relies on its quite literal middle management Caste to keep their entire machine running.
Quoting just this, but a response to the plan overall.

You pretty much presuppose that druchii will retreat once they take sufficient casualties in their what, elven infantry? Why though. What makes you think that the people running the day to day operations on the Black Ark are the same people as the soldiers we are facing?

Furthermore, while shooting at artillery will cause less damage directly, it would also reduce the effects druchii artillery has on our troops on the walls allowing them to do more damage, so the difference in incurred casualties is going to be less then you imply.
 
Not sure Freddy's more useful at the gates, I feel like he'd be better on the walls so he has a better view of things, but I've been swayed on prioritising the Druchii infantry.
You're not wrong under broader tactical concerns, but the wincon for the Druchii here is saving face, and Freddie's established himself extremely powerfully as the grand prize corpse of this affair.

Even without the Hand of Khaine dudes religious mission, an investment of all three Lord tier units on the field towards killing Freddy makes it abundantly clear what their priority is here.

So hes more useful where more people can keep him alive, even if hes less.visible that also means hes less vulnerable to another attempted side swipe attempt or getting ambushed.

Because that's the stick by which the Druchii will measure their progress: How close they are to killing Freddy. How much more do they need to invest before they can kill Freddy.

How much more can they afford to throw away trying to kill Freddy?

Because the Druchii can totally retreat if they feel the need to. Literally just fall back into their Arks, hole themselves up, and gun their engines until they can make it back to sea.

They reasonably can assume that we have nothing to stop them from pulling such a stunt. We just need to get them to that point first.
 
You pretty much presuppose that druchii will retreat once they take sufficient casualties in their what, elven infantry? Why though. What makes you think that the people running the day to day operations on the Black Ark are the same people as the soldiers we are facing?
Why wouldn't they be? If you dont work, you dont eat. And if you force people to work for you, then they'll gank you the first chance they get.

I'm not suggesting we're killing Bill, Assistant VP of Druchii Grond Marketing.

I'm suggesting we kill each of his subordinates en masse and depopulated his department in its entirety, which means their jobs don't get done, which trails upwards and downwards in terms of fucking over Bill's long term prospects, which affects HR who need to recruit and train up those replacements

All while hoping that their inability to meet this absurd challenge doesnt get all of them sacked and replaced by someone more ambitious and eager to take their position

Elves take the long view of things. It's their nature. And if they could satisfy their egos by running all their infrastructure and keeping their slaves in line by themselves theyd never bother recruiting a power base in the first place.

People are hired because jobs need to be done.

It's a basic logistical reality

We kill those people. Their jobs dont get done. That fucks over their bosses, and so on and so forth.

Edit: And in a hyper competitive market like Druchii society, that kind of weakness results in a death spiral if not impressively managed in the immediate aftermath.

Edit2: Like, normally sheer volume of chaff would mean that this logic wouldnt apply, as there would still be more expendable fodder where the previous waves came from.

But due to the various plays that the Druchii made in setting up the battle thus far they have already tapped that well.

There are no more screening harpies in the air. There are no explosively inclined Bound to force breakthroughs and hurl.at walls to melt them.at cost to their own lives

As the update illustrates, we're past that into the meat of the Druchii forces. The ones they invested because they feel it's worth letting them survive more than a casual glancing blow on the battlefield.

By definition they are worth something. Which means that their loss will be felt. Even if it's a pinpricks worth individually, en masse that will add up.

Artillery to hem them in.

Flagellants to punish grouping up.

A cavalry charge to break apart any concentrations of force.

All to funnel them directly into the gates before they can close again, where our Ogres are waiting and ready.

It's a perfect corralling setup to turn the path of the cavalry charge into a charnel house, and that's the best kind of thing to teach those assets caution on approaching us.

Which will force a change in tempo to the fight, one advantageous to us since itll make the Druchii fear attempting to get in close in the absence of sufficient screening elements to safeguard their lives.

All of these are good things for us.
 
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Maranith might be the toughest humanoid we've fought. No healing effect item, 1 bokdrungni wound, 3 runefang wounds, 6+ arrow wounds, a few dagger cuts, hit with draconic acid breath, an enormous fall and he was still struggling until we impaled him on a flaming dragonlance. He got his own licks in too. Bastard was no joke.
 
Why wouldn't they be? If you dont work, you dont eat. And if you force people to work for you, then they'll gank you the first chance they get.

I'm not suggesting we're killing Bill, Assistant VP of Druchii Grond Marketing.

I'm suggesting we kill each of his subordinates en masse and depopulated his department in its entirety, which means their jobs don't get done, which trails upwards and downwards in terms of fucking over Bill's long term prospects, which affects HR who need to recruit and train up those replacements

All while hoping that their inability to meet this absurd challenge doesnt get all of them sacked and replaced by someone more ambitious and eager to take their position

Elves take the long view of things. It's their nature. And if they could satisfy their egos by running all their infrastructure and keeping their slaves in line by themselves theyd never bother recruiting a power base in the first place.

People are hired because jobs need to be done.

It's a basic logistical reality

We kill those people. Their jobs dont get done. That fucks over their bosses, and so on and so forth.

Edit: And in a hyper competitive market like Druchii society, that kind of weakness results in a death spiral if not impressively managed in the immediate aftermath.
Again, you are assuming that the druchii right now on the field of battle are essentially militias who also have important roles to play in peacetime. Rather then professional soldiers whose only role in druchii society in general and on the Black Ark in particular is to fight in their many wars. I am failing to see the logic behind that assumption. Doubly so when it gets to the highest priority target, namely Executioners.
 
Humans and Asur sometimes manage to accomplish improbable feats of fortitude through heroic, righteous fury and strength, absolute belief and zealotry.

Dwarfs can sometimes do the same, but also can hold on through sheer stubbornness that reckons with reality itself at times. And, if the Grudge is great enough, burning indignance on a scale that belongs to fury.

Druchii have contempt and hatred. Burning, boiling, all consuming, absolute, bitterest, hatred. That's how Malekith survived the Flame of Asuryan and the subsequent grafting of his armor onto his ravaged body, that's how Malus kept himself going despite all the various crazy wounds and injuries he sustained in his trilogy, that's how his sorta lover Lhunara managed to impress the Chaos Gods herself with sheer hatred to the point that they went and revived her as a revenant so that she could try to take revenge on Malus, and so on and so forth.

Maranith wasn't filled with fear, or terror, or whatever, throughout that entire fight. He was surprised at a few moments, incredulous at others, but overall his dominating emotion leading up to and during his death was absolute hatred. For Frederick, for Ostland, for the Empire, for humanity as a concept.
 
Like, straight up.

If we butcher the Druchii en masse, they're going to reorient their entire offensive into resisting the artillery barrage instead of pushing for the Gates in order to stem their losses.

That likely will take the form of using the Warbeasts as mobile cover while their artillery tries to pin down our own artillery teams.

Which means that the War Beasts wont be able to play to their best strengths of running wild as a super heavy disrupting element, and the enemy artillery wont be able to focus on wearing down our defenses more directly either.

Freeing up our own superheavies to dictate the terms of their own engagement. All good things for us.
 
Maranith wasn't filled with fear, or terror, or whatever, throughout that entire fight. He was surprised at a few moments, incredulous at others, but overall his dominating emotion leading up to and during his death was absolute hatred. For Frederick, for Ostland, for the Empire, for humanity as a concept.
"With hate, all things are possible." - Malus Darkblade
 
Again, you are assuming that the druchii right now on the field of battle are essentially militias who also have important roles to play in peacetime. Rather then professional soldiers whose only role in druchii society in general and on the Black Ark in particular is to fight in their many wars. I am failing to see the logic behind that assumption. Doubly so when it gets to the highest priority target, namely Executioners.
Do you not know of the ample historical examples of caste systems that function in the same way? The reason that professional soldiery exists as a class is as a deterrent against insurrection or attacks by an outside force.

All of Druchii society qualifies for both roles, and without a critical mass to serve as deterrent for each individual threat, one will inevitably take a shot at the surviving leadership of those Black Arks. Which will lead to more shots being taken until such time as one succeeds or a sufficiently brutal reprisal puts enough fear into potential rivals so as to serve as it's own deterrent.

I don't see what there is to fail to understand. Helotes. Roman citizenry. Take your pick in India. Ming China. And so on so forth

Edit: And I'm not talking about the Executioners. From the start I expected them to go all in, which is why I want Freddy at the gates.

There are three factions represented here. The Ark headed by Caladors Bane. The Ark headed by the Grand Sorceress. The Khaine Kontingent.

The first may be approaching the red line point I referred to as our potential strategic wincon. The second is flirting with it right now by committing the forces it has to the field, and the third is here for purposes of religious zealotry.

So long as two out of three retreat to their Arks, our assembled units can eat the no doubt ruinous cost necessary to handle the Executioners and put them down successfully.
 
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Do you not know of the ample historical examples of caste systems that function in the same way? The reason that professional soldiery exists as a class is as a deterrent against insurrection or attacks by an outside force.

All of Druchii society qualifies for both roles, and without a critical mass to serve as deterrent for each individual threat, one will inevitably take a shot at the surviving leadership of those Black Arks. Which will lead to more shots being taken until such time as one succeeds or a sufficiently brutal reprisal puts enough fear into potential rivals so as to serve as it's own deterrent.

I don't see what there is to fail to understand. Helotes. Roman citizenry. Take your pick in India. Ming China. And so on so forth
I could see perhaps how this applies to the druchii society as a whole. But I fail to understand which threat " will take a shot at the surviving leadership of those Black Arks" Who is going to attack them once we killed off X percentage of their infantry and why would said threat not attack them if they get defeated through other ways here?
 
I could see perhaps how this applies to the druchii society as a whole. But I fail to understand which threat " will take a shot at the surviving leadership of those Black Arks" Who is going to attack them once we killed off X percentage of their infantry and why would said threat not attack them if they get defeated through other ways here?

I think it's far easier and far less humiliating to replace beasts and craftsmanship than elves, is his point in very short hand.

[X] Like Cordwood, Stack Terror
 
Like, straight up.

If we butcher the Druchii en masse, they're going to reorient their entire offensive into resisting the artillery barrage instead of pushing for the Gates in order to stem their losses.

That likely will take the form of using the Warbeasts as mobile cover while their artillery tries to pin down our own artillery teams.

Which means that the War Beasts wont be able to play to their best strengths of running wild as a super heavy disrupting element, and the enemy artillery wont be able to focus on wearing down our defenses more directly either.

Freeing up our own superheavies to dictate the terms of their own engagement. All good things for us.
Hanging back and letting the enemy shoot you is the worst way of dealing with bombardment. That's where "soviet infantry charged through minefields" meme has it's origins. Best way to deal with our bombardment for them is to suppress our artillery with their own ranged assets as much as they can and then close in as fast as possible.
 
I could see perhaps how this applies to the druchii society as a whole. But I fail to understand which threat " will take a shot at the surviving leadership of those Black Arks" Who is going to attack them once we killed off X percentage of their infantry and why would said threat not attack them if they get defeated through other ways here?
Ambitious surviving subordinates? Other Druchii who want to take their Black Arks for themselves?

They have considerations beyond this fight, it's why I called it a total disaster for them and highlighted Freddy as their strategic objective to salvage the humiliation this defense has represented for them.

The Druchii have never, at any point, failed to assume that they're going win this battle and tap dance on the corpses of the Ostlanders. Thus the real threats for them are factors not present here.

Again; this was supposed to be a milk run for them.

Word of this is gonna get out no matter what.

That's where "soviet infantry charged through minefields" meme has it's origins.
*gestures at Druchii Modus Operandi*

The Soviet comparison is fairly apt for this whole situation they're facing, actually.

Edit: That being said, that's literally what I just described.

The point of mobile cover is that it moves, you know? And why their artillery would.keep firing at our own. To suppress it.

It's highly advantageous for our battlestate if that happens since it leaves us with wiggle room to respond to any further changes to the board
 
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Adhoc vote count started by rokafella on Dec 17, 2022 at 4:47 PM, finished with 246 posts and 56 votes.
  • 59

    [X] Unleash the Martyrs, and Stand at the Gates!
    [X] Unleash the Martyrs!
    [X] Like Cordwood, Stack Terror
    [X] Unleash the Martyrs!
    -[X] Release the Flagellants onto the enemy as the elites attempt to advance to reach the Final Wall of Salkalten, then let the cavalry follow behind to wreak havoc before retreating back through the gates
    -[X] Focus on the enemy artillery that is now present on the battlefield
    -[X] Re-task the Eonir to focusing on the flyers to support the Whitewings and Oskana+Natasha with their superior accuracy ensuring no chance of friendly fire
    -[X] Stay on the walls, which carries its own dangers
    [X] Unleash the Martyrs, and Stand at the Gates!
    -[X] Release the Flagellants onto the enemy as the elites attempt to advance to reach the Final Wall of Salkalten, then let the cavalry follow behind to wreak havoc before retreating back through the gates
    -[X] Focus on the enemy artillery that is now present on the battlefield
    -[X] Re-task the Eonir to focusing on the flyers to support the Whitewings and Oskana+Natasha with their superior accuracy ensuring no chance of friendly fire
    -[X] Stand at the gates to fight if they are opened or broken through, which carries its own dangers
    [X] Unleash the Martyrs with fire support!
    [X] Release the Flagellants onto the enemy as the elites attempt to advance to reach the Final Wall of Salkalten, then let the cavalry follow behind to wreak havoc before retreating back through the gates
    [X] Focus on the enemy artillery that is now present on the battlefield
    [X] Re-task the Eonir to focusing on the flyers to support the Whitewings and Oskana+Natasha with their superior accuracy ensuring no chance of friendly fire
    [X] Stand at the gates to fight if they are opened or broken through, which carries its own dangers
    [X] Unleash the Martyrs with fire support!
    -[X] Release the Flagellants onto the enemy as the elites attempt to advance to reach the Final Wall of Salkalten, then let the cavalry follow behind to wreak havoc before retreating back through the gates
    -[X] Focus on the enemy artillery that is now present on the battlefield
    -- [X] make one volley at the enemy infantry just before flaggelants charge in, to disrupt the enemy formation.
    -[X] Re-task the Eonir to focusing on the flyers to support the Whitewings and Oskana+Natasha with their superior accuracy ensuring no chance of friendly fire
    -[X] Stay on the walls, which carries its own dangers
    [X] Unleash the Martyrs with fire support!
    -[X] Release the Flagellants onto the enemy as the elites attempt to advance to reach the Final Wall of Salkalten, then let the cavalry follow behind to wreak havoc before retreating back through the gates
    -[X] Focus on the enemy artillery that is now present on the battlefield
    -- [X] make one volley at the enemy infantry just before flaggelants charge in, to disrupt the enemy formation.
    [X] Like Cordwood, Stack Terror
    -[X] Release the Flagellants onto the enemy as the elites attempt to advance to reach the Final Wall of Salkalten, then let the cavalry follow behind to wreak havoc before retreating back through the gates
    -[X] Focus on killing as many Druchii as possible
    -[X] Re-task the Eonir to focusing on the flyers to support the Whitewings and Oskana+Natasha with their superior accuracy ensuring no chance of friendly fire
    -[X] Stand at the gates to fight if they are opened or broken through, which carries its own dangers
 
Best way to deal with our bombardment for them is to suppress our artillery with their own ranged assets as much as they can and then close in as fast as possible.
In all seriousness

That likely will take the form of using the Warbeasts as mobile cover while their artillery tries to pin down our own artillery teams.
You quoted me saying this right before repeating what I had said. What did you mean by repeating it in that manner? I'm confused as to your meaning here.
 
Im just think that the prospect of the druichi larping as the japanese government due the amount of loses the humans inflict on them would he comical.
 
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