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Dragon Ball: After the End

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gamer50018 said:
And hopefully, she won't, but if she has any such spell she'll cast it whether we monologue or not. May as well give it an old fashioned try, and see if Kakara can pull something out off her mind like we've done in the past.
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I'm just not seeing what a longer speech gives us here. Time is our enemy, and we should be accomplishing things as quickly as possible to avoid allowing our prediction's accuracy to diminish.

EDIT: That said, for those voting for the rebuttal, I don't believe subvotes are being consolidated by poptart, so y'all probably want to fix that shit.
 
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thamuzz said:
I disagree with your assessment. Jaffur was willing to consider the possibility of executing her over murdering her. When push came to shove, he defaulted to murder.
That's one of the critical moments that screwed us up during the fight.
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ok, let me rephrase.

I think we (Kakara) would be able to convince him to spare her once our victory is certain and complete. Right now he wants to kill her, but i think we have a good chance to change his mind if we make a good argument for it. He at least knows we'll try.
thamuzz said:
Pragmatism dictates that the danger Dandeer poses outweighs an potential utility keep her around offers. As evidence, he can point to Dazarel. We spared that monster and it bit us in the ass hard.
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We actually don't know what Dazarel has actually done. It's possible he didn't actually help her that much. Also he's still sealed, and Dandeer should not be capable to unseal him for a long time. There was somewhere between 150 and 300 billion ki of power in that seal after all.

And even Dandeer is not stupid enough to unseal him and left him uncontrolled.

ANd about the danger of keeping her alive... once she's sealed and has NO access to her powers, what is she left with?
She still knows more about magic then anyone else, and it's possible that even with her powers sealed she might be capable of helping research the theory behind better, stronger wards.

Have at least 3 Super Saiyans (or even better, Spirit Saiyan Kakara) keep her under their sight whenever we need to give her access to her powers to cast a spell, and she is virtually harmless.

And once we get access to ssj2 and/or more ssj, she becomes less dangerous.

I'm sure we could think of others precautions, if it ever comes to this.
 
[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions

Pretty much any plan that doesn't default to "The Plan" immediately. Screw you future us, you can't tell us what to do! We'll make our own future, with all you can eat buffet and the Misfits.
 
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On an unrelated note, do people want to vote for our last words before becoming a shade? I'm thinking Ki-Ko-Fuck Yourself, but I'm open to suggestions.
 
So, I've seen people saying they're leery of Ghost Kakara Adventures II: Galactic Boogaloo, and some (not all, but some) of the reasoning is that we can't realistically train:
-Multi-Form
-Overall Power Level
-New Transformations
-Possibly/Probably anything Oozaru

Now, @PoptartProdigy can confirm or deny the following, but broadly speaking these are things I think we could learn about and/or train as Ghost Kakara:
-Sight
-Psionics
-Magic (especially non-Exile magic)
-State of the wider galaxy
-Fate of the Namekian people
-Rumors of 17 and 18
-Ki Techniques
-Fighting Style (practice existing style)
-Fighting Style (something new we've never seen)
-Jaffur's Trick
-Tabe's Trick
-Ki Control
-Ki Sense
-Communication
-Deception
-Other social/mental skills I'm not thinking of
-Meditation
-Spirit Bomb
-Ki TK/TP
 
Inserted tally.

Rebuttal Monologue now leads the vote as long as @PoptartProdigy takes the concept of consolidation into account. As I do not trust them to do this, CONSOLIDATE.NOW.
Adhoc vote count started by gamer50018 on Sep 21, 2018 at 10:59 AM, finished with 90 posts and 34 votes.
  • [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Talk it out
    - [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
    - [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
    - [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
    - [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
    - [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.​
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
Click to expand...
 
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KnightDisciple said:
So, I've seen people saying they're leery of Ghost Kakara Adventures II: Galactic Boogaloo, and some (not all, but some) of the reasoning is that we can't realistically train:
-Multi-Form
-Overall Power Level
-New Transformations
-Possibly/Probably anything Oozaru

Now, @PoptartProdigy can confirm or deny the following, but broadly speaking these are things I think we could learn about and/or train as Ghost Kakara:
-Sight
-Psionics
-Magic (especially non-Exile magic)
-State of the wider galaxy
-Fate of the Namekian people
-Rumors of 17 and 18
-Ki Techniques
-Fighting Style (practice existing style)
-Fighting Style (something new we've never seen)
-Jaffur's Trick
-Tabe's Trick
-Ki Control
-Ki Sense
-Communication
-Deception
-Other social/mental skills I'm not thinking of
-Meditation
-Spirit Bomb
-Ki TK/TP
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You forgot "getting new dragonballs."

Also Hit's time-skip, although that could go under new fighting style I suppose.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Gore17 on Sep 21, 2018 at 11:06 AM, finished with 92 posts and 34 votes.
  • [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Talk it out
    - [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
    - [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
    - [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
    - [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
    - [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
Click to expand...
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by gamer50018 on Sep 21, 2018 at 11:12 AM, finished with 96 posts and 34 votes.
  • [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] Talk it out
    - [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
    - [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
    - [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
    - [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
    - [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.​
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
Click to expand...
 
gamer50018 said:
Seriously, guys. Consolidate. NOW. Before our glorious QM can fuck us over again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

gamer50018 said:
Rebuttal Monologue now leads the vote as long as @PoptartProdigy takes the concept of consolidation into account. As I do not trust them to do this, CONSOLIDATE.NOW.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
please drop the passive-aggressive tone. the thread has just calmed down and we're in a delicate situation, there is no need for it.

I assume Poptart will consolidate votes for the same plan (say, votes for Rebuttal monologue with all the subpoints listed after the plan name and those who vote for the plan without the list under it), but it wouldn't make sense to consolidate, say, Rebuttal monologue and Rebuttal monologue with vicious additions. The difference is enough to merit a different plan name after all.


also, to @Deathbybunnies @WorthyAlchemist? @Doomed Wombat
@QTesseract @thamuzz

i don't think we CAN sense the fleet.

First, they're too far
Second, their ships likely have stealth technology like those of the scouts.

We'd probably need Machine sense to have a chance
chryssalideater said:
Also Hit's time-skip, although that could go under new fighting style I suppose.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
well, he's in an other universe. I think we can forget about Universe 6 for a long time





[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.


[x] Rebuttal Monologue
 
Pittauro said:
please drop the passive-aggressive tone. the thread has just calmed down and we're in a delicate situation, there is no need for it.

I assume Poptart will consolidate votes for the same plan (say, votes for Rebuttal monologue with all the subpoints listed after the plan name and those who vote for the plan without the list under it), but it wouldn't make sense to consolidate, say, Rebuttal monologue and Rebuttal monologue with vicious additions. The difference is enough to merit a different plan name after all.


also, to @Deathbybunnies @WorthyAlchemist? @Doomed Wombat
@QTesseract @thamuzz

i don't think we CAN sense the fleet.

First, they're too far
Second, their ships likely have stealth technology like those of the scouts.

We'd probably need Machine sense to have a chance

well, he's in an other universe. I think we can forget about Universe 6 for a long time





[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.


[x] Rebuttal Monologue
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Point. Still, can you guys please change your votes before it gets locked? Please?
 
Pittauro said:
i don't think we CAN sense the fleet.

First, they're too far
Second, their ships likely have stealth technology like those of the scouts.

We'd probably need Machine sense to have a chance
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The main fleet is unlikely to be outfitted in the same manner as the scout ship, which was designed for a role where stealth was paramount. It will not be similarly shielded. Realistically, we'd be trying to sense Tamar.

It's a bit of a longshot, but it costs us nothing to try and I think it's doable with a Willpower Push. I think it's a reasonable addition to pretty much any other plan.

Not that it matters, since people seem to not care about it.
KnightDisciple said:
So, I've seen people saying they're leery of Ghost Kakara Adventures II: Galactic Boogaloo, and some (not all, but some) of the reasoning is that we can't realistically train:
-Multi-Form
-Overall Power Level
-New Transformations
-Possibly/Probably anything Oozaru

Now, @PoptartProdigy can confirm or deny the following, but broadly speaking these are things I think we could learn about and/or train as Ghost Kakara:
-Sight
-Psionics
-Magic (especially non-Exile magic)
-State of the wider galaxy
-Fate of the Namekian people
-Rumors of 17 and 18
-Ki Techniques
-Fighting Style (practice existing style)
-Fighting Style (something new we've never seen)
-Jaffur's Trick
-Tabe's Trick
-Ki Control
-Ki Sense
-Communication
-Deception
-Other social/mental skills I'm not thinking of
-Meditation
-Spirit Bomb
-Ki TK/TP
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Training is likely to be affected in several areas, sure, but I'm more worried about a) running around at a 5% PL - that's much less safe, and limits what we can achieve quite a it. And b) being Sealed whilst we're running around as a Shade might lead to Karen becoming a separate personality, like Jaron. Which I really, really, really do not want.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by gamer50018 on Sep 21, 2018 at 11:21 AM, finished with 100 posts and 34 votes.
  • [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] Talk it out
    - [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
    - [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
    - [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
    - [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
    - [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.​
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue​
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Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, just to clarify, but does "long-odds" mean "impossible" or "very unlikely"?
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You have the modifiers at play; you know exactly what it means.
Simon_Jester said:
You're not wrong that exact modifiers aren't always things the players should know. At the same time...

Put it this way- in a world where the objective outcomes of our decisions depend on literally rolling dice, not having a reasonably clear idea what some of the pertinent die roll modifiers are is equivalent to being completely in the dark about whether our actions are, on balance, likely to succeed or fail.

Which isn't even a realistic constraint on player knowledge, because a character always has access to a wealth of information about the situation they're in that we as players remote-controlling Kakara through the foggy lens of a series of update posts never can. We don't know literally everything about the game system, and there are all sorts of information mechanically relevant that you have good cause to keep secret. But to some extent, knowing facts from the game system is meant to be a proxy for our ability to role-play characters who at least roughly understand how their own abilities work.

Like, we don't have any experiential sense for how easy or hard it is to perform an Instant Transmission. All we really know is that Goku made it look pretty easy on TV. We don't really know how much Kakara's personal dislike for Dandeer impairs her ability to speak persuasively, but Kakara herself might have a rough sense of it. Kakara's seen Dandeer's body language, heard the intonations of her voice, and frankly probably has better interpersonal skills than any of us quest voters with which to make her judgment calls, and can probably put a 'number' to "so, how hard a sell is Dandeer, anyway" far more effectively than we could do alone.

...

Giving the players a number to associate with the vague, narrative feelings they have about the world they're in is often a very useful proxy for all these subtle questions of detailed knowledge that by the nature of things a gamemaster cannot answer comprehensively. As in... MADE UP NUMBERS FOLLOW

Example 1

Being able to say "Using IT to disengage from a duel, at your present skill level, gives you a +50 on the opposed die roll to disengage, but only that" gives players a clear idea that they're likely to succeed against an equally skilled opponent, but that an opponent who hilariously outclasses them in skill, it might well not work.

Conversely, NOT knowing that might lead players to intuitively assume that unless the enemy has such a high power level that they can just tsew a fairly long distance faster than you can snap your fingers to your forehead and wrinkle your brow in concentration, IT enables practically automatic combat disengagement, even from a far more skilled but no more powerful opponent. Which is the assumption I (wrongly) made intuitively at times while we were discussing the fight-Yammar votes. And this led both to an increase in my salt and to a MUCH greater level of confusion and alienation for me when I turned out to be wrong in my intuitive (delusional) hypothesis about the underlying mechanics of Kakara's reality. I was doing the equivalent of assuming the universe ran on Aristotelean physics rather than Newtonian or Einsteinian. More information would have changed that and reduced the confusion.

And the players knowing this? It doesn't really hurt gameplay. Kakara, in-character, has a very good idea of how hard it is to teleport and how fast her opponent in a fight can move in reaction to her attempt. She knows that sometimes escaping by teleport is easy, sometimes it's hard, and in extreme cases it may not be possible even against a comparably powerful enemy, at least until/unless she trains a lot harder at rapid combat teleportation. Us knowing that fact too, in the form of "it confers a +50 on an opposed die roll to see if you can get out without another round of fighting" or some such helps tremendously by allowing us to align our expectations about reality with what Kakara already knows.

Example 2

We don't have the faintest idea how much things like "hatred" and "mild loyalty" affect a Communications check. Like, not just that we can't predict in particular exactly how much Dandeer hates us or Maya loves us, which are admittedly hard things to measure IRL, but we have no clue what these things do in general. Kakara, realistically, has a fairly good idea how other people's attitudes affect her ability to talk to them and convince them of things in general or she couldn't be Grand Mistress of the Communicative Arts like she is.

So again, there's good reason for us to know enough about how the mechanics work to say:

"Well, when making a Communications check you have to eat a -50 or more penalty if you're trying to convince someone to do something wildly out of line with what they think the situation justifies, and another -50 or more if it's grossly contrary to their own interests, and another -60 to -80 if they... [checks table] "actively loathe" or "harbor mortal hatred" for you, and another -30 if you hate them back, so... [maths] crapbaskets, we'd be up against something like a -200 penalty to talk Dandeer into surrendering BEFORE any other modifiers apply, which they probably do, we don't know. Whereas it'd be more like -90 to -110 plus other mystery modifiers, if we were trying to convince her to do something consistent with her own interests. Like "not let Jaron or Jaffur die." Maybe even more favorable than that if pushing the family button is actually bringing up a core interest for her which we THINK it is."

The ability to do that kind of back-of-the-envelope math is critical as a proxy for the player's in-character ability to do things like read body language, remember all the information conveyed in conversations that took place off-screen, and in general see more details of a situation than the players can through the limited pipeline of information directly passed to us by the QM.

It serves an important mechanical purpose, and our gameplay keeps tripping up over the lack of that mechanism.

I get that there's a lot of facts you can't share or prefer not to share, but from the sound of it, you actually DO have a lot of consistent mechanical rules that apply to everyone behind the scenes. And our not knowing them at all except for the core mechanic of "whatever happens comes down to opposed d100 die rolls plus a string of modifiers" is constantly handicapping us in the same way that a blindfolded man lurching around a room and clumsily groping his way toward the exit is handicapped.

And likely to knock things over or suffer self-inflicted wounds by mistake.

...

There are very few successful dice-based RPG systems that work on the principle of keeping ALL the rolls, ALL the character sheets with attached statlines, ALL the modifiers that apply, secret and behind the GM screen.

Because that leaves the players trying to behave as if they live in a diceless narrative RPG (where the sole factors determining the outcome of their actions are the GM's intuitions and the players' persuasiveness)... While in fact they're playing a game where dice rolls are comparable in effect and significance to GM intuitions, sometimes MORE powerful, and where player persuasiveness matters a lot less.

Honestly, this has all the makings of a good dice-based RPG system. To the extent that were I Akira Toriyama, and if someone handed me this system's rules, I'd seriously consider licensing the RPG rights to Dragonball to you (yes, I know, it's been done). But in most, though not all, good dice-based RPG systems, the players may not know everything about any given situation, and they may not know all the modifiers that apply to every die roll... But they do know many of the details about how the system works.
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I always know that I can count on you for a detailed accounting of your thoughts. :D Thanks!
thamuzz said:
I have thoughts on this. I my suggested strategy to go forward with would be:
1) Stop invistexting the dice rolls we see. Spoilering the rolls is perfectly fine.
2) Don't condense it down to the last roll.
3) Show us the details of the modifiers that affect our rolls. Hiding DCs or bonuses our opponents get is okay, although giving ballparks would be nice.
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  1. I invisitext them for a very particular reason, but I have considered spoilering them at the end.
  2. Clarify this, please.
  3. I may make it more paradigmatically clear what certain kinds of situations do to your rolls, but I'm not going to provide detailed breakdowns of everything affecting every single roll, for, at the very least, the simple reason that I rule many of them from moment-to-moment. I may alter that so that some are more standardized.
KnightDisciple said:
Now, @PoptartProdigy can confirm or deny the following, but broadly speaking these are things I think we could learn about and/or train as Ghost Kakara:
-Sight
-Psionics
-Magic (especially non-Exile magic)
-State of the wider galaxy
-Fate of the Namekian people
-Rumors of 17 and 18
-Ki Techniques
-Fighting Style (practice existing style)
-Fighting Style (something new we've never seen)
-Jaffur's Trick
-Tabe's Trick
-Ki Control
-Ki Sense
-Communication
-Deception
-Other social/mental skills I'm not thinking of
-Meditation
-Spirit Bomb
-Ki TK/TP
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I shall neither confirm or deny. ;)
 
thamuzz said:
I was specifically thinking of the series of rolls that lead up to us getting sniped by Vegeta. IIRC, the roll that was invisitexed was the culmination of several rolls. Even summarizing it as "A lot rolls happened here" would be preferable in that example.
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Gotcha. That's covered both by my intent on summarizing more, and on having condensed the number of rolls I make in general.
 
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