backwards still makes for a decent armament and might leave enough room in the budget to squeeze in the new phasers, which will matter more...

...

WAIT! @Sayle Does the standard nacelle support result in the X-Wing look? I assure you, it's absolutely critical for this vote that we know this.

 

[Karugus]

Fair point, I was making an incorrect assumption based on the 200% Manoeuvrability statistic from the last vote.

However, that being said, there has been a persistent trend in this quest of the voterbase erroneously assuming that the capital ships cannot use torpedoes effectively against other capital ships. We don't need to have a 100% manoeuvrability advantage over a K'Tinga for torpedoes to still be incredibly useful weapons against them, probably our most useful weapons. This simply is not how Star Trek or the quest actually works.

Against Birds of Prey with the Single Target Rating, fair enough, but torpedoes still do raise our Average Damage, and fundamentally as much as it needs to defend itself against smaller vessels with phasers, the job of this ship isn't to hunt Birds of Prey. That's like going rabbit hunting with a howitzer.

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And no one is saying 'no torpedoes, the Kea will rise again'- they're saying 3-4 of the new prototype torpedoes is a nice balance of damage to cost effectiveness. Restraint to tailor it's weaponry is not the same thing as outright dismissal.

A persistent trend? We redefined our military around a hyper-agile light torpedo cruiser capable of rushing down anything larger than a BoP after we did a hard pivot away from coverage at all costs. The one serious example of us making that mistake was the Kea, and it was different context. As for fighting the K'tinga, even when it outmanuevers us- probably, but let me also point out how many times are the Klingons going to send their cutting edge cruiser to solo a cutting edge battleship that practically doubles it's displacement? How many times are they going to send that cruiser out unescorted, when their tiny escorts were some of the most cost effective warships of theirs during the war?

We won the war on the back of a cruiser that excelled in one on one engagements. The Federation-class is almost always going to be outnumbered, and almost always going to be fought by an enemy formation because they do not have a peer for it. That means an emphasis on multi-target damage, *even* when it's operating alone- because frankly, any K'tinga that tries to solo this thing on it's own is a fucking idiot that doesn't need us to triple down on torpedoes to take it.

I'm not saying no torpedoes, but calling them our most important weapon system when we can be confident the Federation will handedly take a K'tinga on even with a moderate torpedo layout? When it's an almost certainty that if this cruiser fights alone it will be fighting 1 against many battles often? It screams to me that you love the Excalibur, and want to project the lessons learned from it on a ship nearly twice it's displacement that fundamentally cannot fight the same battle. A dreadnought ill-suited to fight a formation battle is worthless- especially when we do not currently have any enemy peer dreadnoughts floating about.

 

[Silvis]

I planned from the beginning to build a second Thunderchild.

So I'm fine with the Rollbar.

 

[KlavoHunter]

Or that because you arent a doctor, spending effort in learning first aid and basic medical care is a wasteful investment of time and effort.

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On a vaguely related note to this: Last night in bed I was reminding myself that this ship needs to specialize in taking care of the most common colonial problems. Previously I started making a wishlist/checklist of modules we're hoping to have.

A better way to handle this is by first listing the typical colonial incidents, and build our module checklist around that.
(Expanded Sickbay/Hospital facilities on a starship are Nice To Have but almost always considered inferior to planetside/station-based hospital facilities.)

1. Pirate/Enemy Attack:
Requirements: High Tactical ability. Basic sickbay ability. Extra Engineering ability would assist in repairing damages.

2. Diplomatic Function:
Requirements: High Warp Cruise Speeds. VIP Quarters and conference rooms. Tactical ability to deter aggressors/enforce agreements. Basic sickbay ability in case of injured/poisoned diplomats.

3. Plague
Requirements: High Warp Cruise Speeds. Basic sickbay ability. Cargo space for drugs and relief supplies. Onboard pharmaceutical laboratory to manufacture new drugs in-situ.

4. Famine
Requirements: High Warp Cruise Speeds. Cargo space for food and relief supplies.

5. Priority Cargo Delivery
Requirements: High Warp Cruise Speeds. Cargo space.

What other response profiles come to mind???

 

[Fouredged Sword]

And no one is saying 'no torpedoes, the Kea will rise again'- they're saying 3-4 of the new prototype torpedoes is a nice balance of damage to cost effectiveness. Restraint to tailor it's weaponry is not the same thing as outright dismissal.

A persistent trend? We redefined our military around a hyper-agile light torpedo cruiser capable of rushing down anything larger than a BoP after we did a hard pivot away from coverage at all costs. The one serious example of us making that mistake was the Kea, and it was different context. As for fighting the K'tinga, even when it outmanuevers us- probably, but let me also point out how many times are the Klingons going to send their cutting edge cruiser to solo a cutting edge battleship that practically doubles it's displacement? How many times are they going to send that cruiser out unescorted, when their tiny escorts were some of the most cost effective warships of theirs during the war?

We won the war on the back of a cruiser that excelled in one on one engagements. The Federation-class is almost always going to be outnumbered, and almost always going to be fought by an enemy formation because they do not have a peer for it. That means an emphasis on multi-target damage, *even* when it's operating alone- because frankly, any K'tinga that tries to solo this thing on it's own is a fucking idiot that doesn't need us to triple down on torpedoes to take it.

I'm not saying no torpedoes, but calling them our most important weapon system when we can be confident the Federation will handedly take a K'tinga on as is? When it's an almost certainty that if this cruiser fights alone it will be fighting 1 against many battles often? It screams to me that people love the Excalibur, and want to project the lessons learned from it on a ship nearly twice it's displacement that fundamentally cannot fight the same battle. A dreadnought ill-suited to fight a formation battle is worthless- especially when we do not currently have any enemy peer dreadnoughts floating about.

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Honestly my ideal is 2 new torpedoes forward, 1 aft. We need an aft armament, but I don't want to break the bank over it, especially if we make it so the phasers can fire backwards.

 

[Skippy]

Also if we had in fact designed this to be an affordable heavy line cruiser, it would still probably lose to the Miranda, which is the GOAT. Like I wouldn't have minded that given how much the Miranda gained a memetic status as the villain of the last quest by being so cost-effective we couldn't replace it. But it would be a pretty tall order.

The Miranda outmasses an Excalibur, is handy in a fight, and at least Sorta Okay at everything, which is why Starfleet loves it, and will build approximately One Morbillion of them for the next hundred years.

In terms of " has an affordable chonky line cruiser" we are currently more sorted than it is possible for any organisation in the history of the known universe to be. The idea that we need another, radically more expensive ship awkwardly trying to do the same thing does not make a great deal of sense IMO. Let the Federation be its own thing and find its own niche as an even bigger stick and fleet fagship, which is a job it can actually do well.

 

[darkstarling]

This is like, fine as a goal, but we should have designed a different ship do do that.

Halving the torpedo armament of this design, which actually exists in reality and is what we're going to send to Starfleet, to save on less than ten percent of the cost, does not mean that it actually becomes a strategic heavy line cruiser, you know?

It just makes the actual design we have worse, at a cost-value tradeoff that is a clear net negative. The ship won't suddenly become affordable enough to operate in bulk, because we're talking about literally less than ten percent of the per-hull cost.

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We have designed exactly the ship to do that. That's what the Maximum Cruise vote was about, and the vote that means we need fewer phasers to get full coverage. Whatever choice for phasers we make, we've already saved resources.

This will still be a dangerous ship - it's maneuverable for its size so it can compete one-on-one, and it's tanky with good shields and hull. So we can get by with standard torpedo armament, not something that would make a small task-force wince.

 

[Quickshot0]

2c. At least on the current nacelles, our ships can go to warp literally as fast as somebody can hit the button, so there's a good chance the initial jump will open a gap of a light-hour or two, while the pursuers react to our disappearance, calculate our track, and enter Warp themselves to pursue. (If their warp coils require a warmup period to energize properly, then it might even be more, though I wouldn't count on it.) Which doesn't change the ultimate outcome of the chase at all, of course, but does increase the radius within which we might be able to reach someone to help or somewhere to hide.

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When one thinks about it, nothing really stops a ship like this from jumping in and out of warp rapidly several times in a row. Might not help to much if the opposition has a similar fast warp system, but if they have more like the Federations traditional system with a charge it could be a bit of a pain for staying on the ship then. Certainly an idea in trying to quickly reposition one self in a fight and gain a little bit of time I guess.

We may as well design a good dreadnought which can trade sufficiently effectively against Klingon ships that it justifies its immense cost, instead of a sub-par one that can't.

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Of course the question is if the Klingon any time soon would have anything that could remotely hope to stand up to a maximized loadout, or if that would turn out to be overkill. I mean yeah, eventually the Klingon will build bigger, but by then the Explorer will have been designed and further tech developments will have happened.

So one does have to at least ponder if one might not overshoot in to overkill against any present or medium term threats. As if that happened the ship would actually become incapable of fully utilizing its abilities for much of its lifespan.

So in that sense since we know the upcoming Ktinga shield strength, I guess normally that would be something one might aim for to counter effectively and maybe a little bit more for safety and perhaps leave it at that.

 

[uju32]

Getting hung up over whether this is a "dreadnought" or a "heavy cruiser" is meaningless when these terms have no well-defined basis in Star Trek anyway. Let's instead talk about what is actually important in terms of procurement and defence economics, which is does the ship deliver on its hull cost or not? Two extra Type-IV Photon Launchers will add 10 Cost to the design, and essentially double our alpha strike firepower whilst massively boosting the Single Target Damage Rating.

We are talking about wanting to "economise" by halving our alpha strike and probably loosing a third of our single-target firepower, in exchange for what is likely to be a less than 10% cost reduction. That's simply not a good value proposition on what is an already a very expensive ship.

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If it was just adding an additional two launchers for 10 points inside the hull, behind the armor, you would have my support

But its not
Its a significant hullform alteration near the end of the project in order to add additional weapons in a pod whose antimatter supply pipelines are now uniquely unprotected by the bulk of the rest of the ship and its armor around them

Thats a pass for me