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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ReImagined said:
Plus, the canal would help this trade too, I think. I'm not clear on the geography, but I'm pretty sure it would expedite the forging of that link.
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Absolutely. We already have a river route to Barak Varr via Ulrikadrin. Once the canal is done, Barak Varr has a direct connection to the Empire's waterways, and since the Empire is so interconnected via its major rivers, that's the golden ticket. Plus Barak Varr is on the coast, so that's international sea trade made possible as well (which is why Marienburg is losing their shit).
 
picklepikkl said:
Absolutely. We already have a river route to Barak Varr via Ulrikadrin. Once the canal is done, Barak Varr has a direct connection to the Empire's waterways, and since the Empire is so interconnected via its major rivers, that's the golden ticket. Plus Barak Varr is on the coast, so that's international sea trade made possible as well (which is why Marienburg is losing their shit).
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It'll also connect Zufbar directly to the rivers, which should certainly help them.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
but they are about to control the trade route going into the badlands that the ogres caravans will be travelling through.
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The ogres are in the mountains of mourn on the other side of the badlands, I believe. The main threat in the blasted wastes are the Dawi Zharr.

...Wait, nevermind, the badlands are to the South, not East. Who's down there to trade with, aside from Karak Azul?
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The ogres are in the mountains of mourn on the other side of the badlands, I believe. The main threat in the blasted wastes are the Dawi Zharr.

...Wait, nevermind, the badlands are to the South, not East. Who's down there to trade with, aside from Karak Azul?
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South of the badlands is a nasty swamp. South of that swamp is the tomb kings. West of the Tomb Kings is Araby, south of the tomb kings is DARKEST AFRICA (knockoff). Featuring lizardmen and possibly lost dwarf holds.

IIRC.
 
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
[X] No, but they would fight beside you

No, really, Seriously Fuck Marienburg. The place has made itself a problem for the last time.

If they want to stay independent, let them, but their monopoly needs to be broken. They've been all but an active asset for the forces of Chaos for decades by this point. Route trade around them, and let them wither on the vine. If Ulthuan wants to stick their noses in, I'm sure the dwarves will be happy to scratch out some grudges from the War of the Beard. Bad comes to worse, the threat of Dwarven intervention might convince the Elves that this isn't a good fight to pick.
 
Aranfan said:
South of the badlands is a nasty swamp. South of that swamp is the tomb kings. West of the Tomb Kings is Araby, south of the tomb kings is DARKEST AFRICA (knockoff). Featuring lizardmen and possibly lost dwarf holds.

IIRC.
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Right, I forgot you could feasibly get to Araby down that way. Though that's accessible by sea, so you never would unless you were insane, or an orc.
 
Jrin said:
Why is most people is so anti Marienburg? Is it pro Empire bias?
I find it quite off-putting.
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So if I was applying my personal morality (which is somewhere between AnCap + basic sanity to libertarian), I would be wildly against screwing over Marienburg (it's the place that most lives up to my ideals, though not very well). But!
1) This is a game. This isn't real. Even if our character goes off and does something awful, we (the players) haven't done anything immoral.
2) This is a game, the purpose of which is to have fun with the great writing of BoneyM and ability to influence the writing through voting. Just enjoy the ride and don't get so invested that Mathilde doing something you don't like hurts your feelings.
3) This is not my actions, but the character's actions. It would be quite boring for me to always play characters constantly talking about libertarian ideals all the time, so when I RP, I play a variety of characters with different beliefs, some of which are wildly different from my morality. In this case, our character is a) a loyal member of the Empire and so dislikes the traitor Marienburgers, b) dislikes the fake college Marienburg set up, and c) is seeing plans that benefit her getting screwed over by Marienburg. Of course she wants to screw them over.
4) Injecting modern moral systems onto Warhammer is inherently flawed. I mean, total religious tolerance is just a bad idea in Warhammer for just one example.
 
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Vote Tally
: Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy | Page 5527 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 138176-139062]
##### NetTally 3.1.0

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
No. of Votes: 99
[X] TalonofAnathrax
[X] 13th Fleet
[X] Abhorsen
[X] Achilles861
[X] Acolyte
[X] agumentic
[X] Akasha
[X] Andmeuths
[X] Andres110
[X] Angelform
[X] Armok
[X] ArvisPresley
[X] Ashmaker
[X] Astro Ambulance
[X] Avoozl
[X] Briefvoice
[X] cheesyme
[X] Chiperninerm
[X] ConfusedCanuck
[X] dacsan
[x] Damian45
[X] DarknessSmiles
[X] Deathbybunnies
[X] Deathwings
[X] Delwgun
[X] DrachenEngel
[X] DragonParadox
[X] Drucchi
[X] DXCS
[X] Elwyn
[X] Erehwon
[X] EVA-Saiyajin
[X] fictionfan
[X] Glau
[X] Guisarme
[X] HanEmpire
[X] HavocKeeper
[X] HebrideanStarfis
[X] HidCyan
[X] Horium
[X] Hyborem
[X] incama
[X] Inferno67
[X] In_lurk_shadow
[X] Ithuriel
[X] Jyn Ryvia
[X] kfrar
[X] Kornet
[X] Legionman
[X] LeMat
[X] Loket
[X] LonelyWolf999
[X] LordEdric
[X] Lost Egos
[X] Luminous
[X] MacroDaemon
[X] me.me.here
[X] minorred
[x] MiracleGrow
[X] mmgaballah
[X] MonkeyTypewriter
[X] MooseHowl
[X] nat_401
[X] Negation
[X] Night_stalker
[X] ninjafish
[X] Not A Pipe
[X] Nurgle
[X] Oshha
[X] Parzival95
[X] Ptolemy
[X] pucflek
[X] Rafin
[X] Redshirt Army
[X] reignonyrparade
[X] ReImagined
[X] Retrueno
[X] Robotninja
[X] Rui
[x] silentorphan
[X] Sir Bidoof
[X] Sir_Travelsalot
[x] Skyborn.12
[X] Spartan492
[X] Speaker4thesilen
[X] spiritualatheist
[X] storryeater
[X] strauss
[X] tapkomet
[X] Tasoli
[X] Tealg
[X] Thebigpieman
[X] TheWoo
[X] Thomasfoolery
[X] TotallyNotEvil
[X] Trickster314
[X] UniqueName
[X] Wing101
[X] Zero Gravitas

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
No. of Votes: 68
[X] das_slash
[X] Abby Normal
[X] Aranfan
[X] Asheram
[X] Axel Fones
[X] AzuraNyx
[X] Bear Templar
[X] BeepSmile
[X] BelligerentGnu
[X] Blackshard
[X] Bothan
[X] buli-buli
[X] BurnNote
[X] Candesce
[X] Chimeraguard
[X] chocolote12
[X] CtrlAltSuppr
[X] ctulhuslp
[X] Derpmind
[X] DiceOfStupidity
[X] Doctor Elsewhere
[X] Eldon
[X] Fanhunter696
[X] Ganurath
[X] Garlak
[X] Gingganz
[X] HanEmpire
[X] Hex123
[X] Historyman14
[X] Horologer
[X] Humbaba
[X] Hydroplatypus
[X] ichypa
[X] Kliden
[X] knight_enemy
[X] LotusPocus
[X] Lupercal
[X] Mopman43
[X] Mortenkam
[X] Neptune
[X] nexuseye
[X] Nickan
[X] No7sHere
[X] NuclearConsensus
[X] NukeDaSun
[X] Omegahugger
[X] Ordis
[X] Pempelune
[X] picklepikkl
[X] Prospalz
[X] PurposefulZephyr
[X] QuarkBeast
[X] Rakuhn
[X] Saidoro
[X] Shard
[X] Shinji117
[X] SuperSonicSound
[X] TaliesinSkye
[X] The Dave
[X] thisisinsane
[X] TimEd
[X] Travler66
[X] tryingtobewitty
[X] Varano
[X] Vebyast
[X] Weird Guy
[X] Zedman7054
[X] zxzx24

[X] No, but they would fight beside you
No. of Votes: 5
[X] TalonofAnathrax
[X] LonelyWolf999
[X] Luminous
[X] Speaker4thesilen
[X] Uhtread

[X] I don't know
No. of Votes: 2
[X] maximorph
[X] In_lurk_shadow

[X] No, they cannot be dissuaded
No. of Votes: 1
[X] In_lurk_shadow

[X] Write in: I see two possibilities, either we convince them to make up the trade or they break the blockade. It could swing either way, and which way is best depends on how Ulthum will react, which I don't know. Tell me which you prefer and I will try to swing it that way.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] thisisinsane


Total No. of Voters: 168
 
Too busy to catch up in full, so analysis, vote, then amble up the thread in my spare time:

[ ] The High King could make it so
Karaz A Karak - This is sensible, the Karaz Ankor is stabilizing, don't rock the boat.
Karak Eight Peaks - This is Thorgrim shutting down other holds successes again.
Holds along the canal - You're telling dwarves, to stop a major investment, which has already started earthmoving. Thorgrim is either going to need to pay out the nose or lean on their oaths to the High King.
Empire - Oh good, no need to be inconvenienced.
EIC - Had just spent the last few years pivoting to take advantage of it. Terrible losses expected.
Marienburg - Victory!


[ ] For sufficient concessions
As above, but Thorgrim could bribe the Holds into line instead of forcing them, except Belegar would get even more sour over it.

[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
Karaz A Karak - Has to pay for the actions of their nominal vassals. May be somewhat grumpy, but the Karaz Ankor does not lack for material wealth.
Karak Eight Peaks - Has to pay for the actions of our allies. Fortunately money is one thing Karak Eight Peaks has no lack of.
Holds along the canal - If your project causes unintended harm to your allies then you pay compensation. Perfectly reasonable.
Empire - Things will be shaky for a few years, but not dangerous.
EIC - Makes mad bank enabling the new trade along routes they've already seized control of.
Marienburg - Worst case scenario. Ulthuan will not back them in an offensive war, a trade embargo will spur their internal unrest(remember, trade embargoes are operated by the merchants making money off them), and if they go assault Ironclads on their own Ulthuan will shrug and let them die.

[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Karaz A Karak - May not actually be involved.
Karak Eight Peaks - Remember those dumbasses running banditry around the area. Yeah, this is just more bandit busting. Sensible.
Holds along the canal - Somebody is attacking an ally for something we did? Grab my ironclads!
Empire - If it works, great, if it doesn't work we've got a shitshow.
EIC - Not really affected
Marienburg - They can try to call in Ulthuan, it may or may not work. It'd definitely give their ruling council a lot more popular support, nothing like a war to inspire people to double down on their decisions.

[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
Karaz A Karak - The oaths of alliance with Sigmar's alliance involve defensive wars. There is no actual obligation to suicide pact into Imperial bad decisions. Assaulting Marienburg over miles of bad terrain is expensive in blood and money. Pass.
Karak Eight Peaks - Marienburg's been annoying Eight Peaks a little over the canal sabotage. This would be a cointoss, I can't say which way Belegar would jump, because reclaiming Marienburg might or might not push the right buttons.
Holds along the canal - Marienburg's already been attacking them, punching back is nice
Empire - RECONQUISTA! WAAAGH!
EIC - War is briefly good for business, then very bad for business.
Marienburg - They can almost certainly call in Ulthuan assistance for this. See who blinks first in the game of chicken.

[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
[ ] I don't know
Empire - The Empire wouldn't just accept "deal with it". They'd do something else unexpected when strategic goods dry up.


[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

Play the game of hearts and minds. Marienburg's embargo is fundamentally a bluff, far too many of their own merchants rely upon the imperial trade, and they'd be taking massive losses on a monthly basis, coming to a head in a half year period as reserves run out, goods start to spoil and the smaller traders will be looking at opportunities to rise with the change in the trade winds.

If we do this option then Marienburg's options are:
-Hope the Empire or the Karaz Ankor gets entangled into some war or another before their domestic pressures grow too great.
--They can help this along with their agents trying to spark civil war, but if caught...well you know whats the fastest way to solve the Nordland/Middenland spat? Have proof a third party was egging them on to their mutual detriment.

-Find alternative trade partners...in a region where more than half their biggest trade partners are Imperial or Karaz Ankor.

-Assault the Canal directly or indirectly.
-Assault the Empire directly or indirectly.

The Karaz Ankor can't afford lives, but gold, and goods? They have those aplenty.
(It'd also be really hilarious if Marienburg embargoes the oceanic silk trade just in time for Karak Eight Peaks to launch a new line of silk products)
 
veekie said:
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
Karaz A Karak - Has to pay for the actions of their nominal vassals. May be somewhat grumpy, but the Karaz Ankor does not lack for material wealth.
Karak Eight Peaks - Has to pay for the actions of our allies. Fortunately money is one thing Karak Eight Peaks has no lack of.
Holds along the canal - If your project causes unintended harm to your allies then you pay compensation. Perfectly reasonable.
Empire - Things will be shaky for a few years, but not dangerous.
EIC - Makes mad bank enabling the new trade along routes they've already seized control of.
Marienburg - Worst case scenario. Ulthuan will not back them in an offensive war, a trade embargo will spur their internal unrest(remember, trade embargoes are operated by the merchants making money off them), and if they go assault Ironclads on their own Ulthuan will shrug and let them die.
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The issue is one of Logistics, not chests of gold. It will significantly weaken both the Empire and the Dawi, because its fundamentally not possible to ship everything the Empire gets from foreign trade over land. Keep in mind this is pre-railway, so water transport is 10-30x cheaper per mile than over land.
 
veekie said:
The Karaz Ankor can't afford lives, but gold, and goods? They have those aplenty.
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Except securing all the land routes to send the gold and the goods through will cost lives. More lives than the crew of any 5 dreadnoughts.

We're talking about a small army of dwarves strewn across various roads, which are in no way safe for such volumes of cargo, and trying to stop every opportunist under the sun from seizing the stuff.
 
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veekie said:
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
Karaz A Karak - Has to pay for the actions of their nominal vassals. May be somewhat grumpy, but the Karaz Ankor does not lack for material wealth.
Karak Eight Peaks - Has to pay for the actions of our allies. Fortunately money is one thing Karak Eight Peaks has no lack of.
Holds along the canal - If your project causes unintended harm to your allies then you pay compensation. Perfectly reasonable.
Empire - Things will be shaky for a few years, but not dangerous.
EIC - Makes mad bank enabling the new trade along routes they've already seized control of.
Marienburg - Worst case scenario. Ulthuan will not back them in an offensive war, a trade embargo will spur their internal unrest(remember, trade embargoes are operated by the merchants making money off them), and if they go assault Ironclads on their own Ulthuan will shrug and let them die.
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I apologise for saying that, when the rest of your analysis is spot on, but as the thread discussion has figured about 10-20 pages ago, loss of overseas trade for 5 years will be paid in blood, not money, due to the way economic upheaval will harm the various wars of the empire and the difficulty and lethality of creating land trade routes across the badlands.

This gets exacerbated by WOG that one of the imports of Marienburg is weapons, which the empire may need if the next 5 years aren't peaceful enough. Dwarves may have better weapons, but can they produce as many as fast? (technically they certainly can, but their pride may forbid them to, so semantics). Even if they can, can their trade routes supply them fast enough when they can easily be stolen by orcs or beastmen? Can they afford the patrolling and all the dead dwarfs? Even if everything goes perfectly, the economic losses will still weaken both nations enough for chaos and greenskin to harm them more.
 
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[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.

No, i am not going to ask the dwarves to payup for Marienburg throwing a hissy fit.
 
The Bretonnians aren't likely to go for it as their close enough to the Empire to have enough of a sense of rivalry with them that if the Empire asks them to stop trading with someone it's valuable for them to trade with ... you don't let a rival push you around and stop you from doing things that are good for you, and they aren't close to the Dawi at all so the Dawi can't agree.

Araby has basically had only negative contact with the Empire, and basically no contact with the Dawi, so we can't stop them.

Tilea and Estalia though .... they don't really care enough about the Empire to want to say no because of rivalry, and they have decent enough relations with the Dawi that they might be willing to at least bluff Marienburg with an Embargo if the Dawi ask? Maybe? If we can convince Marienburg that embargoing the Empire will lose them all trade with Tilea, Estalia, and the Dawi as well ... Bretonnia, Araby, and Ulthuan might not be enough business for them to be able to call that bluff?
 
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