Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Yes. But thinking deeply is only halfway there. You also have to be able to communicate clearly. If you can't communicate your deep ideas then they might as well not exist.
Yes:
Article: In discussion, we expect you to be honest, clear, concise, and willing to engage with others.
There's nothing in there about intent. There is no "try". We are expected to be clear, concise, and willing to engage with others when we post our arguments.
That "TL;DR" isn't an argument. It's not even an attempt at an argument. It's exactly the same thing as before: "Read it and you'll figure it out." If I can't figure it out from reading the story quotes then I'm sure as fuck not going to get it by reading a half-assed recap of exactly the same events. It conveys nothing new, it adds no new perspective, it has no helpful reframing nor some alternative formulation nor any new evidence.
Having sort of managed to grind my way through some small parts of that mess... I don't have anything. I can't identify anything in there that I'd call a concrete reason why Mami cares about Homura. I'm not even confident in any of my guesses. Even if there was a concrete reason in there, I don't see any reason to believe that Mami would understand herself well enough to track her feelings for Homura down to anything in that sequence. I don't see any reason why Mami would have a particularly good idea of what was going on inside her head there given how much of a wreck she was back then. If I can't understand it given the events and no other context, I don't see any reason to believe that Mami would be able to figure it out either. If I can't understand it given the events and no other context, I don't see any reason to believe that Homura would be able to figure it out either.
edit:
I'm going to be clear and blunt, because I am wiped out and I have no budget left for this. I feel like I have been doing all of the work in getting your ideas out of your head. It is tedious, exhausting, and frustrating. I feel like I have to prompt you for everything and ask leading questions and hope that I am lucky enough to say something that sparks a response that I can use. It feels like I'm trying to pull my own teeth.
As for advice on what to do: Talk to a doctor. Get a therapist. Talk to a counselor. Get a life coach. Talk about all of this to your parents or your roommate or a teacher or professor or coworker that you know well. Go in to the student health center or your office's HR department and ask them to help you get on the phone with a therapist so you stop getting roadblocked by stupid stuff. Get help. It's what I did and it's probably why I'm still here.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Well... I don't know what to tell you. The summary helped make sense of it for me.
It's an avenue worth pursuing at the very least.
That said, I feel like both you and Kaizuki might want to sleep on this and come back fresh, because this looks and sounds to me as though you're in fundamentally different places in your approach to this problem.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Can you explain it? Please?
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
From my view of it at least? Mami changed quickly, which is implicative all on its own. A change that quick would mean that either the feelings were not very strongly held to begin with or that there was a massive paradigm shift that totally flipped the script on their interactions and forced Mami to reconsider her original stance.
Mami being a person of fairly powerful conviction and will, the notion that the feelings were not strongly held does not seem terribly plausible, which leaves the paradigm shift.
In short, the reason Mami's attitude towards Homura changed was because of what she saw and understood during that time period, which I believe is why Kaizuki aims to speculate on it.
Or maybe I'm just rambling.
- Location
- Illinois
I am going to make precisely one more post before I shut down this computer and divest myself of electronics.
You have repeatedly made this assertion. I have avoided responding directly to it because I haven't seen a way to do so without accusing you of being in bad faith. Please read what I have had written this entire time:
No, I'm not going to explain to you why Homura would be able to figure out why Mami came to care about her. No matter how many times you ask me to, I won't, because she wouldn't be able to -- and that doesn't matter in the least, because since the very beginning what I have written out here has read, "Have Mami tell Homura why."
You've asked me to make an impossible argument and ignored the fact that it's completely irrelevant. Thanks, but no.
If one day, you found out that the person you were planning on having to kill was an innocent girl with emotions and troubles and innocence and worries, would you forget about finding that out within a few weeks of it happening?
That night, that happened to Mami. In the course of about four hours she discovered that Homura -- who she'd been working herself up to kill -- was actually a decent person who looked really, really small when she was having nightmares on Mami's sofa.
Oriko Mikuni worried Homura into nightmares right before Mami's eyes -- this girl who she'd just found out had the power to stop time. She watched Homura push herself past her limits and refuse to stop for no clear reason -- certainly it wasn't about territory. After all, with the power Homura demonstrated to her, Homura could have gone anywhere she cared and taken what she wanted.
It must have been a truly profound moment, to suddenly discover that the person you were planning on having to kill for being an evil bitch could have killed you at the drop of a hat and never even tried but is instead worrying themselves into nightmares over the foe that just burned down your friend's house.
Wouldn't you feel that that would be... particularly memorable?
Could you forget something like that? In a few weeks?
Could you forget how it then turned out that she'd been trying to prevent your other two friends from making contracts which would have turned their souls into rocks?
Vebyast, yesterday IC Mami remembered how we had said to her that we hadn't known the two of us could be friends. I promise you on whatever worth I have that she remembers all of this, too, and I'm sorry if I've failed to convey why that is to you.
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- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
you know, I just thought of a less mindbreakingly terrible way of putting the witch bomb out there, it isn't exactly the entire truth but its really close
you could easily point out that when you get more grief in your soul gem you start to feel worse in general, you just get into a worse emotional state. and that when you max out your soul gem you don't lose your powers or die, instead your mind sort of breaks and you go on a grief fueled rampage
you could easily point out that when you get more grief in your soul gem you start to feel worse in general, you just get into a worse emotional state. and that when you max out your soul gem you don't lose your powers or die, instead your mind sort of breaks and you go on a grief fueled rampage
- Location
- USA
I haven't been here very long, but I'm surprised at how toxic the posts here have been since the last update
And honestly? I don't understand at all why people are being so awful about Kaizuki's posts? They're long and a little rambly, yeah, but perfectly readable and understandable imo? And they're very clearly doing their best to offer insights without stepping on be any toes, AND offer sources for all their information. Why's everyone being so nasty to them for that?
What happened to this quest's golden rule of *being kind* to each other? Because the past couple of days have seen this quest a really unpleasant place to be, with people being needlessly aggressive and throwing baseless accusations around.
Guess I need to just turn off notifications for this thread and go back to story only, I suppose.
And honestly? I don't understand at all why people are being so awful about Kaizuki's posts? They're long and a little rambly, yeah, but perfectly readable and understandable imo? And they're very clearly doing their best to offer insights without stepping on be any toes, AND offer sources for all their information. Why's everyone being so nasty to them for that?
What happened to this quest's golden rule of *being kind* to each other? Because the past couple of days have seen this quest a really unpleasant place to be, with people being needlessly aggressive and throwing baseless accusations around.
Guess I need to just turn off notifications for this thread and go back to story only, I suppose.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
People feel very strongly about their chosen approaches and who Sabrina is as a character. Firnagzen does a good job of consolidating their positions and providing consistent characterization.
As for why people argue so viciously about seemingly inconsequential things? They feel they are actually really important, obviously, but that's, like, a primary reason for conflict in general aside from limited resources.
That about sums it up, without delving into any unpleasantness.
Sorry for quoting you after you've decided you'd rather follow the story than the thread, but I've felt you deserve at least a cursory explanation.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
*hugs everyone*
Except that guy in the back that owes me 20 dollars.
@Kaizuki
... Thought, when I try to write big long posts I tend to have an introductory paragraph with an executive summary like.
While it covered several months of real time the X posts of direct intervention covered about half a day of in game time. In this time Mami had a total 180 flip in her opinions of Homura, this shows one of two options. Either Mami's opinions were not strongly held or events so fundamentally altered her point of view of the situation that she was forced to reevaluate everything she knew.
>insert 5 paragraphs of supporting explanations<
>Provide summary that reaffirms the train of logic<
Or if you want to be shorter.. pretend your in a elevator and have 30 to 40 seconds to explain the idea. Further explanation comes after you get their attention.
Except that guy in the back that owes me 20 dollars.
@Kaizuki
... Thought, when I try to write big long posts I tend to have an introductory paragraph with an executive summary like.
While it covered several months of real time the X posts of direct intervention covered about half a day of in game time. In this time Mami had a total 180 flip in her opinions of Homura, this shows one of two options. Either Mami's opinions were not strongly held or events so fundamentally altered her point of view of the situation that she was forced to reevaluate everything she knew.
>insert 5 paragraphs of supporting explanations<
>Provide summary that reaffirms the train of logic<
Or if you want to be shorter.. pretend your in a elevator and have 30 to 40 seconds to explain the idea. Further explanation comes after you get their attention.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
Passion for the quest is great (and basically the point), but-- without naming names, because I don't want to call anyone out (and it's been coming from more than one person)-- The exact moment you're too emotionally invested in something is when someone disagreeing with you about it comes off as a personal attack, and you feel justified in attacking them back. When you (the imperial you, not you specifically) feel like that might be happening, you really need to take a step back and... chill, I guess, because virtually everyone here is at least trying to argue in good faith. This has become a really unfortunately consistent pattern of behavior for some people.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Alright, I went through the thread reading this... thisness, and it appears that the whole argument is about making Mami and Homura realize that they care about each other and show it in their interactions or something?
I wanted to say "what the fuck, people", but as I was typing this I've met a really pleasant elderly man, and I choose to interpret it as a sign from above and a reminder to be kind.
So, freaking out about a shitstorm that lasted for three pages aside, what I wanted to say is:
1) Homura cares about Mami, but doesn't consider herself worth the trouble. She will accept affection the way a kicked puppy does: with yearning and suspicion.
2) Mami cares about Homura, but feels guilty about misinterpreting who Homura is and chagrined she needs affection from other people to maintain her self-worth. If you noticed, she never opens up completely to two people at the same time, she has a confidant, a kouhai or a very close friend: in the first season, it was Madoka, in the Rebellion, it was Nagisa, in PMAS it's Sabrina.
These are the issues that we know about and that haven't gone away in the two weeks since Homura and Mami started interacting in earnest.
How do we fix this, you ask me?
I look at you blankly and reply, by being a good friend and a good girlfriend.
Sabrina isn't Mami's psychotherapist. She doesn't need to be, frankly. In other sources Mami has shown she can work her issues out simply by having friends who care about her and come out all the stronger for it.
Homura isn't so fortunate, because her burden is arguably heavier and mental strain she is subjected to is magnitudes more. I would have answered this with a meme protect your waifu had I been in a joking mood, but well, I'm not.
If you absolutely believe you must help Homura to get better by explaining things to her, ask what questions she has. I mean, yes, we said that. After explaining things that she needed time to muse on. Try from the other side when you talk to her. ( Frankly, let Firn exercise his artistic freedom )
Homura will not say nothing is wrong to us at this point, because she will know we will know it's a lie, and because it's pointless, since she logically explains to herself that better interaction is evidently possible and can help against Walpurgisnacht, and emotionally wants this interaction, this "being friends" and "being happy", but didn't believe it was possible. If she doesn't open up, just offer her to entertain an idea she can be happy and she deserves it.
They will get better. Because they are surrounded by kind people who want to help and be friends with them. I don't believe any paradigm shifts are really necessary when basic ( positive ) human interaction will do nicely.
There. Read it. Skip it. Deride it. Whatever. I wanted to say it more than I want to participate in an argument on whether I correctly read Homura's and Mami's characters.
However, I will enjoy an earnest discussion if someone cares to provide it, instead of telling me that I'm shit and my waifu is shit.
AuraTwilight had some interesting insights about Mami's magic and how it relates to Sabrina's relationship with her, actually.
Insightful.
I wanted to say "what the fuck, people", but as I was typing this I've met a really pleasant elderly man, and I choose to interpret it as a sign from above and a reminder to be kind.
So, freaking out about a shitstorm that lasted for three pages aside, what I wanted to say is:
1) Homura cares about Mami, but doesn't consider herself worth the trouble. She will accept affection the way a kicked puppy does: with yearning and suspicion.
2) Mami cares about Homura, but feels guilty about misinterpreting who Homura is and chagrined she needs affection from other people to maintain her self-worth. If you noticed, she never opens up completely to two people at the same time, she has a confidant, a kouhai or a very close friend: in the first season, it was Madoka, in the Rebellion, it was Nagisa, in PMAS it's Sabrina.
These are the issues that we know about and that haven't gone away in the two weeks since Homura and Mami started interacting in earnest.
How do we fix this, you ask me?
I look at you blankly and reply, by being a good friend and a good girlfriend.
Sabrina isn't Mami's psychotherapist. She doesn't need to be, frankly. In other sources Mami has shown she can work her issues out simply by having friends who care about her and come out all the stronger for it.
Homura isn't so fortunate, because her burden is arguably heavier and mental strain she is subjected to is magnitudes more. I would have answered this with a meme protect your waifu had I been in a joking mood, but well, I'm not.
If you absolutely believe you must help Homura to get better by explaining things to her, ask what questions she has. I mean, yes, we said that. After explaining things that she needed time to muse on. Try from the other side when you talk to her. ( Frankly, let Firn exercise his artistic freedom )
Homura will not say nothing is wrong to us at this point, because she will know we will know it's a lie, and because it's pointless, since she logically explains to herself that better interaction is evidently possible and can help against Walpurgisnacht, and emotionally wants this interaction, this "being friends" and "being happy", but didn't believe it was possible. If she doesn't open up, just offer her to entertain an idea she can be happy and she deserves it.
They will get better. Because they are surrounded by kind people who want to help and be friends with them. I don't believe any paradigm shifts are really necessary when basic ( positive ) human interaction will do nicely.
There. Read it. Skip it. Deride it. Whatever. I wanted to say it more than I want to participate in an argument on whether I correctly read Homura's and Mami's characters.
However, I will enjoy an earnest discussion if someone cares to provide it, instead of telling me that I'm shit and my waifu is shit.
AuraTwilight had some interesting insights about Mami's magic and how it relates to Sabrina's relationship with her, actually.
Insightful.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
What the fuck.
Kaizuki, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you didn't know there's a graphic depiction of murder in your video loop.
Please remove it. Someone with moderation privileges, Firnagzen or Higure or anyone, I don't care, just please remove it.
Just... what.
Kaizuki, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you didn't know there's a graphic depiction of murder in your video loop.
Please remove it. Someone with moderation privileges, Firnagzen or Higure or anyone, I don't care, just please remove it.
Just... what.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I cannot imagine that was deliberate, I straight up cannot.
And I'm very glad I usually just look at the titles and don't bother clicking.
And I'm very glad I usually just look at the titles and don't bother clicking.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Except that footnote 2 was 'I couldn't find a normal clip because they seem to end in horrible things'. I mean... You're angry and shocked and I respect your mental state at this moment, but I'm pretty sure they were referring to the fact that it is apparently a one hour loop and not the fact that it's... That...
Kaizuki is many things but malicious she is not. At least not that I have ever seen.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
I assume by (2) they meant they couldn't find a gif and instead found an hour long video on YouTube with murder bait in it they haven't checked for beyond first ten seconds.
I assume.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
What the fuck is going on in here lately? Good lord.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I'm just saying it's a mistake, not some malicious attack.
It's still awful but your initial reaction was excessive in any case but malice.
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
I don't even know anymore, I don't even know
feels like its just been nonstop argument, tension, and vitriol for all of may and a good chunk of april
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
So I've spoken with Kaizuki in private to see if the issue can be resolved and it's pretty obvious they genuinely didn't know. They can't edit it because of a self-requested threadban but at the moment it sounds like they're contacting a Mod to do it.
They asked me to say:
They asked me to say:
Kaizuki said:
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
I realize that this may be far too much to ask during a sensitive moment while you're in a lot of distress, or a manifestation of my own oversensitivity, but if you know that the contents of the video are triggering, I'm going to ask you not to describe them in the detail that you do without spoilers.
I don't appreciate the very graphic images that are in my head right now, either. I don't appreciate the invitation to dwell on these images, or the writing prompts for my intrusive thoughts.
I don't appreciate the very graphic images that are in my head right now, either. I don't appreciate the invitation to dwell on these images, or the writing prompts for my intrusive thoughts.