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*Elder Race cough* I think it is fair to say that both the dwarfs and elves were building libraries long before the ancestors of those Verenans were even literate. This is not just me being glib mind, but a reminder that this is a library in a dwarf Karak where the Verenans would have practically no support for any sort of 'institutional capture'.

Do dwarves open their libraries to other species? Do they have a mandate to share knowledge?

No. They don't.

And so the things I'm concerned about Verenians doing to our library- restricting access and clamping down on who gets to see what- are EXACTLY the same sort of things dwarf librarians would do too.

The dwarves aren't going to serve as a counterweight to these concerns because they agree with them, culturally.

Please address the content of our concerns instead of just trying to shoot them down as irrational.

This is an assumption that is not based on fact, because Verenans revel in the differences between them. I'm 100% sure we can find someone who matches our belief and principles of what a library should be and happens to be a Verenan. That is just what it means to be a Verenan, that they're not a monolithic entity with a central structure that tells them what and how to think and believe.

Sure. It also means that literally every agreement we negotiate is going to be with that specific branch of the cult, not the cult as a whole.

If this is true, then we won't be able to negotiate to get books from "Verenians", it'll have to be specific Verenian temples. Because no monolithic central authority.

On the other hand, IF we can get an agreement from the cult as a whole, it pretty strongly implies enough centralization that my concerns can't be waved away.

and as rude as this is, they dont matter in the politics of the karak, at least as far as we and the library are concerned


And this is what causes resentment and political trouble between halflings and others.

It is rude. Being rude to your neighbors is stupid, if you want their help and buy in. Because bluntly, the entrance to the library doesn't face a dwarven Karak- it faces a halfling village inside that Karak.
 
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Do dwarves open their libraries to other species? Do they have a mandate to share knowledge?

No. They don't.

And so the things I'm concerned about Verenians doing to our library- restricting access and clamping down on who gets to see what- are EXACTLY the same sort of things dwarf librarians would do too.

The dwarves aren't going to serve as a counterweight to these concerns because they agree with them, culturally.

Please address the content of our concerns instead of just trying to shoot them down as irrational.

The Verenens we hire for the position are the ones we choose, the cult of Verena isn't centralised, if we don't like what is being put on offer we choose a different temple and library and try again.

On top of that they don't set policy Mathilde does. This doesn't seem like a remotely reasonable concern, besides which we don't want ALL knowledge to be shared. some parts of the library are correctly off limits.
 
i doubt this very much. the only even halfway political entity in the halfling society is the lodge and yes, they do partially share the name but the lodge and the library of quinsberry are (as far as we know) absolutely not connected. the only thing we get out of this are geneaology records that the halflings of karak eight peak might like... and as rude as this is, they dont matter in the politics of the karak, at least as far as we and the library are concerned. (they do have influence over the food production but eh, we really dont care about that.)
We very much do care about that.

This argument frustrates me. The longer it goes on the more I feel like it becomes one big game of trying to downplay the other faction (Verena or Halflings take your pick) and people trying their best to paint them in a negative light about them.

I prefer Verena, but I will also point out that Halflings matter far more than you think they do. The Lodge is not their only political entity, they are a powerhouse in the Empire's food supply chain because they produce the greatest crop yield from having the most fertile land in the Empire. They are a powerful trading entity that grants Central and Southern Stirland much of its wealth because they get to trade Halfling goods out of the Moot.

The Halflings are the sole suppliers of bulk supplies of Tobacco in the Empire, which is considered a luxury good. The Halflings are the best leatherworkers in the Empire, producing the best leather armor and equipment within its bounds, surpassing the Dwarves who vastly prefer working with steel over animal goods.

The Halflings make up one of the 15 Elector Votes, and Page 216 of the WFRP 2E Core Book says this:

"It is the block vote of the Sigmar contingent that has held the throne in Reikland in recent times, leading to many claims that the cult of Sigmar has a disproportionate amount of power; claims usually made by Ar-Ulric, who will traditionally cast his vote for the Count of Middenland, should he be a contender at the election. The Elder of the Moot is usually quite happy to vote for the heir of the previous Emperor, should there be one. However, it was the controversial vote of Elder Gumble Sparrowthew that hurled the Empire into nine years of anarchy following the death of Boris Goldgather in 1115. The crisis only ended with the election of Emperor Mandred in 1124."

You heard that right. The Elder of the Moot's vote caused the Empire to fall into chaos for 9 years.

It's very easy to underestimate Halflings, but I don't think their political power should be underplayed. They play as vital a role in Imperial society as Dwarves, arguably more actually. Food matters, and that food gives them power.
 
The question of when and how to involve Verenans in the organization of our library is completely unimportant right now because this vote isn't about getting Verenan librarians. It is about getting a book deal, no more, no less.
@Boney What would the results of voting to approach the Verenans look like? Would it be Mathilde approaching one of their libraries for a copy rights agreement? Trying to recruit some librarians? A subvote to decide on Mathildes approach/priorities?
It would consist of seeking an arrangement with the Verenans to have access to their libraries.
And when it comes to getting access to Verenan libraries the fact that some people in the cult will cooperate isn't an argument against the concerns raised. The whole point is that we want to get access to as many Verenan libraries as possible, even the ones held by less accommodating sects.
 
The question of when and how to involve Verenans in the organization of our library is completely unimportant right now because this vote isn't about getting Verenan librarians. It is about getting a book deal, no more, no less.

You undermine your own argument. If that is all this is, why is it important to do it now, rather than after we are in a better position to be treated as equals and not supplicants?
 
The Halflings are the sole suppliers of bulk supplies of Tobacco in the Empire, which is considered a luxury good. The Halflings are the best leatherworkers in the Empire, producing the best leather armor and equipment within its bounds, surpassing the Dwarves who vastly prefer working with steel over animal goods.
Let me elaborate on this topic. The Empire's exotic luxury goods cost the following per pound:

Chilis 67 gc
Chocolate 67 gc
Coffee 33 gc
Tea 2 gc
Tobacco 10 gc

Chillis and Chocolate are unbelievably rare, likely because of how far you have to go to get them. Coffee comes from Araby and the Southlands, so it's very expensive to justify the trip. Tea is more readily available, but still noticably expensive. Tobacco is 5 times the cost of Tea in the Empire per pound. The Halflings are the only ones that make it because of the Greenleaf Hills. Which by the way the guy in charge of that place performs blood sacrifices every full moon to appease some sort of local spirit to ensure the harvest is always super bountiful. That's just canon for you though.
 
We very much do care about that.

This argument frustrates me. The longer it goes on the more I feel like it becomes one big game of trying to downplay the other faction (Verena or Halflings take your pick) and people trying their best to paint them in a negative light about them.

I prefer Verena, but I will also point out that Halflings matter far more than you think they do. The Lodge is not their only political entity, they are a powerhouse in the Empire's food supply chain because they produce the greatest crop yield from having the most fertile land in the Empire. They are a powerful trading entity that grants Central and Southern Stirland much of its wealth because they get to trade Halfling goods out of the Moot.

The Halflings are the sole suppliers of bulk supplies of Tobacco in the Empire, which is considered a luxury good. The Halflings are the best leatherworkers in the Empire, producing the best leather armor and equipment within its bounds, surpassing the Dwarves who vastly prefer working with steel over animal goods.

The Halflings make up one of the 15 Elector Votes, and Page 216 of the WFRP 2E Core Book says this:

"It is the block vote of the Sigmar contingent that has held the throne in Reikland in recent times, leading to many claims that the cult of Sigmar has a disproportionate amount of power; claims usually made by Ar-Ulric, who will traditionally cast his vote for the Count of Middenland, should he be a contender at the election. The Elder of the Moot is usually quite happy to vote for the heir of the previous Emperor, should there be one. However, it was the controversial vote of Elder Gumble Sparrowthew that hurled the Empire into nine years of anarchy following the death of Boris Goldgather in 1115. The crisis only ended with the election of Emperor Mandred in 1124."

You heard that right. The Elder of the Moot's vote caused the Empire to fall into chaos for 9 years.

It's very easy to underestimate Halflings, but I don't think their political power should be underplayed. They play as vital a role in Imperial society as Dwarves, arguably more actually. Food matters, and that food gives them power.
read what i wrote, not what you think i wrote. the halfings are a political part of the empire. we are not settled in the empire, most of our time right now is not spend in the empire, we do not care about the food production in the empire (the EIC might but we dont have anything to do with the day to day trading) and the elector meet is not something we really care about because we dont have a hat in on any canidate or even know whats going on there.
what we are interested in is waystones (the halflings don't really help there), magic (the halflings dont really help there), elf's (the halflings don't really help there), ranald (the halflings dont really help there), dwarfs (the karak eight peak halfings might help there but i doubt it for most of what we could want) and libraries (the halflings dont really help there).
And this is what causes resentment and political trouble between halflings and others.

It is rude. Being rude to your neighbors is stupid, if you want their help and buy in. Because bluntly, the entrance to the library doesn't face a dwarven Karak- it faces a halfling village inside that Karak.

how are we being rude if we don't take up their angelology records with out asking?
 
read what i wrote, not what you think i wrote. the halfings are a political part of the empire. we are not settled in the empire, most of our time right now is not spend in the empire, we do not care about the food production in the empire (the EIC might but we dont have anything to do with the day to day trading) and the elector meet is not something we really care about because we dont have a hat in on any canidate or even know whats going on there.
what we are interested in is waystones (the halflings don't really help there), magic (the halflings dont really help there), elf's (the halflings don't really help there), ranald (the halflings dont really help there), dwarfs (the karak eight peak halfings might help there but i doubt it for most of what we could want) and libraries (the halflings dont really help there).
They are in charge of food production of K8P, which we do care about because it's our home. We don't live in Laurelorn, it's just the place we work in.
 
They are in charge of food production of K8P, which we do care about because it's our home. We don't live in Laurelorn, it's just the place we work in.
... yes we live in karak eight peaks and if the halflings ever get the grand idea of threatening the food security of the dwarfs they wont for long... i dont see the sense behind this. yes halflings do marvellous things! are hardy and ingenious but for our goals and requirements their unimportant. if we were the loremaster (even then the steward would be the correct person to deal with this) of karak eight peaks still or some sort of regent of a region or anything like that i would absolutely agree with you.

but we are a wizard. we only care when they actively start making trouble or a bit before that to when we see the signs for trouble. but they don't so we don't.
 
... yes we live in karak eight peaks and if the halflings ever get the grand idea of threatening the food security of the dwarfs they wont for long... i dont see the sense behind this. yes halflings do marvellous things! are hardy and ingenious but for our goals and requirements their unimportant. if we were the loremaster (even then the steward would be the correct person to deal with this) of karak eight peaks still or some sort of regent of a region or anything like that i would absolutely agree with you.

but we are a wizard. we only care when they actively start making trouble or a bit before that to when we see the signs for trouble. but they don't so we don't.
The idea that you should only support people if you want their help with something or if you don't want them to cause trouble is baffling to me. The Halflings have been an integral part of K8P's retaking and current occupation and they are just as important as all the other citizens, but they've been getting some of the least appreciation compared to the big stuff that the Undumgi get or the lost hold that the Dwarves get. Making them feel like they belong by recording their histories just strikes me as a neat thing to do that I think would boost the morale of the Halflings of K8P and it would make for a good story too. It is a fantastic story beat imo, to be able to appreciate them in that way.

Now, I disagree that we should do them before Verena, but I also very much disagree on "Mathilde should only care about people that cause trouble or will start trouble or who have direct benefit to her now". That is not a pleasant road to go on.
 
I don't see the point of arguing over which organization we're trying to get books from this turn, since we're probably going to do the runner-up next turn anyway.

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
[X] Plan Compromise

I'd rather use a different face of the Coin, but it should still be interesting to see Night Prowler in use again.

On that note... the Deceiver face for the Laying the Foundations action. Good idea, or terrible idea?
 
and how tf would they know we worship ranald? only really close friends know this of mathy and not even all of those know...
Them finding out that Mathilde is a ranaldite is far from impossible, we've seen it happen before with Ljiljana.

A decent researcher - one who visited Wurtbad, where Mathilde lived and worked for years, and asked about her - would find out from the watch.

A blessed priest - one who can channel the power of their god - could notice the Ranaldite energy that Mathilde wears around her neck.
 
Every member of the Undumgi who gambled in Karag Nar know that Mathilde is a Ranaldite. It wasn't subtle when she crossed her fingers in front of a whole crowd and winked at them before starting a gambling ring, and later making a Casino with the statue of a cat by the side.

Verenans don't automatically freak out at the sight of Ranaldites, but it's not exactly hard to find out if you immerse yourself in Karak Nar.
 
The idea that you should only support people if you want their help with something or if you don't want them to cause trouble is baffling to me. The Halflings have been an integral part of K8P's retaking and current occupation and they are just as important as all the other citizens, but they've been getting some of the least appreciation compared to the big stuff that the Undumgi get or the lost hold that the Dwarves get. Making them feel like they belong by recording their histories just strikes me as a neat thing to do that I think would boost the morale of the Halflings of K8P and it would make for a good story too. It is a fantastic story beat imo, to be able to appreciate them in that way.

Now, I disagree that we should do them before Verena, but I also very much disagree on "Mathilde should only care about people that cause trouble or will start trouble or who have direct benefit to her now". That is not a pleasant road to go on.
I never said to not do them, it's a small enough thing that I don't really care about it (though getting some publishing contracts with more applicable knowledge might be nicer) but this quest runs on ap and is therefore limited by what we can do. So when people started with "but the halflings are Soo important to us" I disagreed and I disagreed loudly. We haven't talked to any halflings in ages ( at least ones of importance) or actually interacted with them except through pan at points. And the Halflings will also not bring any applicable help to our goals and missions.
Therefore their unimportant to the current situation of the quest. Can that change? Absolutely, maybe it turns out that there is a hobbit who's writing a "how to repair your waystone: DiY edition" right now, but the story has not given any implication of this...
 
What ultimately convinced me of Quinsberry was how congruent it is with previous themes in DL:

Start slowly, like an avalanche.

The more success we have with the library to start, the more we can leverage that to get greater success later. Because of K8P's specific relation and history with the halflings, Mathilde is in an unusually good position to get a copy of their records, and possibly make a deal to get some future exchanges and some staffing as well.

This can then act as a selling point for future deals with other libraries, as a counterbalance to future domination by any one outside group, and as an early start on one of the libraries founding principles of having librarians of any race that swears the oaths.
 
What ultimately convinced me of Quinsberry was how congruent it is with previous themes in DL:

Start slowly, like an avalanche.

The more success we have with the library to start, the more we can leverage that to get greater success later. Because of K8P's specific relation and history with the halflings, Mathilde is in an unusually good position to get a copy of their records, and possibly make a deal to get some future exchanges and some staffing as well.

This can then act as a selling point for future deals with other libraries, as a counterbalance to future domination by any one outside group, and as an early start on one of the libraries founding principles of having librarians of any race that swears the oaths.
And that's an actual good reason for this. I might disagree with parts of it (mostly that the Halfling have interesting books that we might want later) but it takes the current situation in mind and has a plan that could help the library grow and a goal for halflings in mind for staffing.

What it didn't do is promise some huge political favors that we get from somewhere for something. (yes, that was how vague it was)
 
For people worried about conflict between Verenans and Ranaldians, I would like to remind you all that whilst the Goddess of Law and the God of Stealing are rivals, the Goddess of Justice and the God of Revolutions are firm allies.
 
For people worried about conflict between Verenans and Ranaldians, I would like to remind you all that whilst the Goddess of Law and the God of Stealing are rivals, the Goddess of Justice and the God of Revolutions are firm allies.
True, the wiki does state that Verena mostly dislikes thieves using "being a ranaldite" as an excuse for stealing. And the general conflict of the god of thieves and the goddess of justice. But when was the last time we actually stole something just for the sake of worshipping ranald (or generally when did we last steal anything?)
 
This might be relevant:

"Verenans also uphold the sanctity of justice. They do not believe in the letter of the law, as that suggests that the words and ideals of one Man are greater than another, but do believe in the spirit of the law. Justice is blind, and so too all Verenans must be above prejudice and friendship, judging a case on the facts and evidence alone. In the eyes of the Cult of Verena, justice must be seen to be done, and to many the process is more important than the outcome. Verenans oppose tyranny and oppression, as well as injustice." Page 73 Tome of Salvation

This particular aspect of Verena meshes very well with Ranald the Protector.
 
The idea that you should only support people if you want their help with something or if you don't want them to cause trouble is baffling to me. The Halflings have been an integral part of K8P's retaking and current occupation and they are just as important as all the other citizens, but they've been getting some of the least appreciation compared to the big stuff that the Undumgi get or the lost hold that the Dwarves get. Making them feel like they belong by recording their histories just strikes me as a neat thing to do that I think would boost the morale of the Halflings of K8P and it would make for a good story too. It is a fantastic story beat imo, to be able to appreciate them in that way.

Now, I disagree that we should do them before Verena, but I also very much disagree on "Mathilde should only care about people that cause trouble or will start trouble or who have direct benefit to her now". That is not a pleasant road to go on.

That's not what is being said though.

What is being said is we have limited action space so we should take actions with the most bang for buck, and the largest impact. The Quinsberry cult frankly has nothing we need right now and wont have a big impact in the short term. So it can wait, it has nothing to do with what the Halfings do or don't bring to the table.

Also the Halflings probably don't overly care about the library any way.

What ultimately convinced me of Quinsberry was how congruent it is with previous themes in DL:

Start slowly, like an avalanche.

I mean, I get where your logic is coming from and in other framings I might have agreed but if we're going on themeing I can't agree, things in DL haven't started slow they've absolutely been avalanches but more in the sense of sudden shifting in events leading to massive sea changes over night, that hasn't been remotely slow.

Every member of the Undumgi who gambled in Karag Nar know that Mathilde is a Ranaldite. It wasn't subtle when she crossed her fingers in front of a whole crowd and winked at them before starting a gambling ring, and later making a Casino with the statue of a cat by the side.

Verenans don't automatically freak out at the sight of Ranaldites, but it's not exactly hard to find out if you immerse yourself in Karak Nar.

Yea I don't think it matters to much, gods are multi faceted and so is Verena Mathilde being a known Ranaldite could in theory be a problem but there are ways to spin it so it's not. That said I don't think any one could actually easily put two and two together, the big ranaldian ceremony also involved every one getting practically black out drunk.
 
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This might be relevant:

"Verenans also uphold the sanctity of justice. They do not believe in the letter of the law, as that suggests that the words and ideals of one Man are greater than another, but do believe in the spirit of the law. Justice is blind, and so too all Verenans must be above prejudice and friendship, judging a case on the facts and evidence alone. In the eyes of the Cult of Verena, justice must be seen to be done, and to many the process is more important than the outcome. Verenans oppose tyranny and oppression, as well as injustice." Page 73 Tome of Salvation

This particular aspect of Verena meshes very well with Ranald the Protector.
It also should mean we get a fair try even if they know we are ranaldian. I like the Verenans better and better.
 
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