Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Mkay, this is the "Absolutely Everything I Want" version, which... Is so humongous that I'm really only posting it for people to think about. Presumably, it'll have to be pared down and/or broken up with parts being done later.

But, it responds to I think most of the issues that have been raised, and I'll be honest, I like it a lot better than the previous version.

I'ma go work for like 5-6h. We'll see what things look like after.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
[X] Mami
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: Did that go better than the last time she spoke with Kyouko? How does she think it went differently? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[X] So, here's the deal: you desperately need help doing this sort of thing, primarily for Kyouko and Homura, but also for Sayaka and Madoka, and others, too. She literally just did more for Kyouko in one conversation than you'd managed the entire time, and what she did for Kyouko here Mattered, capital M. If she has trouble with parts of this, you'll work through it together. If there's a problem, the two of you will figure it out. If either of you have questions, you should do your best to answer them for each other.
-----[X] And... You're going to be really blunt about this: the more she knows about someone, the more she can help them. Homura and Kyouko are in *deep need* of help. You are *not* cutting it alone. Both of them have made it pretty well clear that they trust her. If she were to actively involve herself in this... It would Help. If she missteps you'll cover for her, and you wouldn't be misstepping without anyone to cover for you, anymore.
//Arguably, primarily for Homura. Mami could accomplish so, so much tagteaming her with us.
------[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Then, just outright *say* that Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred.
 
Well, I like that a lot more than the earlier version. Talking vaguely about the need to learn social didn't seem like it was going to do anything positive for Mami. The more solid actionable steps and the admission of our own failures in that area look much more likely to move things in the correct direction.

It might be useful as a kind of shorthand to make it clear just how much we're cheating with social with the people we have metaknowledge of, and how much harder we find the whole thing with people we lack it for. Objectively, Homura should not be easier to deal with than Ono, and I suspect that oddities like that are probably giving Mami mixed signals about how our social process is working.

As a protovote for part of that:

[] People are complicated, and figuring out what's going on in their lives and in their heads is a lot harder than people make it look.
-[] People hide things that would make it easier to help them. Sometimes because they assume you already know, sometimes because they think it's something they need to deal with alone, sometimes because they've got something in their head that makes them feel like they need to be punished.
--[] That moment when Mami worked out Kyoko was doing this was inspiring.
--[] We're cheating. The metaknowledge we woke up with gives us a lot of the tools to try and make things better for the people covered by it. Even with that head start, it feels like the hardest thing we ever do.
---[] When we don't have that cheat, we struggle and mess up a lot more, like with Ono, like with Akiko.
---[] When we set up this meeting with Kyoko, she agreed that Mami would get the details. You can understand why she couldn't bring herself to talk openly about what was really hurting her, though.
----[] Explain the details of Kyoko's backstory.

Probably needs refinement, and for the moment I'm going to throw what weight I've got behind this one.

[X] Kaizuki
 
Kaizuki said:
I'll note also: I don't read Mami as even remotely autistic. She's entirely too social and entirely too perceptive of what's going on in a social setting -- she recognized that what Kyouko was saying wasn't right, the last couple chapters, and she's simply reading Kyouko too well at the end of last chapter -- her comment about Kyouko coming by is, that's Mami reading the hell out of Kyouko. Fuck, I couldn't read Kyouko that well if I sat here for a month and analyzed the shit out of everything Kyouko has ever done or said. Not a damn chance.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah. It's much more "this description you've written sounds that way" than "everything about Mami in general throughout this quest sounds that way"

Kaizuki said:
Mkay, this is the "Absolutely Everything I Want" version, which... Is so humongous that I'm really only posting it for people to think about. Presumably, it'll have to be pared down and/or broken up with parts being done later.

But, it responds to I think most of the issues that have been raised, and I'll be honest, I like it a lot better than the previous version.

I'ma go work for like 5-6h. We'll see what things look like after.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
[X] Mami
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: Did that go better than the last time she spoke with Kyouko? How does she think it went differently? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[X] So, here's the deal: you desperately need help doing this sort of thing, primarily for Kyouko and Homura, but also for Sayaka and Madoka, and others, too. She literally just did more for Kyouko in one conversation than you'd managed the entire time, and what she did for Kyouko here Mattered, capital M. If she has trouble with parts of this, you'll work through it together. If there's a problem, the two of you will figure it out. If either of you have questions, you should do your best to answer them for each other.
-----[X] And... You're going to be really blunt about this: the more she knows about someone, the more she can help them. Homura and Kyouko are in *deep need* of help. You are *not* cutting it alone. Both of them have made it pretty well clear that they trust her. If she were to actively involve herself in this... It would Help. If she missteps you'll cover for her, and you wouldn't be misstepping without anyone to cover for you, anymore.
//Arguably, primarily for Homura. Mami could accomplish so, so much tagteaming her with us.
------[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Then, just outright *say* that Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Definitely an improvement. Definitely pruneable, the size can be reduced without losing the meaning or the tone, I think.

Nerevar said:
Well, I like that a lot more than the earlier version. Talking vaguely about the need to learn social didn't seem like it was going to do anything positive for Mami. The more solid actionable steps and the admission of our own failures in that area look much more likely to move things in the correct direction.

It might be useful as a kind of shorthand to make it clear just how much we're cheating with social with the people we have metaknowledge of, and how much harder we find the whole thing with people we lack it for. Objectively, Homura should not be easier to deal with than Ono, and I suspect that oddities like that are probably giving Mami mixed signals about how our social process is working.

As a protovote for part of that:

[] People are complicated, and figuring out what's going on in their lives and in their heads is a lot harder than people make it look.
-[] People hide things that would make it easier to help them. Sometimes because they assume you already know, sometimes because they think it's something they need to deal with alone, sometimes because they've got something in their head that makes them feel like they need to be punished.
--[] That moment when Mami worked out Kyoko was doing this was inspiring.
--[] We're cheating. The metaknowledge we woke up with gives us a lot of the tools to try and make things better for the people covered by it. Even with that head start, it feels like the hardest thing we ever do.
---[] When we don't have that cheat, we struggle and mess up a lot more, like with Ono, like with Akiko.
---[] When we set up this meeting with Kyoko, she agreed that Mami would get the details. You can understand why she couldn't bring herself to talk openly about what was really hurting her, though.
----[] Explain the details of Kyoko's backstory.

Probably needs refinement, and for the moment I'm going to throw what weight I've got behind this one.

[X] Kaizuki
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What about this composite? Red/greening where I'm rephrasing; orange for things spliced in from @Nerevar. Wordcount is still an issue here, right? I haven't missed a change to that rule? Usually pretty distant on the votecrafting. Trying to reduce wordcount where it won't change meaning or tone.

[] Sayaka:
-[] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really the rest of you aren't good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
[] Mami
-[] Ask as serious, actual questions: Did that go better than the last time she spoke with Kyouko? How does she think it went differently? And why does she think it went differently?
--[] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way how to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art it's more a science than an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving refusing Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[] So, here's the deal: yYou desperately need help doing this sort of thing, primarily for Kyouko and Homura, but also for Sayaka and Madoka, and others, too. She literally just did more for Kyouko in one conversation than you'd managed the entire time, and what she did for Kyouko here Mattered, capital M. If she one of us has trouble with parts of this, you'll both work through it together. If there's a problem, the two of you will figure it out. If either of you have questions, you should do your best to answer them for each other.
-----[] And... You're going to be really blunt about this: the more she knows about someone, the more she can help them. Homura and Kyouko are in *deep need* of help. You are *not* cutting it alone. Both of them have made it pretty well clear that they trust her. If she were to actively involve herself in this... It would Help. If she missteps you'll cover for her, and you wouldn't be misstepping without anyone to cover for you, anymore.
//Arguably, primarily for Homura. Mami could accomplish so, so much tagteaming her with us.
------[] We're cheating. The metaknowledge we woke up with gives us a lot of the tools to try and make things better for the people covered by it. Even with that head start, it feels like the hardest thing we ever do. When we don't have that cheat, we struggle and mess up a lot more, like with Ono, like with or Akiko.
------[] When we set up this meeting with Kyoko, she agreed that Mami would get the details. You can understand why she couldn't bring herself to talk openly about what was really hurting her, though.
-------[] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Highlight her self-hatred and mMake it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Then, just outright *say* that Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship, since. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred.
 
Can I raise a dissenting vote and say that I don't think we need to be remotely this detailed.

-[] Ask as serious, actual questions: Did that go better than the last time she spoke with Kyouko? How does she think it went differently? And why does she think it went differently?
--[] After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[] Talk about what she did different and why it worked.

I think that's plenty. Maybe another line stating that we explain Kyouko's backstory to Mami. Really, we don't need to be this detailed. Let the QM have some leeway to write the quest.

In fact, I think one of Sabrina's big problems is that she spends too much time talking and not enough listening. Ask some questions, let Mami lead the discussion once we kickstart it, and I think we will get a much better result.

Also, I again point out that we have an operating Incubator unit right next to us. We should probably do something about that before we start detailed discussions about Mami's personal hangups?
 
@Kaizuki mentioned wanting to see his vote condensed, which I believe is my cue:

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot.
-[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!

[X] Head home with Mami:
-[X] Ask her how she's feeling, reassure her that it went well, and that she did good.
--[X] That was all her - you were just moral support, she's the one who made things right.

[X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami about social:
-[X] People are complicated, and figuring out what's going on in their lives and in their heads is hard.
--[X] People hide things. Because they think they need to deal with it alone, or because they feel like they deserve to suffer, or any number of other reasons.
-[X] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle. Mami's done it too: what she just did helped Kyouko than everything else you've done until now.
--[X] In the future, you'd love for Mami to help you. You can support each other, cover each others missteps, and help everyone around you together.

[X] Offer to tell Mami Kyouko's story, as you know it.
-[X] Kyouko agreed to share this with Mami when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her.
-[X] Emphasise Kyouko's self-blame, and how faulty and self-destructive it is.

215 words, and that's about as much as I think can reasonably be boiled away. I could feel the spirit of Ugolino haunting me as I wrote this, offering to tell me more about SOCIAL.
 
Except that doesn't really contain the main thing @Kaizuki wants to address, which is that Mami did something different to succeed, I think that's the thing he wants pointed out the most so that Mami realizes she did something different to succeed. (Nor does it address the Incubator unit sitting next to us.)

[X] Say something to Sayaka/Homura
-[X] Inform them the Incubator tried to show up in the middle of the conversation.
--[X] You stopped it from moving, and are still holding it prisoner.
--[X] What should we do with it? Let Mami decide.
[X] On the way home, let Mami control the flow of conversation. Respond with enthusiasm and praise for how things are working out, but let her lead, this is her moment.
-[X] If she asks to know Kyouko's story, tell her
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: Did that go better than the last time she spoke with Kyouko? How does she think it went differently? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] Discuss what she did different and why it worked, and let her lead the discussion.
 
Last edited:
Nerevar said:
It might be useful as a kind of shorthand to make it clear just how much we're cheating with social with the people we have metaknowledge of, and how much harder we find the whole thing with people we lack it for. Objectively, Homura should not be easier to deal with than Ono, and I suspect that oddities like that are probably giving Mami mixed signals about how our social process is working.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay so no.

There are two reasons why I wrote something about "Oh we cheat with metaknowledge" into my drafts of this and then threw it out before I posted what I did.

Number one is that we are, in fact, getting better at social and generally do better these days than we used to. You're free to brush that off because it's not the critically important reason.

The critically important reason is number two, which is that "Oh we only succeed so much because we cheat via metaknowledge" is completely fucking toxic to the central theme here, which is that Mami can learn to be better at this stuff and by doing so eventually free herself from the toxic scenarios she's been stuck in in the past. If "miracle girl" only succeeds so much by cheating, then what the heck is Mami, who can't cheat, supposed to do? It doesn't work right with the idea we're trying to convey.

Elder Haman said:
I think that's plenty. Maybe another line stating that we explain Kyouko's backstory to Mami. Really, we don't need to be this detailed. Let the QM have some leeway to write the quest.

In fact, I think one of Sabrina's big problems is that she spends too much time talking and not enough listening. Ask some questions, let Mami lead the discussion once we kickstart it, and I think we will get a much better result.

Also, I again point out that we have an operating Incubator unit right next to us. We should probably do something about that before we start detailed discussions about Mami's personal hangups?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Wut. I was under the impression it was, uh, inoperative. Deadish. Trapped in a grief sphere.

...

WAS IT ALL A QB PLOT!?!? QUICK GET THE PISTOL WE NEED TO SHOOT IT AAAAAAAAAAA

Redshirt Army said:
@Kaizuki mentioned wanting to see his vote condensed, which I believe is my cue:

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot.
-[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!

[X] Head home with Mami:
-[X] Ask her how she's feeling, reassure her that it went well, and that she did good.
--[X] That was all her - you were just moral support, she's the one who made things right.

[X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami about social:
-[X] People are complicated, and figuring out what's going on in their lives and in their heads is hard.
--[X] People hide things. Because they think they need to deal with it alone, or because they feel like they deserve to suffer, or any number of other reasons.
-[X] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle. Mami's done it too: what she just did helped Kyouko than everything else you've done until now.
--[X] In the future, you'd love for Mami to help you. You can support each other, cover each others missteps, and help everyone around you together.

[X] Offer to tell Mami Kyouko's story, as you know it.
-[X] Kyouko agreed to share this with Mami when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her.
-[X] Emphasise Kyouko's self-blame, and how faulty and self-destructive it is.

215 words, and that's about as much as I think can reasonably be boiled away. I could feel the spirit of Ugolino haunting me as I wrote this, offering to tell me more about SOCIAL.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This has some hits and some misses. The "If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong" addition to Sayaka was added for people who wanted that, so I'm obligated to say we need to keep that on behalf of their votes.

This: -[] People are complicated, and figuring out what's going on in their lives and in their heads is hard.

Should be thrown out and replaced to
-[] Ask as serious, actual questions: Did that go better than the last time she spoke with Kyouko? How does she think it went differently? And why does she think it went differently?

in the interest of keeping this as a dialogue and not as a lecture.

I typically agree that the central portion of my vote can be cut down a lot and you've done a pretty good job of it. Anyone who's been here a while knows that I get very "BUT MUH DETAIL" about cutdowns of anything I write, but, well... no there's no but on that except MUH DETAIL Q_Q

Virtually everything south of -[] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle. Mami's done it too: what she just did helped Kyouko than everything else you've done until now. is arising from something that should be cut entirely rather than condensed. That whole section amounts to a related vote that we need to run within a couple of days of this happening, that basically goes "Mami, Homura respects and trusts you, PLEASE ACTIVELY HELP ME THERAPY HER SHE NEEDS MORE LOVE" keyed to basically just... get Mami on board helping us directly with, just, virtually everything we talk with Homura about, and especially for the occasional "No, Homu, you're a good person" conversations. So, just, toss that out for now, and I'll bring it up later, within a couple days IC, and we can run it as an actual full vote.

I'm gonna do that on my version right now >_>


[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
[X] Mami
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: Did that go better than the last time she spoke with Kyouko? How does she think it went differently? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.

... This is 370 words atm... That's really not that bad...

*scratches head*

*flops*

redshirt

i appreciate the cutdown

i am tired

i am so

tired

if firn asks or if you're free tomorrow or just something we should think about how to cut this down without... sleep...

sleep...
 
Kaizuki said:
Okay so no.

There are two reasons why I wrote something about "Oh we cheat with metaknowledge" into my drafts of this and then threw it out before I posted what I did.

Number one is that we are, in fact, getting better at social and generally do better these days than we used to. You're free to brush that off because it's not the critically important reason.

The critically important reason is number two, which is that "Oh we only succeed so much because we cheat via metaknowledge" is completely fucking toxic to the central theme here, which is that Mami can learn to be better at this stuff and by doing so eventually free herself from the toxic scenarios she's been stuck in in the past. If "miracle girl" only succeeds so much by cheating, then what the heck is Mami, who can't cheat, supposed to do? It doesn't work right with the idea we're trying to convey.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's fair. My intent was to empathize with the difficulty of trying to get people to open up the hard way, and to make it clearer that the problem isn't always on her end. But you've made a convincing argument that the focus should be more on what agency she does have.
Elder Haman said:
-[] Inform them the Incubator tried to show up in the middle of the conversation.
--[] You stopped it from moving, and are still holding it prisoner.
--[] Should you release it and let it say what it wants to say? Let Mami decide.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm less concerned about talking to Kyubey than most people here are, but letting him interrupt a moment like this is a bad decision. He came here to hurt our friends with a well timed comment and will absolutely do that if allowed the chance. Sure, the current moment isn't as sensitive as the one he wanted to pop in for, but he's very much capable of deflating the current partial victory and putting all the wrong ideas in people's heads.

Likewise, there's a difference between respecting our friends' agency and letting them decide whether or not to drink bleach. Letting them know Kyubey showed up and we intervened is perfectly reasonable and should definitely happen at some point. But asking if you should let the thing go is an implicit approval of that course of action, and it's a bad course of action.
 
Nerevar said:
Likewise, there's a difference between respecting our friends' agency and letting them decide whether or not to drink bleach. Letting them know Kyubey showed up and we intervened is perfectly reasonable and should definitely happen at some point. But asking if you should let the thing go is an implicit approval of that course of action, and it's a bad course of action.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Good point, changed it to the more neutral: "What should do about it?" rather than implying a specific course of action.
 
Nerevar said:
That's fair. My intent was to empathize with the difficulty of trying to get people to open up the hard way, and to make it clearer that the problem isn't always on her end. But you've made a convincing argument that the focus should be more on what agency she does have.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

*nods*

I don't mean any disrespect or anything -- if it came across that way it's cuz I was tired. It wasn't immediately clear to me that it was unreasonable, it took some thinking first.

Elder Haman said:
Yeah, I thought so too, until someone asked the GM who pointed out that the rings didn't disappear, which we previous IC theorized means that it's not dead, just inactive. So probably in silent recording mode?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

*scratches head*

...

I'ma be honest we can find another one of these things sometime if we have to so yeah I'm gonna agree we shouldn't just keep this thing around.

Appending a fix for that >_>

Elder Haman said:
[X] Say something to Sayaka/Homura
-[X] Inform them the Incubator tried to show up in the middle of the conversation.
--[X] You stopped it from moving, and are still holding it prisoner.
--[X] What should we do with it? Let Mami decide.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

//afl;a WWHTATAWHATWHATWHATWHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE ARGUING FOR US TO GET RID OF IT NOT TALK WITH IT

okay okay okay okay okay no listen

Involving QB in social situations of any sort whatsoever

is

we don't do that okay

just

just

that falls in the category of ideas labeled "sociohazards." Inviting the incubator to talk to people is a no. This fucking thing kills people with words. It would love the opportunity to undermine the progress we've made here so we don't give it that chance ok

[X] Incinerate the captive QB unit.
-[X] Without removing it from storage

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
[X] Mami
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.
 
Last edited:
Elder Haman said:
I'm arguing that we should do something about it, and that we should decide as a group, instead of making decisions on our own all the time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay so there is a fine line between removing people's agency and acting in a way that you know they would approve of without needing to ask.

AINT NOBODY WANTS QB.

We don't need to ask about that.
 
Kaizuki said:
*nods*

I don't mean any disrespect or anything -- if it came across that way it's cuz I was tired. It wasn't immediately clear to me that it was unreasonable, it took some thinking first.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No worries.
Kaizuki said:
//afl;a WWHTATAWHATWHATWHATWHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE ARGUING FOR US TO GET RID OF IT NOT TALK WITH IT

okay okay okay okay okay no listen

Involving QB in social situations of any sort whatsoever

is

we don't do that okay

just

just

that falls in the category of ideas labeled "sociohazards." Inviting the incubator to talk to people is a no. This fucking thing kills people with words. It would love the opportunity to undermine the progress we've made here so we don't give it that chance ok
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Agreed. If we want to talk to Kyubey, we'll do it when no one else is around that he can fuck with.

Not like this is a unique opportunity to chat with him or anything. And really, if destroying this body would in any way impair his ability to have conversations in the future, I would be voting for dropping litterally everything and doing precisely that. He is the main villain of the entire franchise, and we forget that at our dire peril.
Dantalion said:
Let's split the difference.
[JK] S'MORES OF FALLEN ANGELS
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If I was expecting a chance for privacy any time soon, I'd totally be up for it. I'm more curious than is probably healthy what the thing tastes like. But having the body with us while we're with Mami in the aftermath of her Kyoko meeting is a bad idea.
 
Last edited:
So I did a whole lot of poking and tweaking of my vote, and this is what I ended up with. I welcome any feedback.

[X] Incinerate QB.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!

[X] Head home with Mami:
-[X] Discuss the meeting with Mami - how she's feeling, and how and why it went better than their previous meeting.
--[X] People hide things. Because they think they need to deal with it alone, or because they feel like they deserve to suffer, or any number of other reasons.
--[X] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle.
---[X] Mami's done it too: tonight was all her, and what she just did helped Kyouko than everything else you've done until now. Seeing her challenge Kyouko's self-blame was... inspiring.

[X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami Kyouko's story, if she wants to hear it.
-[X] Kyouko agreed to share this with Mami when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her.
--[X] Kyouko left, ultimately, because she didn't want to drag Mami down with her - in terms of both hunting and ideals. She thought that Mami deserved better friends than her.
 
Kaizuki said:
//afl;a WWHTATAWHATWHATWHATWHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE ARGUING FOR US TO GET RID OF IT NOT TALK WITH IT

okay okay okay okay okay no listen

Involving QB in social situations of any sort whatsoever

is

we don't do that okay

just

just

that falls in the category of ideas labeled "sociohazards." Inviting the incubator to talk to people is a no. This fucking thing kills people with words. It would love the opportunity to undermine the progress we've made here so we don't give it that chance ok

[X] Incinerate the captive QB unit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@Kaizuki can I ask you to please...

Don't Panic.

It doesn't lead to good responses and it's really not a good way to explain things to a newbie. I'm disappointed in your response here.

If you're worried that Kyuubey is still watching and only playing dead instead of incapacitated it turns out we already know how to check for that: It's something we've done before, and something we've done regularly with magical girls. Consciousness and life is associated with magic, even in Kyuubey. It's incredibly faint in the latter case but it's there. If you want to save the body for examination we should, in fact, keep doing that.

And I will point out the original plan if it comes to that. Just, quite literally, throw the Kyuubey away.

[X] Check if there's any magic attached to Kyuubey right now, however slight. Then coccoon it or sabot-fling it out of the city, as appropriate.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
[X] Mami
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top