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50% surcharge to construction costs, including time to build.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- Aotearoa
Gotta second this.
If anyone is interested in the All-10s Capital, the designs are something Galan was doodling with on his way back from Paddah and you can find them at the bottom of the page, here.
User:Alliterate/2325 Aggadah Refit - To Boldly Go
Project Bastion, perhaps.
As other have noted, H10 basically requires a bit of a cheat to reflect Paddah tech, with @OneirosTheWriter blessing to swap 1D for 1H to reflect Magan Chalal heavy duty engineering practises. Gotta say H9 still isn't overly efficient for ships of this size, either, and the stat-swap is mostly to keep the fun all-same-stat capship design conceit going:
| C | S | H | L | P | D |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 |
| br Cost | sr Cost | Weight | Build Time | Officer | Enlisted | Technicians |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 280 | 190-200 | 2773kt | 4.5y | 6 | 7 | 6 |
Ked Paddah New Cap 2328 Survey | Evasion Chance: 3.13% Warp Core Breach Chance: 36.00% | Parts: T4-T5 Spec Parts 2325-2344 (1/8/2019, 2:14:59 PM)
C[10.04] S[10.01] H[9.22] L[10.10] P[10.13] D[11.18] | [276.34]br [187.80]sr | O[5.95] E[6.70] T[5.50] | [4 5/12]years
Including Survey Sensors.
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
1.5x SR, BR, and build time by default, with Rapid Prototyping tech that's coming up making it 1.25x.
Rapid Prototyping won't affect options we're voting on today.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Hmm.
Amby-A is pretty close to all-12s...
Hmm...
Amby-A is pretty close to all-12s...
Hmm...
- Location
- Over the Rainbow
I don't see anything in the options about the Cats doing prototyping--just that they'd need to borrow a berth for the initial build since they don't have their own 800kt berths for it, just like they'd need to do for an Oda-Gach refit.
Which isn't to say that they necessarily couldn't or wouldn't pay for the needed prototyping, just that's its not clear from the option presented that they are expecting to do so.
Regarding the likely limited production run, however, I agree that you are correct. Even at three Carbons the savings aren't really worth it without getting someone else to cover prototyping first. My vote has been edited to reflect this.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
On the whole I agree with SWB's priorities.
[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock
All this being said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Ked Peddah have a somewhat variant tech tree compared to us, probably including more safety equipment and hull reinforcement. Same goes for the ISC, who also have a safety focus and also have a "flat stat" ship design focus. Our designs make it harder and less cost-effective to add Hull than to add Shielding, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone else is playing by exactly the same rulebook.
"Which will make the Romulan and Klingon spies all the MORE confused at how a few of our smallest ships have fabulous rainbow paint! Clearly, it must serve a military purpose, and getting infiltrators into the stealth field generator chamber is all the MORE important now!"
[grins evilly]
[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock
Ahem.
All this being said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Ked Peddah have a somewhat variant tech tree compared to us, probably including more safety equipment and hull reinforcement. Same goes for the ISC, who also have a safety focus and also have a "flat stat" ship design focus. Our designs make it harder and less cost-effective to add Hull than to add Shielding, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone else is playing by exactly the same rulebook.
Leslie:
"Which will make the Romulan and Klingon spies all the MORE confused at how a few of our smallest ships have fabulous rainbow paint! Clearly, it must serve a military purpose, and getting infiltrators into the stealth field generator chamber is all the MORE important now!"
[grins evilly]
- Location
- Aotearoa
[X][PRIORITY] Star-Kin: Refit Monastery as Long-Term
[X][PRIORITY] Caldonians: Refit old Science Cruisers as Long-Term
[X][PRIORITY] Orions: Move Inc Crew/Res to Medium Term
[X][PRIORITY] STO: Increase BR/SR as Medium-Term
[X][ORION] Adopt Project Emerald as a new light frigate, capable of being built in 600kt berths. (+10 pp)
[X][ORION] Adopt Kepler as a new scout frigate, building in 2.25 years, with crew cost O2 E3 T4.
[X][ORION] Adopt Project Greenleaf as a new skirmish frigate, with build time 2 years, cost 80-85 BR & 55-65 SR, and crew cost O1 E2 T2. (+10 pp)
[X][ORION] Wait to refit existing cruisers
[X][ORION] Support development of a Miranda-B variant (-10 pp cost to a Miranda-B refit, Starfleet must refit and transfer one Miranda-B to the Orion Union as soon as the project is complete, in an Orion berth if necessary, but at Starfleet expense).
[X][LAIO] Support the construction of a shipyard. (-11 pp, Laio Shipyard with 1x2mt berth will be built at Laian)
[X][FRIGATE] Adopt Project Emerald (-5 pp for facilitating technical assistance, prototype begins production in 2325Q3 at Bidva, -70 br, -55 sr OR additional -15 pp to arrange a resource transfer from the Honiani)
[X][FRIGATE] Back the Miranda-B project (-2 pp cost to a Miranda-B refit, Starfleet must refit and transfer a Miranda-B to the Laians as soon as the project is complete (in a Laian berth if necessary, but at Starfleet expense))
[X][FRIGATE] Transfer mothballed Amarki frigates to the Laians (-2 pp for facilitating minor technical assistance; Laio acquires 2 Brieca-As and scraps three frigates, in 2325Q1, reduce the br & sr cost of any other [FRIGATE] option taken by 90 br & 55 sr (or additional pp cost by 15 pp))
[][STO] Adopt the Torqui Leb Lagan Flight II (C7 S7 H4 L6 P7 D7, 200 br 140 sr 6O 6E 5T, 35 br & 35 sr refit cost) and refit in 2329
[X][STO] Scrap the Torqui Leb Lagans and replace with three Renaissance-A.
[X][CAT] Adopt Project Carbon (Requires shipyard upgrades to produce at home, -10 pp to rent an Orion berth for the initial build)
[X][BETZA] Rename the class the Bird of Paradise, as an analog to the Klingon Bird-of-Prey but for much more peaceful ends.
[X][PRIORITY] Caldonians: Refit old Science Cruisers as Long-Term
[X][PRIORITY] Orions: Move Inc Crew/Res to Medium Term
[X][PRIORITY] STO: Increase BR/SR as Medium-Term
[X][ORION] Adopt Project Emerald as a new light frigate, capable of being built in 600kt berths. (+10 pp)
[X][ORION] Adopt Kepler as a new scout frigate, building in 2.25 years, with crew cost O2 E3 T4.
[X][ORION] Adopt Project Greenleaf as a new skirmish frigate, with build time 2 years, cost 80-85 BR & 55-65 SR, and crew cost O1 E2 T2. (+10 pp)
[X][ORION] Wait to refit existing cruisers
[X][ORION] Support development of a Miranda-B variant (-10 pp cost to a Miranda-B refit, Starfleet must refit and transfer one Miranda-B to the Orion Union as soon as the project is complete, in an Orion berth if necessary, but at Starfleet expense).
[X][LAIO] Support the construction of a shipyard. (-11 pp, Laio Shipyard with 1x2mt berth will be built at Laian)
[X][FRIGATE] Adopt Project Emerald (-5 pp for facilitating technical assistance, prototype begins production in 2325Q3 at Bidva, -70 br, -55 sr OR additional -15 pp to arrange a resource transfer from the Honiani)
[X][FRIGATE] Back the Miranda-B project (-2 pp cost to a Miranda-B refit, Starfleet must refit and transfer a Miranda-B to the Laians as soon as the project is complete (in a Laian berth if necessary, but at Starfleet expense))
[X][FRIGATE] Transfer mothballed Amarki frigates to the Laians (-2 pp for facilitating minor technical assistance; Laio acquires 2 Brieca-As and scraps three frigates, in 2325Q1, reduce the br & sr cost of any other [FRIGATE] option taken by 90 br & 55 sr (or additional pp cost by 15 pp))
[][STO] Adopt the Torqui Leb Lagan Flight II (C7 S7 H4 L6 P7 D7, 200 br 140 sr 6O 6E 5T, 35 br & 35 sr refit cost) and refit in 2329
[X][STO] Scrap the Torqui Leb Lagans and replace with three Renaissance-A.
[X][CAT] Adopt Project Carbon (Requires shipyard upgrades to produce at home, -10 pp to rent an Orion berth for the initial build)
[X][BETZA] Rename the class the Bird of Paradise, as an analog to the Klingon Bird-of-Prey but for much more peaceful ends.
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Mmmmm, I suppose it's hard to tell who prototypes the ship. If the Yrillians are eating the cost then it's better, but I definitely wouldn't want the Orions to do so, not when they're already operating the Kepler. In some cases we've had multiple polities prototype a class, which is where my reticence comes from.
The multiple prototypes i recall are for the JAFFA where the apatia version needed one due their queen based crews.
- Location
- Over the Rainbow
Is there a reason most people aren't backing giving a Miranda-B to the Orions?
I wouldn't be surprised if the Yrillians had to do separate prototyping, given that they need larger decks to accommodate their greater stature.
In light of that, I wouldn't count on their prototyping qualifying for everyone else... but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Yrillians had to do separate prototyping, given that they need larger decks to accommodate their greater stature.
In light of that, I wouldn't count on their prototyping qualifying for everyone else... but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
The Union Navy has three Mekpali's that they want to replace (as per anon_user), as those things are super-unreliable. The Molhanes are fragile and don't really have a frigate role, but I think they'll probably be slower to replace them. Regarding the Miranda-B, it's a good combat frigate on the cheap. I would say a comparable frigate force to the Union Navy's 14 legacy frigates would be 2 scouts, 2-4 skirmishers, 4 general frigates, 4 combat frigates, but those combat frigates could simply be general frigates instead. I guess I don't mind having them build the Miri-B since we'll be giving one away to them which is a resource-saving measure. Sure, vote will be adjusted.
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- Location
- Tarn-Vedra
[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
For anyone interested, the Miranda-B is likely to be a 20br 10sr refit that adds +1C +2S +1P +3D. We could go for an extra +1 to a stat, but that likely increases the refit cost by 10sr. The refit's main benefits are in how super cheap it is, and how Starfleet + Member Fleets have a ton of Mirandas that could benefit.
- Location
- Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I like the Miranda-B as a concept quite a bit, but I'm concerned about it's future refitability in the event of new builds, especially for fleets like the Laio, where they're going to need that ship to last a long time in service.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Firstly, we may have a war blow up in the next 2-3 years, so we do need some short-term emphasis on numbers and short term capability even at the expense of long term optimization.
Secondly, one of the Miranda's advantages is that the crew cost is so low that it matters less if it can't be refitted a third time into the Miranda-C. With a cruiser of the same vintage it'd be a bigger deal because it would permanently lock up the entire crew that could otherwise be fitted into a modern frigate, but that's not the Laio's situation.
I mean, you're not wrong to care about this, but "what if the Laio just build lots of brand new frigates that cost something like 200 resource points each" isn't necessarily a very satifactory alternative from the Laio viewpoint.
Keeping the crew cost low makes a Miranda-C difficult.
But keep in mind we don't really get better than the Miranda-B in the short-term.
Project Emerald (hope whoever builds this comes up with a decent class name) is C3 S3 H2 L4 P3 D5. That's +1LP and -1CS compared to a Miranda-B, for +5 SR and -10 BR. Or specifically, it's the exact same stat total. A module version is +10 SR and -5 BR vs the Miri-B and gives it +1 stat on the Miranda-B. There's likely a decent phaser array refit for Emerald, but not a huge difference, maybe +1CS with a S module?
The projected Mielab-A is C3 S6 H2 L3 P2 D5, or +2S -1C for +15 SR over a Miranda-B. +1 stat for 15 SR.
That means the Miranda-B is directly competitive with the other ships that can fit in its berth as of 2326 build year, despite being a refit of a last century ship.
Until 2327/2328 we won't be able to start on a ship that directly outcompetes the Miranda-B, and it will be at least 5 years in research and prototyping, so 2332+ before we have a decent cost-efficient replacement.
But keep in mind we don't really get better than the Miranda-B in the short-term.
Project Emerald (hope whoever builds this comes up with a decent class name) is C3 S3 H2 L4 P3 D5. That's +1LP and -1CS compared to a Miranda-B, for +5 SR and -10 BR. Or specifically, it's the exact same stat total. A module version is +10 SR and -5 BR vs the Miri-B and gives it +1 stat on the Miranda-B. There's likely a decent phaser array refit for Emerald, but not a huge difference, maybe +1CS with a S module?
The projected Mielab-A is C3 S6 H2 L3 P2 D5, or +2S -1C for +15 SR over a Miranda-B. +1 stat for 15 SR.
That means the Miranda-B is directly competitive with the other ships that can fit in its berth as of 2326 build year, despite being a refit of a last century ship.
Until 2327/2328 we won't be able to start on a ship that directly outcompetes the Miranda-B, and it will be at least 5 years in research and prototyping, so 2332+ before we have a decent cost-efficient replacement.
- Location
- Aotearoa
You're not wrong about the Miranda-B, of course. But I feel obliged to point out that that specific projected Mielab-A is aimed at minimising refit costs for the Amarki Arsenal scout/skirmish frigate (15BR/10SR), not getting the max economically possible stats out of the frame on an 'Export Order New Build' model- a design goal that I've not explored.
(Edit: Definitely can fit +1L for L4 into the 600kt frame)
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I thought the Sydraxians were buying this design, hence the prototype costs were already paid?
fasquardon
Either this or that legendary traveling designer of the Oberth and the BoP has a much less exciting cousin who hangs around Paddah to intervene whenever a ship threatens to become bumpy.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Thinking about the Magen Chalal and their current priorities.
These are great! Not just because there are a bunch of Galan designs here.
However, from what I recall the last time I saw the MWCD build sheet, they have a very large crew surplus, over 30O/35E/35T IIRC, which will only get larger with five years of refits (meaning very few new builds). A surplus probably growing even larger, when followed by another five years on an expensive new Capital ship prototype.
@OneirosTheWriter or @anon_user
I wonder if there's anything they could or should be doing with that surplus? Can they shift incomes from crew to Infrastructure, or similar?
Edit- they are also pretty strong candidates for building a Kepler Fleet Scout, no?
| Ked Paddah | Aggadah Refits | Orah Refits | All-10s Capital |
However, from what I recall the last time I saw the MWCD build sheet, they have a very large crew surplus, over 30O/35E/35T IIRC, which will only get larger with five years of refits (meaning very few new builds). A surplus probably growing even larger, when followed by another five years on an expensive new Capital ship prototype.
@OneirosTheWriter or @anon_user
I wonder if there's anything they could or should be doing with that surplus? Can they shift incomes from crew to Infrastructure, or similar?
Edit- they are also pretty strong candidates for building a Kepler Fleet Scout, no?
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cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
I guess we won't be pulling a canon Federation which was probably rolling around with a Miranda-D given that they were still building the thing post DS9.
Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
Fluffwise, couldn't we design a frigate of the same tonnage but give it completely different subframes and internals and say it has the hullform of a Miranda saucer with shiny new nacelles/rollbar?
All we need is perceived need for more of the hull.
Is that likely- no. We can do better with the rules as they currently exist in this quest.
But the canon Federation never seemed to decommission anything - they were still sending in Soyuz class vessels refitted by sticking the biggest phaser cannon they could power in the Doninion War.
Is that likely- no. We can do better with the rules as they currently exist in this quest.
But the canon Federation never seemed to decommission anything - they were still sending in Soyuz class vessels refitted by sticking the biggest phaser cannon they could power in the Doninion War.