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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Torgamous said:
A normal Grief Seed starts with about that much Grief from the magical girl that became it.
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But all that grief is still from the original person. When it comes to other people's grief, a normal grief seed will typically be used up over about a week or so --- IIRC, the exact numbers are at the end of Sendai --- and while that grief is negligible in terms of volume compared with what the seed already contains, the use is enough to make the witch significantly stronger when it re-hatches.

I think whatever is going on there is more than a matter of grief alone, volume-wise.

And in retrospect, I find it notable that that's about how long it took for Aurora's core to be permanently altered by use from Oriko and Kirika.
 
Vebyast said:
I mean, Sabrina's soul is strange, we know that more than a few abilities don't work on us because of it. We know that we have some odd things going on in our mind and I'm sure that they'd show up to a mind-reader. So I started writing "Take the weirdness that's our metaknowledge and moderately-superior multitasking and super languages everything and emphasize that until it becomes too confusing for a hostile mind-mage to target", but then I realized that I might as well just say "brain-damage".
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"Alright," you say. "Hit me."

Sayaka raises a hand glittering with borrowed power - heh, it's like she's got the infinity gauntlet too - not that this is the time for jokes - but she still hesitates. Even the sensation of her magic is reticent, apologetic as it encroaches upon your mind, no matter that you're kind of asking to be invaded over here.

"Is something wrong?" you ask.

"Kinda?" Sayaka winces. "I don't wanna rag on you for being cagey, but you've kept a lot of secrets for some very good reasons. I guess I still kind of expect you to have more?"

"It's okay," you laugh. "I am pretty cagey. But if there are any big secrets left up here, I trust you to know them."

"What about the little secrets, then?"

"Well, me and Mami would rather you didn't peek at our date night memories, but that's just embarrassing, not existentially threatening."

Sayaka rolls her eyes, her magic still soaking into your mind, and your mind starts wandering again. If she can't take the heat, then you can keep your mind on normal things. Like the infinity gauntlet. How many power gems would it take to establish a limited omnipotence, anyways-?

"Sabrina, why exactly do you remember a timeline where I married Kyoko and had a child?"

"I dunno! Probably for the same reason that I remember you turning into an angel, despite the fact that that's never ever happened. I know you've never turned into an angel, by the way, because if you had, you would be directly incarnated here to help this incarnation of Madoka, and you would remember your existences from across all timelines, so you wouldn't be surprised by my hypothetical brain damage knowledge."

"I hate you so much right now," Sayaka says.

"It's not my fault all of this is rattling around in my head!"

"It is 100% exactly your fault for making me take David Lewis seriously again."

"Don't be ridiculous. Different possible worlds are causally isolated by definition, so I can't genuinely remember other possible worlds to begin with. And if I do remember them, it's only because memory is a special case of imagination. Which I'm asking you to investigate for brain damage. Any progress on that, by the way?"

Sayaka thins her lips and pulls away, so it's probably bad news.

"First things first, I've been testing these powers on some other volunteers. Magical Girls and ordinary humans."

"To establish a control group for me, right?"

"Yeah." Sayaka tries to laugh, but the noise comes out a little flat. It drips out of her mouth and splatters against the floor. "I can see why the girl I got these from was, uh, such a bitch."

"Why's that?"

"People look... weird, under these. They're predictable, I guess?"

"Oh," you say. Distantly, some part of you is rummaging for 'compatibilism 101'. "I'm sorry for being a deterministic entity? And really glad that you're not being a misanthrope about this."

"Nah," Sayaka says. "People look weird when I read their minds, but I look weird when I read my mind, too, and we're all still people. The really weird thing is that you're not predictable, Sabrina. You don't seem to have a brain to damage or a mind to read."

...okay, that can't be right.

"I definitely feel like I have a mind," you say. "I suppose it's possible that I don't have a mind, but my suppositions have no bearing on whether I have a mind or not, so I'm only entertaining the possibility in order to think about the implications for other people. By which I mean to say that Mami would probably appreciate it if you don't tell her I'm a vegetable."

"Oh shut up," Sayaka says. "Two days ago, I couldn't see the hippocampus, but I still figured it existed. I'm not going to assume you're brain dead just cause I can't get a good look at your thoughts."

"Thanks?" you say. "Um, I'm sorry for being a purely epiphenomenal entity? And really really really glad that you're not being a misanthrope about this."

Sayaka gives you a shove.

"Seriously, though, what do I look like if I'm not made of predictable mental clockwork?"

"You look like a clock without the clockwork," Sayaka shoots back. "The hands are turning but no-one's home to turn them. Thoughts are appearing out of nowhere like dad jokes and bad puns to the face at a kilometer a second."

"Huh," you say. "It must be divine intervention, then."

"Excuse me?"

"I mean, if I can appear in Mitakihara out of nowhere, there's no reason thoughts can't appear in my skull out of nowhere, too. It's simple stuff. I'm an actively sustained miracle upon the face of the Earth, and my thoughts are the axiomatic emanations of first movers. No biggie."

"For the last time," Sayaka says. "Just because Madoka might have intervened with godlike powers, that doesn't mean she's actually a goddess."

"What do you think a goddess is, Sayaka?"

"Someone smart enough to boot her heralds up with common sense," Sayaka says. "See, you'd better thank me for being as mortal as you are, 'cause if I was one of Madoka's hypothetical angels, you know there's no way that I'd ever be able to put up with you."

"Sorry, did you say something? My counterfactual, transcendental oversoul doesn't want me to listen to anything that makes me feel bad."

"I said that you have even less common sense than the vegetable your brain seems to be."

"Aw, Sayaka, that's so sweet!"

"You suck, and if gods are actually putting this nonsense above all else in your head, I'm gonna become my Ultimate Self and overthrow the divine order."
 
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Subrosian_Smithy said:
"Alright," you say. "Hit me."

Sayaka raises a hand glittering with borrowed power - heh, it's like she's got the infinity gauntlet too - not that this is the time for jokes - but she still hesitates. Even the sensation of her magic is reticent, apologetic as it encroaches upon your mind, no matter that you're kind of asking to be invaded over here.

"Is something wrong?" you ask.

"Kinda?" Sayaka winces. "I don't wanna rag on you for being cagey, but you've kept a lot of secrets for some very good reasons. I guess I still kind of expect you to have more?"

"It's okay," you laugh. "I am pretty cagey. But if there are any big secrets left up here, I trust you to know them."

"What about the little secrets, then?"

"Well, me and Mami would rather you didn't peek at our date night memories, but that's just embarrassing, not existentially threatening."

Sayaka rolls her eyes, her magic still soaking into your mind, and your mind starts wandering again. If she can't take the heat, then you can keep your mind on normal things. Like the infinity gauntlet. How many power gems would it take to establish a limited omnipotence, anyways-?

"Sabrina, why exactly do you remember a timeline where I married Kyoko and had a child?"

"I dunno! Probably for the same reason that I remember you turning into an angel, despite the fact that that's never ever happened. I know you've never turned into an angel, by the way, because if you had, you would be directly incarnated here to help this incarnation of Madoka, and you would remember your existences from across all timelines, so you wouldn't be surprised by my hypothetical brain damage knowledge."

"I hate you so much right now," Sayaka says.

"It's not my fault all of this is rattling around in my head!"

"It is 100% exactly your fault for making me take David Lewis seriously again."

"Don't be ridiculous. Different possible worlds are causally isolated by definition, so I can't genuinely remember other possible worlds to begin with. And if I do remember them, it's only because memory is a special case of imagination. Which I'm asking you to investigate for brain damage. Any progress on that, by the way?"

Sayaka thins her lips and pulls away, so it's probably bad news.

"First things first, I've been testing these powers on some other volunteers. Magical Girls and ordinary humans."

"To establish a control group for me, right?"

"Yeah." Sayaka tries to laugh, but the noise comes out a little flat. It drips out of her mouth and splatters against the floor. "I can see why the girl I got these from was, uh, such a bitch."

"Why's that?"

"People look... weird, under these. They're predictable, I guess?"

"Oh," you say. Distantly, some part of you is rummaging for 'compatibilism 101'. "I'm sorry for being a deterministic entity? And really glad that you're not being a misanthrope about this."

"Nah," Sayaka says. "People look weird when I read their minds, but I look weird when I read my mind, too, and we're all still people. The really weird thing is that you're not predictable, Sabrina. You don't seem to have a brain to damage or a mind to read."

...okay, that can't be right.

"I definitely feel like I have a mind," you say. "I suppose it's possible that I don't have a mind, but my suppositions have no bearing on whether I have a mind or not, so I'm only entertaining the possibility in order to think about the implications for other people. By which I mean to say that Mami would probably appreciate it if you don't tell her I'm a vegetable."

"Oh shut up," Sayaka says. "Two days ago, I couldn't see the hippocampus, but I still figured it existed. I'm not going to assume you're brain dead just cause I can't get a good look at your thoughts."

"Thanks?" you say. "Um, I'm sorry for being a purely epiphenomenal entity? And really really really glad that you're not being a misanthrope about this."

Sayaka gives you a shove.

"Seriously, though, what do I look like if I'm not made of predictable mental clockwork?"

"You look like a clock without the clockwork," Sayaka shoots back. "The hands are turning but no-one's home to turn them. Thoughts are appearing out of nowhere like dad jokes and bad puns to the face at a kilometer a second."

"Huh," you say. "It must be divine intervention, then."

"Excuse me?"

"I mean, if I can appear in Mitakihara out of nowhere, there's no reason thoughts can't appear in my skull out of nowhere, too. It's simple stuff. I'm an actively sustained miracle upon the face of the Earth, and my thoughts are the axiomatic emanations of first movers. No biggie."

"For the last time," Sayaka says. "Just because Madoka might have intervened with godlike powers, that doesn't mean she's actually a goddess."

"What do you think a goddess is, Sayaka?"

"Someone smart enough to boot her heralds up with common sense," Sayaka says. "See, you'd better thank me for being as mortal as you are, 'cause if I was one of Madoka's hypothetical angels, you know there's no way that I'd ever be able to put up with you."

"Sorry, did you say something? My counterfactual, transcendental oversoul doesn't want me to listen to anything that makes me feel bad."

"I said that you have even less common sense than the vegetable your brain seems to be."

"Aw, Sayaka, that's so sweet!"

"You suck, and if gods are actually putting this nonsense above all else in your head, I'm gonna become my Ultimate Self and overthrow the divine order."
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what I get from that is that we are some kind of holy grail of brain damage. we come up with insanity and plans without doing any of the actual thinking required to get there. cause all that has been outsourced
 
The Phoenixian said:
But all that grief is still from the original person. When it comes to other people's grief, a normal grief seed will typically be used up over about a week or so --- IIRC, the exact numbers are at the end of Sendai --- and while that grief is negligible in terms of volume compared with what the seed already contains, the use is enough to make the witch significantly stronger when it re-hatches.

I think whatever is going on there is more than a matter of grief alone, volume-wise.

And in retrospect, I find it notable that that's about how long it took for Aurora's core to be permanently altered by use from Oriko and Kirika.
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I think the question is not about volume of Grief, but about interaction.

Like, imagine you have the absolutely shittiest day of live, that just happens to last for eternity.

Now imagine someone making your day even worse. You didn't think it was possible. You were kinda getting used to the levels of shittiness involved. You thought you hit the bottom. And then someone knocks and opens a hatch.

So, I think the increased strength and aggression of a Witch on re-hatching comes from her going berserker on a Meguca for using her already suffering soul as a dumpster for more Grief. Doesn't even matter if it's the same Guca: she suffers and wants it to stop.

That's just my headcanon, mind you.

As for why the Witch accepts Grief in that case, well.
None of them are particularly lucid. As it was mentioned, many of them might delude themselves that everything is fine and dandy. As far as they know, Grief is normal. Grief is the state of being, and in some twisted way, Grief is the being for a Witch.
Why shouldn't she accept more of it then?

Until she actually feels worse and gets mad, of course.
 
Raiseth said:
I think the question is not about volume of Grief, but about interaction.

Like, imagine you have the absolutely shittiest day of live, that just happens to last for eternity.

Now imagine someone making your day even worse. You didn't think it was possible. You were kinda getting used to the levels of shittiness involved. You thought you hit the bottom. And then someone knocks and opens a hatch.

So, I think the increased strength and aggression of a Witch on re-hatching comes from her going berserker on a Meguca for using her already suffering soul as a dumpster for more Grief. Doesn't even matter if it's the same Guca: she suffers and wants it to stop.

That's just my headcanon, mind you.

As for why the Witch accepts Grief in that case, well.
None of them are particularly lucid. As it was mentioned, many of them might delude themselves that everything is fine and dandy. As far as they know, Grief is normal. Grief is the state of being, and in some twisted way, Grief is the being for a Witch.
Why shouldn't she accept more of it then?

Until she actually feels worse and gets mad, of course.
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I think that the reason they get stronger and more unstable has less to do with quantity and more with quality
witches are product of a girls life being shit, and all of those negative emotions running out of control and taking them over
now imagine if that was you, and suddenly some other girl foists her own problems onto you, now you're not just feeling and dealing with the shitiness of your life, youre also suddenly aware and feeling pain for all the shit going on in the other girls life
you become in a sense a more well rounded being of pure suffering

as for why grief seeds accept grief I have two theories, the first is that it is simply a built in facet of the puella magi system. it wouldn't be good if the girls witched out to quick without time to mature into the best witch they could be after all. its also a good way to put in place the incentive to hunt witches and therefore collect grief seeds that will latter be handed over to the incubator for whatever purpose they collect them

the second theory is more tenuous. cause witches are paradoxical beings of contradictions, they are beings od suffering who don't exist to cause suffering but do simply because they suffer so much. their barriers are a wonderland meant to comfort them and let them hide from the world and yet they are also filled with reminders of their despair and how horrible they are like an ironic hell.
 
Raiseth said:
I think the question is not about volume of Grief, but about interaction.

Like, imagine you have the absolutely shittiest day of live, that just happens to last for eternity.

Now imagine someone making your day even worse. You didn't think it was possible. You were kinda getting used to the levels of shittiness involved. You thought you hit the bottom. And then someone knocks and opens a hatch.

So, I think the increased strength and aggression of a Witch on re-hatching comes from her going berserker on a Meguca for using her already suffering soul as a dumpster for more Grief. Doesn't even matter if it's the same Guca: she suffers and wants it to stop.

That's just my headcanon, mind you.

As for why the Witch accepts Grief in that case, well.
None of them are particularly lucid. As it was mentioned, many of them might delude themselves that everything is fine and dandy. As far as they know, Grief is normal. Grief is the state of being, and in some twisted way, Grief is the being for a Witch.
Why shouldn't she accept more of it then?

Until she actually feels worse and gets mad, of course.
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I think this is something we can look into from multiple angles. People who've been around like Homura might if the witch's power materially changes at all after the second hatching, and ideally if it at all resembles that of the girl who used the seed.

And, ugh, failing that Kyuubey would probably be able to answers as to what happens to re-hatched seeds and what probable results he expects from clear seeds over the long term in great detail too. :/
 
Subrosian_Smithy said:
"Alright," you say. "Hit me."

Sayaka raises a hand glittering with borrowed power - heh, it's like she's got the infinity gauntlet too - not that this is the time for jokes - but she still hesitates. Even the sensation of her magic is reticent, apologetic as it encroaches upon your mind, no matter that you're kind of asking to be invaded over here.

"Is something wrong?" you ask.

"Kinda?" Sayaka winces. "I don't wanna rag on you for being cagey, but you've kept a lot of secrets for some very good reasons. I guess I still kind of expect you to have more?"

"It's okay," you laugh. "I am pretty cagey. But if there are any big secrets left up here, I trust you to know them."

"What about the little secrets, then?"

"Well, me and Mami would rather you didn't peek at our date night memories, but that's just embarrassing, not existentially threatening."

Sayaka rolls her eyes, her magic still soaking into your mind, and your mind starts wandering again. If she can't take the heat, then you can keep your mind on normal things. Like the infinity gauntlet. How many power gems would it take to establish a limited omnipotence, anyways-?

"Sabrina, why exactly do you remember a timeline where I married Kyoko and had a child?"

"I dunno! Probably for the same reason that I remember you turning into an angel, despite the fact that that's never ever happened. I know you've never turned into an angel, by the way, because if you had, you would be directly incarnated here to help this incarnation of Madoka, and you would remember your existences from across all timelines, so you wouldn't be surprised by my hypothetical brain damage knowledge."

"I hate you so much right now," Sayaka says.

"It's not my fault all of this is rattling around in my head!"

"It is 100% exactly your fault for making me take David Lewis seriously again."

"Don't be ridiculous. Different possible worlds are causally isolated by definition, so I can't genuinely remember other possible worlds to begin with. And if I do remember them, it's only because memory is a special case of imagination. Which I'm asking you to investigate for brain damage. Any progress on that, by the way?"

Sayaka thins her lips and pulls away, so it's probably bad news.

"First things first, I've been testing these powers on some other volunteers. Magical Girls and ordinary humans."

"To establish a control group for me, right?"

"Yeah." Sayaka tries to laugh, but the noise comes out a little flat. It drips out of her mouth and splatters against the floor. "I can see why the girl I got these from was, uh, such a bitch."

"Why's that?"

"People look... weird, under these. They're predictable, I guess?"

"Oh," you say. Distantly, some part of you is rummaging for 'compatibilism 101'. "I'm sorry for being a deterministic entity? And really glad that you're not being a misanthrope about this."

"Nah," Sayaka says. "People look weird when I read their minds, but I look weird when I read my mind, too, and we're all still people. The really weird thing is that you're not predictable, Sabrina. You don't seem to have a brain to damage or a mind to read."

...okay, that can't be right.

"I definitely feel like I have a mind," you say. "I suppose it's possible that I don't have a mind, but my suppositions have no bearing on whether I have a mind or not, so I'm only entertaining the possibility in order to think about the implications for other people. By which I mean to say that Mami would probably appreciate it if you don't tell her I'm a vegetable."

"Oh shut up," Sayaka says. "Two days ago, I couldn't see the hippocampus, but I still figured it existed. I'm not going to assume you're brain dead just cause I can't get a good look at your thoughts."

"Thanks?" you say. "Um, I'm sorry for being a purely epiphenomenal entity? And really really really glad that you're not being a misanthrope about this."

Sayaka gives you a shove.

"Seriously, though, what do I look like if I'm not made of predictable mental clockwork?"

"You look like a clock without the clockwork," Sayaka shoots back. "The hands are turning but no-one's home to turn them. Thoughts are appearing out of nowhere like dad jokes and bad puns to the face at a kilometer a second."

"Huh," you say. "It must be divine intervention, then."

"Excuse me?"

"I mean, if I can appear in Mitakihara out of nowhere, there's no reason thoughts can't appear in my skull out of nowhere, too. It's simple stuff. I'm an actively sustained miracle upon the face of the Earth, and my thoughts are the axiomatic emanations of first movers. No biggie."

"For the last time," Sayaka says. "Just because Madoka might have intervened with godlike powers, that doesn't mean she's actually a goddess."

"What do you think a goddess is, Sayaka?"

"Someone smart enough to boot her heralds up with common sense," Sayaka says. "See, you'd better thank me for being as mortal as you are, 'cause if I was one of Madoka's hypothetical angels, you know there's no way that I'd ever be able to put up with you."

"Sorry, did you say something? My counterfactual, transcendental oversoul doesn't want me to listen to anything that makes me feel bad."

"I said that you have even less common sense than the vegetable your brain seems to be."

"Aw, Sayaka, that's so sweet!"

"You suck, and if gods are actually putting this nonsense above all else in your head, I'm gonna become my Ultimate Self and overthrow the divine order."
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Hey, I really like it.
I had this plot bunny about Sabrina & Co becoming a slightly ( haha ) screwed up family in the future. In a fun way.

So here's something in return:

Sabrina "Brina" Vee ( soon to be Tomoe, to her eternal delight ), was not having a really good day.

You think defeating Walpurgisnacht and solving the cosmic horror of the state the universe was in before she'd arrived means you don't have any problems anymore, right?

Wrong.

Sabrina was having a meeting with her friends, and it wasn't going well.

Four years passed. She succeeded in everything. Basically, won in life, hurrah!

Sabrina's eye twitched.

But she still didn't know what the deal was about those freaking Feathers!

"... for the last time, Sabrina, knock it off already!" Sayaka said forcefully, receiving nods of agreement from Kyouko, Homura and Oriko. She scowled at Oriko until she stopped nodding. To Oriko's left Kirika started hissing like a very murderous cat.

Sayaka broke eye contact and continued, pretending that freaking Oriko Kure didn't just agree with her.

"Doesn't matter, who or what you are. Doesn't matter whether you are a product of divine or demonic intervention. Doesn't even matter if you're secretly a teenage Witch-"

"I'm a nineteen years old adult!" Sabrina protested.

"So start acting like one already!" Sayaka griped, more than a little annoyed.

Mami Tomoe ( soon to be married, thank you very much ) made a deliberate sip from her cup of tea.

Sayaka looked at her, abashed, then hanged her head in acceptance.

"Yeah, Mami, sorry for shouting at your girlfriend."

"That's quite alright, Sayaka," Mami smiled pleasantly. She was always put in a good mood when someone mentioned her closeness to her significant other. "Besides, Sabrina, my love," she blushed heavily while Madoka ( unsuccessfully ) tried to muffle her squeal of delight, and dammit they were acting soooo cute and she really regretted her phone was out of charge at the moment-"You are behaving a little silly. Juuust a little."

Sabrina stared at her in mock betrayal:

"Et tu, Mami?" She looked around her friends. "I'm not being silly! Not this time!"

"Sabrina," Madoka interrupted gently, "You kind of are. You know we will support you no matter who you are," her lips quirked in amusement, "my slightly brain-damaged daughter."

"Thanks, Mom," Sabrina rolled her eyes, her smile showing she was actually pleased. "But this isn't about me."

"Riiight," Yuma quipped, her eyes not lifting up from her smartphone. Kyouko sighed. She used to be such a precious child. No one would ever make her to admit it, but Kyouko really missed her being called 'Big Sis'.

"It's about Feathers!" Sabrina wasn't deterred.

Everyone groaned. Even Mami's smile took a slightly strained quality to it.

"You and your pteranophobia again-"

"Can't believe I was dragged here for this from fucking Kasamino-"

"Perhaps I wasn't the best mother, but I and Homura had you so early! Divine me, I beg you for guidance-"

"Yuma! Stop swearing!"

"Yeah, Yuma! Even though I can't really-"

"Get over yourselves, Moms! I'm thirteen!"

"Have you tried an eyepatch to hide your eyes from these Feathe-"

"Stop! Stop! Time out! Let me-"

A gunshot.

Everyone stared at Homura, already transformed, but still sitting. The gun in her hand, pointed at the ceiling, was still smoking.

Madoka tsked disapprovingly. Homura blushed and refused to meet her eyes.

"Let's hear Sabrina out, one last time," she said. "If she provides a convincing argument, we'll listen to her and act. If she doesn't," she stared at Sabrina, who waved nervously back. Homura sighed. "I shall attend to my duties and escort my d-d-daughter," her blush reappeared and intensified, "to a professional psychologist."

Madoka rose an eyebrow.

"And of course, I will pay for the damages to the ceiling, regardless."

Madoka smiled warmly.

Sabrina stared at Homura in dismay.

"Homumom," she pouted.

She blushed even more.

Madoka noticed and nodded confidently.

"It will be a family visit! Fun for everyone!" She clapped her hands in delight.

On the other side of the city, Kyubey suddenly realized that today was one of those days when he had to spend several hours running damage control like crazy.

He almost sighed. Those crazy bipeds were driving him to emotion.
 
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Subrosian_Smithy said:
"Sorry, did you say something? My counterfactual, transcendental oversoul doesn't want me to listen to anything that makes me feel bad."

"I said that you have even less common sense than the vegetable your brain seems to be."

"Aw, Sayaka, that's so sweet!"

"You suck, and if gods are actually putting this nonsense above all else in your head, I'm gonna become my Ultimate Self and overthrow the divine order."
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Now THIS is philosophical shitposting.
Subrosian_Smithy said:
"I mean, if I can appear in Mitakihara out of nowhere, there's no reason thoughts can't appear in my skull out of nowhere, too. It's simple stuff. I'm an actively sustained miracle upon the face of the Earth, and my thoughts are the axiomatic emanations of first movers. No biggie."

"For the last time," Sayaka says. "Just because Madoka might have intervened with godlike powers, that doesn't mean she's actually a goddess."
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I like how Sayaka sees where this is going from a mile away and jumps straight to the nope.
 
Vebyast said:
I actually think that we should do it outside timestop.
  • Cat's already out of the bag wrt Homura caring about Madoka. Even Sayaka sees it.
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Not the point. These lines in particular go above and beyond that:

Vebyast said:
You're helping with the first, the whole politics thing, and you and Sayaka are doing your best about the second, but only Homura can really do that. Madoka admires her and values her opinion more than she does anyone else's.
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These things are not normal, Vebyast. That is exiting "strange" and emigrating into "Magic". "The strange interactions between Madoka and Homura are the result of Magic" raises an awful lot of questions, Vebyast, and the way your statements are phrased Homura isn't going to miss that they overstep what we're supposed to be not saying around someone whom we haven't yet justified sharing the history of the loops with to Homura.

Apart from those lines, it's something I'm basically okay with.

Vebyast said:
As for your suggestion... dude, communicate. You don't need to "ask Mami for a favor" and let her "figure out what you're asking for". Just tell her what you think is going on and request input. It's like when you're asking for letters of recommendation. You don't ask "Could you write a letter of recommendation for me?". You ask "Do you think you can write me a good letter of recommendation?". You need to give them a chance to consider whether they can comfortably and honestly do what you're asking them to do and course-correct if necessary.
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I don't know where you got "let her figure out what you're asking for" from anything I have posted, but I'd certainly like to know so that I could excise it:

Kaizuki said:
[] Tell Mami you need a favor. It's important, and will help with Homura.
-[] Ask Mami to relate to Homura, in detail, how she sees and feels about her, how those things have changed over the time she's known her, and why and when those things have changed over the time she's known her.
-[] Encourage questions/comments as reasonable (i.e. as long as it doesn't make Homura uncomfortable)
[] Later, affirm to Mami that interacting with Homura is a Good Thing. Homura really needs good friends.
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I mean, it certainly looks to me like I'm word-for-word asking for a specific thing. Oh, maybe you didn't catch the specifics or something? I'm asking for her to relate the whole, I'm not fishing for some specific part. "Ask Mami to relate to Homura, in detail, how she sees and feels about her, how those things have changed over the time she's known her, and why and when those things have changed over the time she's known her." means exactly what the words comprising it say it does: "Ask Mami to relate to Homura, in detail, how she sees and feels about her, how those things have changed over the time she's known her, and why and when those things have changed over the time she's known her."

For that reason, this:

Vebyast said:
[x] Talk to Mami a bit more about Homura.
-[x] It feel like Homura has a hard time remembering how friendships work and might not realize that people care about her. Homura could certainly do with some explicit reminders of that, but it feels weird to go around telling your friends to let Homura know they care. Does Mami have any ideas?
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Is exactly what I do not want to see, because it amounts to a dismissal and minimization of everything I'm pushing for.

[x] Head to the kitchen to finish making dinner with Mami! Aaaaand to follow Sayaka's lead and give Madoka and Homura a few minutes just to themselves.

[x] Before you forget, brainmail O+K. Explain the situation briefly and request a couple anti-magic enchantments that'll stop all magic that isn't from one of your group of friends.
[x] Have some fun brainstorming more defensive enchantments for people to try. Your friends can handle picking the good ideas out of the bad, so go nuts, be creative.

[x] Politics discussion
-[x] Refine the "be kind to each other" statement - you do recognize that a functioning justice system is ultimately a threat of force; you have been completely explicit about your intent to drop the hammer on people that abuse Clear Seeds.
--[x] You'd just prefer less "20 angry magical girls at your front door" and more "modern policing organization".

[x] After Madoka and Sayaka leave:
-[x] Observe that tonight might be the happiest you've ever seen Madoka.
--[x] Madoka has self-worth issues, right? She needs to feel like she's contributing, and she doubts herself and needs friends to support her and convince her that she's doing okay... And, it seems like Homura being around has been helping with it too. It's good to see.
---[X] Let/cue Mami to comment on that, too. (Establish that this isn't just something you're coming up with)
----[X] Even Sayaka seems to think so -- she spent most of tonight giving Homura opportunities to be around Madoka.

[x] After you finish talking to Homura:
-[x] TO THE INTERNETS[/QUOTE]

I don't think there's really time to fit what I want in along with the internet and Vebyast's stuff tonight. If @Firnagzen has anything to say on that I might revise things.

Meanwhile, I'll say it for him: votes, please, people.
 
Kaizuki said:
I don't know where you got "let her figure out what you're asking for" from anything I have posted, but I'd certainly like to know so that I could excise it:
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How about your entire vote and every single thing you've posted about it so far?
Kaizuki said:
[] Tell Mami you need a favor. It's important, and will help with Homura.
-[] Ask Mami to relate to Homura, in detail, how she sees and feels about her, how those things have changed over the time she's known her, and why and when those things have changed over the time she's known her.
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"Hey Mami, I need you to go do a thing. I know that you don't understand why it matters or what it's going to do, so I'm going to ask you to follow orders exactly and I'll owe you a favor." And then when I ask you for motivation, you give me this shit:
Kaizuki said:
No, you misunderstand. We don't give a motivation. We don't need to. Mami trusts us. We let Mami come to her own conclusions from our behavior, our request, and Homura's reactions -- we literally do not need to say why we're asking her to do it; she'll figure it out generally just from the actions entailed; there's more than enough information packaged there for it.
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Kaizuki said:
I mean, it certainly looks to me like I'm word-for-word asking for a specific thing. Oh, maybe you didn't catch the specifics or something? I'm asking for her to relate the whole, I'm not fishing for some specific part. "Ask Mami to relate to Homura, in detail, how she sees and feels about her, how those things have changed over the time she's known her, and why and when those things have changed over the time she's known her." means exactly what the words comprising it say it does: "Ask Mami to relate to Homura, in detail, how she sees and feels about her, how those things have changed over the time she's known her, and why and when those things have changed over the time she's known her."
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That's not an explanation. That's adding more details to your orders and doubling down on the "let Mami figure out what you're trying to do and why and how". We are not going to micromanage Mami's interactions with Homura, and we're not going to ask her to do things without giving her any motivation or explanation or bigger picture.
Kaizuki said:
Is exactly what I do not want to see, because it amounts to a dismissal and minimization of everything I'm pushing for.
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If your vote really does represent the best course of action for Mami to take to help Homura, then she'll figure that out and do it herself. Mami is good at social. Mami knows Homura. We do not need to keep her in the dark and feed her shit. We do not need to give her marching orders. We can work with her to find a good solution. Like I said: You don't request letters of recommendation from people, because if you just do that they may write you a perfectly honest letter that will guarantee you never get a job. You tell them what kind of position you're applying for and ask them if they think they can write you a good letter of recommendation for that position.

Edit: The entire point of this quest is communication and people and being kind to them. In the case, that means that, instead of telling Mami exactly what to do and letting her figure out what we're trying to do, we tell her what we're trying to do and work with her to figure out how to do it. You know, assume that she has agency and expertise and treat her like a peer.
Kaizuki said:
Meanwhile, I'll say it for him: votes, please, people.
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Yelling for more votes right now is only going to result in people voting without understanding what's going on. Are you really so short on confidence in your vote that you think that your best chance of winning is to call a bavarian fire drill and hope that people vote for you in the confusion?
 
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Vebyast said:
Edit: The entire point of this quest is communication and people and being kind to them. In the case, that means that, instead of telling Mami exactly what to do and letting her figure out what we're trying to do, we tell her what we're trying to do and work with her to figure out how to do it. You know, assume that she has agency and expertise and treat her like a peer.
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I --

Aha, I think I begin to understand.

Listen, I don't view this as micromanagement or not giving her agency or whatever. I guess I must have really fucked something up to make you think so poorly of me, but I have never tried to push either of those things. I've been here for three years and I've only ever advocated treating her more equally, and being more open with her.

To me, this is a teaching moment, though.

One of Mami's biggest regrets is that she failed to communicate successfully with Homura before we showed up.

Firnagzen said:
"Y- you weren't thinking," Mami echoes hollowly, slow tears beginning to make tracks down her face. "B-but you still- you can talk down Akemi. And Kyouko. And save people, better than I ever c-could. A-and your magic. Y-y-you don't need broken old Mami any more. You never did..."
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See, this, here:

Vebyast said:
If your vote really does represent the best course of action for Mami to take to help Homura, then she'll figure that out and do it herself. Mami is good at social. Mami knows Homura.
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This is a misconception. Mami knows Homura -- generally. Mami is good at social -- generally. Mami will figure out and take the best course of action to help her friends -- generally.

Firnagzen said:
Unlike just about everyone else, Sabrina is Mami's equal. And therein lies the root of Mami's reaction.
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Mami is a person -- partly, or even largely due to Kyubey's influence -- who does not know how to deal with people who are her equal. She also isn't always confident, especially not when it comes to interacting with friends. It's not true that Mami is going to figure out and take the best course of action for her to help Homura on her own, partly through self doubt, partly through ignorance, partly because actually she has a long history of screwing that up with other Magical Girl friends and then they leave her -- see Kyouko, and to a lesser extent Masami.

Mami concluded that Homura was a bad person, and before we showed up she'd gone well past pushing Homura away and was preparing to fight her.

She is not going to try something major with Homura on her own. Homura is her equal, Homura is someone she already screwed up with, we already told her that we were working on helping Homura -- Homura is the exact case where Mami is going to shy away from trying social action on her own initiative.

What I want to do here is show Mami that yes she can do positive things for Homura directly, that yes she can talk to Homura in a way that Homura will understand her, and how to do those things. Speaking with Homura is about specifics and clarity and not assuming she's going to pick up on social cues, and if we show Mami that, it will help a lot.

As I understand it, what you'd have me do is tell Mami all of this and then give her a push. Because this is out of Mami's comfort zone, that is not actually the best approach. What you're calling micromanagement is not intended as that -- it's intended as a held hand. That's why the text is "Ask Mami to relate to Homura, in detail, how she sees and feels about her, how those things have changed over the time she's known her, and why and when those things have changed over the time she's known her." instead of something where we're asking her questions about specific times and events and etcetera. And it's intended as a held hand because having us there to walk with her is going to make it a lot easier on Mami than it would be otherwise.

... It's also partly worded this way because I was trying to be more concise >_>

You want me to communicate to Mami how to do all of these things and then have her do them herself. You use the metaphor, "Just tell her what you think is going on and request input. It's like when you're asking for letters of recommendation. You don't ask "Could you write a letter of 'recommendation for me?'. You ask 'Do you think you can write me a good letter of recommendation?'" But that's not what I see here. What I see her is showing her how to write a good letter of recommendation, when the other times she has tried, it hasn't worked out.

There are, I am sure, ways to better instill that into a vote than what I've had so far. But... well, first let's establish this, yeah? And I don't think we're doing this tonight, anyways, as I mentioned earlier... speaking of which,

Vebyast said:
Yelling for more votes right now is only going to result in people voting without understanding what's going on. Are you really so short on confidence in your vote that you think that your best chance of winning is to call a bavarian fire drill and hope that people vote for you in the confusion?
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There have been four votes in three days totaling 2-1-1. At the time I wrote that I was going off an outdated tally that I later found was from 2:27 AM yesterday, which had two votes. I'm not even voting for the topic we're discussing, I'm voting for an altered version of your vote -- which you've said nothing about.
 
[X] Dinner!
[X] Look for opportunities to give Homura and Madoka time to themselves.

[X] Prepare enchanted grief for the use later in the evening, as you have time.
-[X] Use enchanted grief to test your and Sayaka's enchantments with a mind reading device.
-[X] Take a moment to test an enchanted grief marble with a clear seed you haven't pushed your own magic into yet. See if it plebs.
-[X] See if you can recycle enchanted grief from a griefhaxed item by using the edge of your range to refresh it.
[X] Internet vote in abeyance.
[X] Talk scheduling: How would everyone feel about spending Saturdays hanging out and/or doing administrative stuff as needed and Sundays taking trips outside the city for cleansing, recruitment, etc?
[X] Shiogama girls: Check in, ask how they've been. Ask if they're interested in private discussion tomorrow afternoon or being introduced to other groups around town sometime afternoon.

[x] After Madoka and Sayaka leave:
-[x] Observe that tonight might be the happiest you've ever seen Madoka.
--[x] Madoka has self-worth issues, right? She needs to feel like she's contributing, and she doubts herself and needs friends to support her and convince her that she's doing okay... And, it seems like Homura being around has been helping with it too. It's good to see.
---[X] Let/cue Mami to comment on that, too. (Establish that this isn't just something you're coming up with)
----[X] Even Sayaka seems to think so -- she spent most of tonight giving Homura opportunities to be around Madoka.

Slight alteration, plus included Catgirl's section into the vote.
 
Kaizuki said:
But that's not what I see here. What I see her is showing her how to write a good letter of recommendation, when the other times she has tried, it hasn't worked out.
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Finally. Thank you.
Kaizuki said:
There are, I am sure, ways to better instill that into a vote than what I've had so far.
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If you're not, in fact, actively opposed to telling Mami what we're trying to do, then yes, there are almost certainly better ways to do it. They mostly start with actually telling her what we're trying to do and then showing her how.
The Phoenixian said:
[X] Prepare enchanted grief for the use later in the evening, as you have time.
-[X] Use enchanted grief to test your and Sayaka's enchantments with a mind reading device.
-[X] Take a moment to test an enchanted grief marble with a clear seed you haven't pushed your own magic into yet. See if it plebs.
-[X] See if you can recycle enchanted grief from a griefhaxed item by using the edge of your range to refresh it.
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This is not the fucking time. We have the enchantment booster out. We have Mami focused on teaching. We have Sayaka here to help us test; not only does Sayaka have the mind-reading powers, she can survive finding something bad while testing mind-reading on us. We have Homura here to share ideas with. And we're all focused on enchanting. We repeatedly voted to spend this time preparing defenses for Tokyo and we aligned everything to support that as well as possible. We might need those defenses soon and this grief stuff doesn't have to happen in this update or even today. If you had brought this up while we were making breakfast tomorrow I'd have been all on board. But right now? Your random attempt to force your pet project through is inefficient, badly-timed, and disruptive. It undermines our ability to trust that plans we make will be followed through on. After all, what does voting for plans matter if @The Phoenixian is just going to ignore the plan completely and waste all the setup on forcing through their own whims the instant they have a chance?

Oh, and even if you were doing this at the right time, the vote sucks anyway; you need to be more explicit about using only enchanted grief for griefhax so you don't waste even more better-spent time if you miscalculate and we can't make enough enchanted grief to test your ideas.
The Phoenixian said:
----[X] Even Sayaka seems to think so -- she spent most of tonight giving Homura opportunities to be around Madoka.
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We do not want Homura thinking that Sayaka is trying to get her and Madoka romantically entangled; she's not going to be able to handle that and our support simultaneously. The thread has been focusing almost exclusively on the romantic aspects of Sayaka's actions so that directive is necessary to avoid confusion. Also, in cutting that line out you missed a bunch of high-level reasoning and evidence. The rest of this is at least not actively wrong, but the quixotic quest for word-count has, as usual, fucked all sorts of things up.
The Phoenixian said:
[X] Dinner!
[X] Look for opportunities to give Homura and Madoka time to themselves.
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You've completely lost the "refine politics approach" discussion. There's a point that needs to be made there: "Leave corrupt power in charge or overthrow them and build new power structure" is a false dilemma and will cripple our ability to think about it. We need to maintain that "we're not against the Tokyo Council" mindset that Hitomi pointed out.
The Phoenixian said:
[X] Shiogama girls: Check in, ask how they've been. Ask if they're interested in private discussion tomorrow afternoon or being introduced to other groups around town sometime afternoon.
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I'd suggest not interrupting their dinner. We can do that with O&K because they know us better. Save it for sometime tomorrow.

edit:
Kaizuki said:
I'm not even voting for the topic we're discussing, I'm voting for an altered version of your vote -- which you've said nothing about.
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I actually put effort into writing votes that explain their own goals, motivations, and value analyses, so there wasn't a huge amount to say about the vote that wasn't already in it. But if you really need more:
  • Mami does need guidance. However, we also need to tell Brinapilot to try to give Mami that guidance. Mami is our peer. So just tell her what we think and work with her to figure something out. It's fucking weird to tell her to go make a heartfelt confession, but if she decides that she should but has trouble with it we can certainly help. So give her that opportunity by telling her what we think about Homura's problems.
  • I have repeatedly explained my point on politics, but I'll say it yet again so it's all in one place. "Overthrow or permit corruption" is a false dilemma. There's a middle ground: "If you misuse Clear Seeds, then either I or another legitimate governmental entity will make you regret it." Even if the Tokyo Council does need a round of deep cleaning, that does not necessarily mean that we have to completely obliterate it and start over.
  • On Homura: She needs to be told that people are her friends. She needs to be told that she has worth. She needs to be shown solid evidence of those two things. So I show her solid evidence of those two things.
  • Talking to Mami about this whole thing before we talk to Homura means that Mami will know where we're going with the whole thing. This will mean that she can act on her own initiative to work with us to achieve our higher-level goals for the conversation. This is why you give people goals instead of orders.
  • Specifically and explicitly focus on demonstrating to Homura that Madoka was happy tonight and that she was responsible for it.
  • Don't waste time on doing reasonable experiments at the wrong time. Save non-enchanting-related experiments and projects for times when it they wouldn't be wasting time that we've spent multiple votes optimizing for enchanting practice.
  • Share some of the thread's excellent ideas for enchanted items. Sayaka has all sorts of free time when she's bored in class, and Homura could probably stand to have something meditative to do at times. Giving them a big list of things to try would be productive and relaxing.
  • Don't interrupt people's dinner unless we're their friends and are allowed to troll them.

[x] Give Madoka and Homura some time alone together.
-[x] Talk to Mami a bit more about Homura. You think that Homura might not realize that people care about her and might not know what it feels like to have friends. Does Mami have any ideas for helping her with that? It feels weird to tell all your friends to just walk up and tell Homura that they care about her.

[x] Over dinner:
-[x] Have some fun brainstorming more defensive enchantments for people to try. Your friends can handle picking the good ideas out of the bad, so go nuts, be creative.

[x] Politics discussion:
-[x] Refine the "be kind to each other" statement - you do recognize that a functioning justice system is ultimately a threat of force; you have been completely explicit about your intent to drop the hammer on people that abuse Clear Seeds.
--[x] You'd just prefer less "20 angry magical girls at your front door" and more "modern policing organization".

[x] After Madoka and Sayaka leave:
-[x] Observe to Homura that tonight might be the happiest you've ever seen Madoka.
--[x] Madoka has self-worth issues, right? She needs to feel like she's contributing, and she doubts herself and needs friends to support her and convince her that she's doing okay.
--[x] Homura's been helping with both of those. You think that Madoka finds the politics really satisfying, and having Homura around seemed to make Madoka happy. It's good to see.
--[x] Homura needs to know that this isn't something you're coming up with yourself, so:
---[X] Give Mami an opening to chime in, following your earlier conversation.
---[X] Point out some of what Sayaka was doing. *Don't* suggest romance, but even small details would be strong evidence of Sayaka's trust and would help Homura believe that she's the one responsible for Madoka's happiness tonight.

[x] After you finish talking to Homura:
-[x] TO THE INTERNETS

A subtlety on the "Madoka finds politics satisfying" thing - it could be argued that we should attribute that more directly to Homura, thank Homura or something. I believe that this would actually be a bad idea. It'd be hard for Homura to avoid taking it as "I've been getting it wrong this whole time" or "I was just getting in the way". I don't know if there's a good way to get around that. Thank Homura for helping with the writeup? I don't think that it's quite valuable enough to be worth pursuing anyway; it'd mostly just distract from Homura having friends and stuff.
 
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Yeah, uh, word-count limits are in place to keep the thread from dictating every line of every post or trying to fit fifty bajillion updates of action into a single update. If they actively interfere with describing the intended action, then ignore the bloody word-count.

Right, @Firnagzen
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on May 16, 2019 at 6:11 AM, finished with 152945 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X] Dinner!
    [X] Look for opportunities to give Homura and Madoka time to themselves.
    [X] Prepare enchanted grief for the use later in the evening, as you have time.
    -[X] Use enchanted grief to test your and Sayaka's enchantments with a mind reading device.
    -[X] Take a moment to test an enchanted grief marble with a clear seed you haven't pushed your own magic into yet. See if it plebs.
    -[X] See if you can recycle enchanted grief from a griefhaxed item by using the edge of your range to refresh it.
    [X] Internet vote in abeyance.
    [X] Talk scheduling: How would everyone feel about spending Saturdays hanging out and/or doing administrative stuff as needed and Sundays taking trips outside the city for cleansing, recruitment, etc?
    [X] Shiogama girls: Check in, ask how they've been. Ask if they're interested in private discussion tomorrow afternoon or being introduced to other groups around town sometime afternoon.
    [x] After Madoka and Sayaka leave:
    -[x] Observe that tonight might be the happiest you've ever seen Madoka.
    --[x] Madoka has self-worth issues, right? She needs to feel like she's contributing, and she doubts herself and needs friends to support her and convince her that she's doing okay... And, it seems like Homura being around has been helping with it too. It's good to see.
    ---[X] Let/cue Mami to comment on that, too. (Establish that this isn't just something you're coming up with)
    ----[X] Even Sayaka seems to think so -- she spent most of tonight giving Homura opportunities to be around Madoka.
    [x] Give Madoka and Homura some time alone together.
    -[x] Talk to Mami a bit more about Homura. You think that Homura might not realize that people care about her and might not know what it feels like to have friends. Does Mami have any ideas for helping her with that? It feels weird to tell all your friends to just walk up and tell Homura that they care about her.
    [x] Over dinner:
    -[x] Have some fun brainstorming more defensive enchantments for people to try. Your friends can handle picking the good ideas out of the bad, so go nuts, be creative.
    [x] Politics discussion
    -[x] Refine the "be kind to each other" statement - you do recognize that a functioning justice system is ultimately a threat of force; you have been completely explicit about your intent to drop the hammer on people that abuse Clear Seeds.
    --[x] You'd just prefer less "20 angry magical girls at your front door" and more "modern policing organization".
    [x] After Madoka and Sayaka leave:
    -[x] Observe to Homura that tonight might be the happiest you've ever seen Madoka.
    --[x] Madoka has self-worth issues, right? She needs to feel like she's contributing, and she doubts herself and needs friends to support her and convince her that she's doing okay.
    --[x] Homura's been helping with both of those. You think that Madoka finds the politics really satisfying, and having Homura around seemed to make Madoka happy. It's good to see.
    --[x] Homura needs to know that this isn't something you're coming up with yourself, so:
    ---[X] Give Mami an opening to chime in, following your earlier conversation.
    ---[X] Point out some of what Sayaka was doing. *Don't* suggest romance, but even small details would be strong evidence of Sayaka's trust and would help Homura believe that she's the one responsible for Madoka's happiness tonight.
    [x] After you finish talking to Homura:
    -[x] TO THE INTERNETS
    [x] Hug Mami
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Staff Notice: Announcing use of the ignore function falls under Rule 3.
Okay, right, as much as talking about the ignore function is frowned upon, at the moment keeping silent about it hinders actually accomplishing anything.

At the moment Veb is the only one giving me criticism, but I have zero interest wading through the insults to pick out what's actually worthwhile.

Could someone else rephrase/summarize?
 
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