[X] Unleash the Martyrs with fire support!
Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
- Thread starter torroar
- Start date
- Mature
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy intrigue happens male protagonist ck2 quest belief stronk count of cannons drunken wisdom foes in the shadows graf of guns (guns) if you have a question check the front page first it begins... mountain vietnam ogres paranoia rising unseen enemies everywhere use the search function before asking waifu wars wake the bull
[X] Unleash the Martyrs, and Stand at the Gates!
Seroiusly. FUCKING SERIOUSLY?!
Are you you saying that you never said the qoutes below? That I made them up?
Listen. I have no problem with people having different opinions or standing up for them. But this is not that. This is you blatantly lying to people's faces about the arguments made to strengthen your position. Not cool man.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I have to disagree with some of these points. First off, the Ogre Archers only failed cause of bad rolls. You gotta remember we have game mechanics on our side, just cause they took an L against the dragon earlier is absolutely no reason to write them off as a defense when they could roll a nat 100 next time the dragon shows up and wreck it. We can't say "oh he's too good for our archers so our artillery is screwed", just cause they had some shit rolls. Secondly, Oskana was always meant to be the hero delivery system, even with her armor it's still dragon > gryphon, and the Pegasi + Roland, in my opinion, absolutely did well enough, and took low enough damage, as far as we can tell, to continue to counter the Sorceresses in the air while Oskana and co. go after it, or go after the dragon while Air Nat continues with the sorceresses. We really do still have ways to deal with things thanks to the fact this operates off dice, and not like, unit health alla Total War. Like, I agree that artillery is better put to use blasting into the clumps of enemies than trying to snipe the enemy artillery, but saying we're out of defensive options is just incorrect.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
@torroar I've been meaning to ask actually, why did Oskana not do more in melee to the Dragon? Her attacks were said to cause mostly superficial damage, but my understanding has been that Gryphons are one of the few apex predators that could actually feasibly pick a fight with dragon and not lose. I mean still, huge disadvantage, Dragons are Dragons, but yeah.
I'm just sort of trying to rearrange my opinions on the bestiary in light of this, because i really did not expect her to be rebuffed so easily.
I'm just sort of trying to rearrange my opinions on the bestiary in light of this, because i really did not expect her to be rebuffed so easily.
That's amusing.
I never, at any point, said that the dragon was invincible.
I said we dont have the resources to deal with it.
Which is literally true, and you dont have a reply for. So instead you resort to some schoolkid tier capslock shitflinging instead to try and cover up for the fact you don't have an answer.
I dont have a reason to lie online, so I don't. Period.
You however, have ample reason to lie (because you dont have any other response) and are doing so right now.
To win an argument.
Literal, naked projection.
And any other measure can fail because of bad rolls. That's not really a counter argument to my point, if anything it makes it more stark that barring a preponderance of force anything we muster might still be insufficient to stop it.
I dont truck in that scenario, but at this stage of the fight it's more efficient to side step it outright. So that's what I'm proposing we do rather than hoping we can count on responders to hold it back that failed to do so even when they were fresh.
Can they get lucky and succeed this time? Sure. But they can also get unlucky and fail again as well. That needs to be acknowledged.
Last edited:
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
the good news of course is that the remaining Dragon Rider can't really risk running around like he did before, because he'll get dogpiled by the same formation that managed to kill two of his peers in the same engagement. If he tries that shit again, chances are good he gets dogpiled and meets the same fate as everyone else. Because while we're tired, we can also throw literally everything on him if he tries this shit again.
Last edited:
Unfortunately that's not the case. The Supreme Sorceress and her Pegasii backup along with Dreadbringer are going to keep those formations (and attached supercombatants) occupied in the immediate future, Alectai.
That's kind of the whole problem we're facing right now
Hmm, not sure about that. It's been said that Hippogryphs on occasion are so insanely territorial that they'll fight a dragon to the death if their territory is invaded, but nothing certain on them winning. No real sources on grphons vs. dragons, lore-wise, that I can find immediately with a 5 second looksie. Possible though. Armor piercing is definitely an upgrade option and Oskana does have that, reasonably.
Thing is though, Venomfang was not an 'average' Black Dragon. I believe I specifically mentioned that he was much larger and tougher than the other two dragons. Black Dragons are warped from birth with powerful Dhar magic, and unlike the Asur the Druchii see them largely as resources to be done with as they please. Experimenting with all sorts of things on them. And Oskana was still tearing away at his scales. And he still had vulnerable spots that Oskana could have taken advantage of with her intelligence that a typical hippogryph likely would not have managed. Eyes, tongue, mouth, the uh...area that Frederick hit.
Plus, Venomfang wasn't doing much to Oskana, either. The two of them were basically reduced to angry physical slamming and smashing into one another because one was an especially powerful Black Dragon and on the other end you had Oskana with her supreme durability.
@Altom
@TehChron
Guys, loving the enthusiasm for engaging with what's going on in the quest. But how about let's all take a step back here, huh? Let the heat die down for a bit, maybe, cool off. Like. For a good bit. Okay?
You never said the word, yes. But what other conclusion is someone supposed to derive from the qoutes below other then "the Dragon can do what ever it want and we can't stop it"? Which in practical terms is the same thing as it being invulnerable.
I have more to say, but sinse torroar asked to stop, I'll just add this. If your plan wins we would have no option but pray that druchii artillery rolls like crap. Otherwise we won't have an army by the end of this fight.
The word you're looking for is "strawman".
That's when you attack an imaginary argument that you extrapolated and twisted to make your own position appear better by contrast, refuting it instead due to an inability to address the points your opponent in the debate actually did make.
So I'll say it again:
What I said is what I said. Not what you wish I had said. Not what you would have said in my place.
And with that I'll step back as per torroars request.
- Pronouns
- He/his/him
[X] Like Cordwood, Stack Terror
Light Seeker
Do you hear it whispering?
[X] Unleash the Martyrs, and Stand at the Gates!
We can handle Druchii's infantry in more depth after we deal with artillery, and the idea of luring them into what is essentially chokepoint is exactly what works very well against infantry-based assault.
Also, I don't want to gamble on Delfs' sense of general self-interest when this raid was planned for the sake of their pride from the start. Not when we talk about hyper-competitive top-down type of society like theirs, attempt to reach for immediate personal gain instead of strategic one would be more likely even with already consolidated command.
We can handle Druchii's infantry in more depth after we deal with artillery, and the idea of luring them into what is essentially chokepoint is exactly what works very well against infantry-based assault.
Also, I don't want to gamble on Delfs' sense of general self-interest when this raid was planned for the sake of their pride from the start. Not when we talk about hyper-competitive top-down type of society like theirs, attempt to reach for immediate personal gain instead of strategic one would be more likely even with already consolidated command.
Last edited:
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
If we go by TT then Griffons, and for that matter Hippogryphs, are only a match for the weakest smallest dragons like Sun Dragons. Larger and more powerful dragons are distinctly more powerful then then Griffons.
In a nutshell in terms of physical stats on a scale of 1 to 10 (3 being an average unexceptional human for the most part) Griffons and Hippogryphs tend to largely have 5s for their physical stats while Sun Dragons have 5s, Moon Dragons have 6s, Star Dragons have 7s, and Great Dragons have 8s.
So even an "average" dragon should probably be more then a match for any Griffon in terms of physical ability if we go by TT.
Blackout
Fed By Comments
- Location
- Who knows?
I haven't been able to find any direct comparisons for Griffons vs Dragons, but High Elves 8th edition armybook says that even young dragons can tear a Manticore apart or rip a Wyvern's head off, and I reckon those are in about the same weight class as Gryphons.
Edit: Now that I think about it, there was one clash that appeared in the Sundering trilogy, where a Caledorian Dragonrider completely dominated a Nagarythian Prince on Griffon, smashing it out of the air with contemptuous ease.
Last edited:
I hope not.
The courts may want it sanitzed but our deeds should echo in the sheets! It should be the viagra song so that we may deal an ever growing damage against Chaos: Bringing more elf children in to Malus to appreciate good Bugman's!
… and bring Asur, Asrai, and Eonir populations up everywhere of course!
Something I wish Tyrion gets to appreciate soon enough, everytime he hears of Freddy.
[X] Like Cordwood, Stack Terror
The less Druichii in the world = less total elves in Malus = Honorbound Asur, Asrai/Eonir getting "busy" to help offset possible Dawi population no. overtake = More chances of daughterus to adopt!
-10/10 still winning!
So I decided to bust out my old 8th edition army books and check in more detail.
Here is what I've got:
| WS | S | T | W | I | A | Relevant rules | |
| Sun Dragon | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3+ Scaly skin |
| Moon Dragon | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 3 | 5 | 3+ Scaly skin |
| Star Dragon | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 2 | 6 | 3+ Scaly skin |
| Ulthuan Griffon | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 4 | |
| Imperial Griffon | 5 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 |
Legend:
WS - weapon skill (higher= more likely to hit/ less likely to be hit)
S - Strengh (how hard creature hits, higher values also go through armor better)
T - Toughness (how durable a creature is)
W - wounds (how many damaging hits a creature can take before going down)
I - Initiative (how fast and nimble a creature is)
A - Attack (how many blows a creature can score per turn of fighting)
So, going strictly by the tabletop, elven griffons are fastest but weakest creatures on the list.
Imperial griffons are slower, but stronger and tougher, being pretty much a match for youngest dragons (birds have 6 str vs 5 but no armor save from scales) although with a caveat that on tabletop S 6 would reduce 3+ save to 6+, so almost useless.
Moon Dragons are both tougher and more capable on the offensive then Imperial griffons (+ 1 tougness and 3+ save as well as + 1 WS and Attack) but slower.
And Star Dragons are better from just about any angle bar speed.
If we try to apply that to our fight there are 2 considerations
Generic Black dragons have the same stats as Moon Dragons. However sinse the one we killed is supposed to be exceptional, we could use the stats of the Star Dragon. On the other hand Oskana is using a breastplate with the Rune of Adamant on it increasing her Toughness to 10.
So Oskana will be faster but it would be a bit of a problem for her to meaningfully hurt the dragon. Not an insurmountable one, as she would be needing 5+ on a dice, same as a human soldier with a sword would need to hurt an orc. The Dragon would be landing more hits on Oskana, but the breastplate he would only be scoring meaningfull hits on 6 (Str 7 vs T 10). So, overall, without riders, I would say the Dragon should win, but the Bird is bound to get some licks in.
Last edited:
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
It's time children for......... MATH HAMMER!!
As said we'll assume a Star Dragon stat line for Venomfang and an Imperial Griffon stat line for Oskana, with Oskana also having T10 due to her Rune of Adamant.
Oskana hits first, she does 4 attacks, each attack hits on a 4+ meaning a 1/2 chance of hitting. Oskana wounds on a 5+ meaning a 1/3 chance of wounding. The dragon has a 3+ armor save which due to Oskana's S6 is reduced to a 6+ save, meaning Oskana has a 5/6 chance of passing the dragon's armor save.
4*(1/2)*(1/3)*(5/6) =5/9 meaning that Oskana does an average of 5/9 wounds to the dragon each round. Given the dragon has an assumed 7 wounds, it would take Oskana on average 13 rounds of attacks to kill Venmonfang.
On to Venomfang. Venomfang has 6 attacks, each attack hits on a 3+ so has a 2/3 chance of hitting, due to the Rune of Adamant Oskana has T10 so Venomfang wounds on a 6+ meaning a 1/6 chance of wounding. Oskana gets no armor save while having 5 wounds.
6*(2/3)*(1/6) = 2/3 meaning that Venomfang on average does to Oskana 2/3 wounds per a round or basically 2 wounds every 3 rounds. Given Oskana has 5 wounds it would take Venomfang 8 rounds on average to kill Oskana.
So it takes Oskana 13 rounds to kill Venmonfang on average but takes Venomfang 8 rounds to kill Oskana on average. Venomfang wins even taking into account Oskana attacking first due to higher initiative.
Note that the Master Rune of Adamant is a huge game changer in this. Without it assuming these stat lines Venomfang would destroy Oskana in two rounds.
Last edited: