- Location
- Italy
Of course poptart can choose how we altered it in that case.
Let's say, for example, total surrender and beg for forgiveness?
Dragon Ball: After the End
Let's say, for example, total surrender and beg for forgiveness?
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
...why would we even leave our body then.
We're going to lose this fight. That is inevitable. We're just checking a few things off the bucket list before we go.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I do appreciate length...
More seriously, I don't in particular care about canonicity, but the absolute non-canon works get lesser bonuses.
unObservant
Just drifting along, really
- Location
- USA
Shit, sorry. I was trying to vote by plan name and I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.
[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
[X] Make it about Jaffur
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
*re-reads post-*
Legitimately did not notice that while writing it. :lol
I mean, I'll leave it up, because hah, but I did not notice it, if you believe that.
*spit-take*I do appreciate length...
Legitimately did not notice that while writing it. :lol
I mean, I'll leave it up, because hah, but I did not notice it, if you believe that.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...THANK YOU THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING WE NEED FOR THE GAME TO NOT HAVE HORRIBLE CRASHES.
Because firstly, this does in fact suggest that convincing Dandeer to surrender is functionally impossible- MAYBE if we had Papata Fren's exploding crits we could pray for an exploding crit, but realistically, no. Even if possible it's such a Hail Mary that even with every bonus we have we'd probably have like a single-digit percent chance of accomplishing it. And we used up all our luck of THAT kind on Spirit Saiyan.
...
On the other hand, since Kakara HAS rolled a 200+ on a Communications check before. Her passing a check with, say, a -100 penalty on the die roll, or even a -150 penalty, is not inconceivable. So we now have some mechanical indication that it's not inconceivable that we could convince her of other things, which means it isn't necessarily a complete waste of time to talk to her at all.
This information helps us to make decisions based on the facts of how the game mechanics work to create Kakara's world, not just on our own intuitions of how Kakara's world works which are based on a very limited set of information, generally a narrow subset of what Kakara herself can see and know.
So this is super helpful, vastly more helpful than just saying "it's impossible." Thank you!
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I do realize that, which is why it's so troublesome. Because there are very good reasons for why the players should not know every modifier in advance of rolling the check to which said modifier applies. I'm revealing it now because of the obvious sensitivity on the subject, but it's a troubling precedent and I'm trying to find a good middle ground.
- Location
- Italy
To be fair convincing an hated enemy to surrender once she's won DOES sound like a legendary achievement.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, I think you're gonna need to append this as a subvote to your chosen options, 'cause as you've currently formatted it I can think of no conceivable way to determine whether it should be implemented or not. Well, other than "did it get an absolute majority of votes," but that seems like it would make a mess of things and almost certainly won't actually be reached.
deadcrystal
Slaaneshi Cultist
- Location
- The Warp
[X] Kill Dandeer
Excise the tumour killing everything worthwhile about the story.
Excise the tumour killing everything worthwhile about the story.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[x] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[x] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
Yes. Yessssss. Twist the knife.
-[x] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[x] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
Yes. Yessssss. Twist the knife.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, leaving aside any questions of "should" for the moment, you realize that we literally cannot do that right now, yes? Certainly not without a plan.
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
*Looks at list* I was all against talking to Dandeer but looking at this more closely... Fuuuuuuuuucccckkkkk Dandeer!
[x] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
And in case that doesn't shake it:
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
[x] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
And in case that doesn't shake it:
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
Last edited:
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
[X] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
@Deathbybunnies just to check what about the Senzu?
edit never mind
[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
@Deathbybunnies just to check what about the Senzu?
edit never mind
[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy, just to clarify, but does "long-odds" mean "impossible" or "very unlikely"?
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
While I'm not Poptart, from what they've said so far my impression is that getting Dandeer to surrender to us outright is impossible, whereas obtaining some lesser concession vis-a-vis being less evil is merely very unlikely. This seems fairly clear from the below quote (the bolded section in particular lays it out quite plainly):
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
You're not wrong that exact modifiers aren't always things the players should know. At the same time...
Put it this way- in a world where the objective outcomes of our decisions depend on literally rolling dice, not having a reasonably clear idea what some of the pertinent die roll modifiers are is equivalent to being completely in the dark about whether our actions are, on balance, likely to succeed or fail.
Which isn't even a realistic constraint on player knowledge, because a character always has access to a wealth of information about the situation they're in that we as players remote-controlling Kakara through the foggy lens of a series of update posts never can. We don't know literally everything about the game system, and there are all sorts of information mechanically relevant that you have good cause to keep secret. But to some extent, knowing facts from the game system is meant to be a proxy for our ability to role-play characters who at least roughly understand how their own abilities work.
Like, we don't have any experiential sense for how easy or hard it is to perform an Instant Transmission. All we really know is that Goku made it look pretty easy on TV. We don't really know how much Kakara's personal dislike for Dandeer impairs her ability to speak persuasively, but Kakara herself might have a rough sense of it. Kakara's seen Dandeer's body language, heard the intonations of her voice, and frankly probably has better interpersonal skills than any of us quest voters with which to make her judgment calls, and can probably put a 'number' to "so, how hard a sell is Dandeer, anyway" far more effectively than we could do alone.
...
Giving the players a number to associate with the vague, narrative feelings they have about the world they're in is often a very useful proxy for all these subtle questions of detailed knowledge that by the nature of things a gamemaster cannot answer comprehensively. As in... MADE UP NUMBERS FOLLOW
Example 1
Being able to say "Using IT to disengage from a duel, at your present skill level, gives you a +50 on the opposed die roll to disengage, but only that" gives players a clear idea that they're likely to succeed against an equally skilled opponent, but that an opponent who hilariously outclasses them in skill, it might well not work.
Conversely, NOT knowing that might lead players to intuitively assume that unless the enemy has such a high power level that they can just tsew a fairly long distance faster than you can snap your fingers to your forehead and wrinkle your brow in concentration, IT enables practically automatic combat disengagement, even from a far more skilled but no more powerful opponent. Which is the assumption I (wrongly) made intuitively at times while we were discussing the fight-Yammar votes. And this led both to an increase in my salt and to a MUCH greater level of confusion and alienation for me when I turned out to be wrong in my intuitive (delusional) hypothesis about the underlying mechanics of Kakara's reality. I was doing the equivalent of assuming the universe ran on Aristotelean physics rather than Newtonian or Einsteinian. More information would have changed that and reduced the confusion.
And the players knowing this? It doesn't really hurt gameplay. Kakara, in-character, has a very good idea of how hard it is to teleport and how fast her opponent in a fight can move in reaction to her attempt. She knows that sometimes escaping by teleport is easy, sometimes it's hard, and in extreme cases it may not be possible even against a comparably powerful enemy, at least until/unless she trains a lot harder at rapid combat teleportation. Us knowing that fact too, in the form of "it confers a +50 on an opposed die roll to see if you can get out without another round of fighting" or some such helps tremendously by allowing us to align our expectations about reality with what Kakara already knows.
Example 2
We don't have the faintest idea how much things like "hatred" and "mild loyalty" affect a Communications check. Like, not just that we can't predict in particular exactly how much Dandeer hates us or Maya loves us, which are admittedly hard things to measure IRL, but we have no clue what these things do in general. Kakara, realistically, has a fairly good idea how other people's attitudes affect her ability to talk to them and convince them of things in general or she couldn't be Grand Mistress of the Communicative Arts like she is.
So again, there's good reason for us to know enough about how the mechanics work to say:
"Well, when making a Communications check you have to eat a -50 or more penalty if you're trying to convince someone to do something wildly out of line with what they think the situation justifies, and another -50 or more if it's grossly contrary to their own interests, and another -60 to -80 if they... [checks table] "actively loathe" or "harbor mortal hatred" for you, and another -30 if you hate them back, so... [maths] crapbaskets, we'd be up against something like a -200 penalty to talk Dandeer into surrendering BEFORE any other modifiers apply, which they probably do, we don't know. Whereas it'd be more like -90 to -110 plus other mystery modifiers, if we were trying to convince her to do something consistent with her own interests. Like "not let Jaron or Jaffur die." Maybe even more favorable than that if pushing the family button is actually bringing up a core interest for her which we THINK it is."
The ability to do that kind of back-of-the-envelope math is critical as a proxy for the player's in-character ability to do things like read body language, remember all the information conveyed in conversations that took place off-screen, and in general see more details of a situation than the players can through the limited pipeline of information directly passed to us by the QM.
It serves an important mechanical purpose, and our gameplay keeps tripping up over the lack of that mechanism.
I get that there's a lot of facts you can't share or prefer not to share, but from the sound of it, you actually DO have a lot of consistent mechanical rules that apply to everyone behind the scenes. And our not knowing them at all except for the core mechanic of "whatever happens comes down to opposed d100 die rolls plus a string of modifiers" is constantly handicapping us in the same way that a blindfolded man lurching around a room and clumsily groping his way toward the exit is handicapped.
And likely to knock things over or suffer self-inflicted wounds by mistake.
...
There are very few successful dice-based RPG systems that work on the principle of keeping ALL the rolls, ALL the character sheets with attached statlines, ALL the modifiers that apply, secret and behind the GM screen.
Because that leaves the players trying to behave as if they live in a diceless narrative RPG (where the sole factors determining the outcome of their actions are the GM's intuitions and the players' persuasiveness)... While in fact they're playing a game where dice rolls are comparable in effect and significance to GM intuitions, sometimes MORE powerful, and where player persuasiveness matters a lot less.
Honestly, this has all the makings of a good dice-based RPG system. To the extent that were I Akira Toriyama, and if someone handed me this system's rules, I'd seriously consider licensing the RPG rights to Dragonball to you (yes, I know, it's been done). But in most, though not all, good dice-based RPG systems, the players may not know everything about any given situation, and they may not know all the modifiers that apply to every die roll... But they do know many of the details about how the system works.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Flattery will get you everywhere, right?
But seriously this is more or less what I've been saying. This looks like a really good RPG, but trying to play without the Player's Handbook is infuriating.
[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
[X] Nope! With Ally.
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
--[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
[X] Nope!
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
--[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
[X] Nope! With Ally.
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
--[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
[X] Nope!
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
--[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well by the sound of it, the existing Dragonball paper-and-pencil RPG is kind of pants, so it's not like he has much to lose.
- Location
- Italy
to be fair the player is not supposed to have access to the Dungeon Master's guide and the Monster Manual. Those are mostly for the DM.
most of the maluses/bonus are now explained in the rules, and the context does give decend indications about how hard or easy a task is.
I admit i underestimated Kakara's and Dandeer's hate for each other, and considering thei're at the lowest possible relationship level (Enemy: Hated) i should't have done that. The relationship itself logically gives at least a -50, and it's not unreasonable to assume another -50 at least from trying to persuade her while chained and defeated, another -30 or so for having tortured her in the previous fight (tail grip), plus other maluses depending on what we're trying to persuade her off.
All things considered, convincing her to give up now in this conditions would be about as hard as convincing Frieza to become a good, benevolent ruler BEFORE the Namek Arc. A character with elite (or more likely Legendary) comunication skill + the appropriate talents MIGHT have a chance. We're not that good yet.
Well by the sound of it, the existing Dragonball paper-and-pencil RPG is kind of pants, so it's not like he has much to lose.
where do i find the rules? i'm a bit curious