- Location
- Here
Possible other reason: we wished to control grief. The same-name situation might result in some control of both emotional and magical grief despite the two being otherwise unrelated (outside of a Soul Gem forcing parity).
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Philippines
How will you guys see the shades, they are probably invisible, located in many locations and they have no bodies or anchor, now that Rionna is in coma.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
"Do not throw souls*."
* "...through windows. Throwing that soul is okay."
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
We're hoping Sayaka will be able to find them with Riona's power?
By the way, Sayaka being awesome.
Sayaka Unlocked: Juggernaut Anti Magic Pulse.
Sabrina Senpai note: Be mindful to not aim those at the ground! Don't want to accidentally hit Chicago!
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
[X] Express gratitude to your friends.
[X] Grab Rionna's personal effects and hammerspace them.
-[X] Investigate the cider. Have Mami take a look at it.
[X] Get an antimagic enchantment from the Kures.
-[X] Solicit advice from your friends about secure places to keep Rionna's soul gem. Bring up your hammerspace as an option.
[X] Vent to your friends, snuggle your girlfriend. Seriously, that encounter has you stressed out.
Altering my vote to include the first line.
[X] Grab Rionna's personal effects and hammerspace them.
-[X] Investigate the cider. Have Mami take a look at it.
[X] Get an antimagic enchantment from the Kures.
-[X] Solicit advice from your friends about secure places to keep Rionna's soul gem. Bring up your hammerspace as an option.
[X] Vent to your friends, snuggle your girlfriend. Seriously, that encounter has you stressed out.
Altering my vote to include the first line.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Perhaps Sayaka can already see them with her "visual prowess" enabled? I think that is worth a shot.
Could we find a person with deep, obvious unhappiness / depression, and just carry that away from them for a while?
Spreading happiness is generally a good deed?
This sort of SCIENCE might be solid Magical Girl behavior?
Could we find a person with deep, obvious unhappiness / depression, and just carry that away from them for a while?
Spreading happiness is generally a good deed?
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Should we include our talk to Sayaka re: power copying Rionna this vote?
- Location
- USA
@Kaizuki It looks like you were right, we did ask her to sleep on it/think about it.
This is from Point insertion 9, relevant sections bolded
And then Sabrina tells her that we think she can handle it (from the start of Point Insertion 10)
AND THEN
I was looking backwards through the posts, and I saw this (PI 11):
...
What the fuck Nadia.
...
I don't exactly think (or rather, I hope) that Nadia would just lie to our face or by omission like that, especially since we showed her what we are capable of and gave her a clear seed. I think Riona must have got her with a mind-whammy/memory-wipe/command-giving power, or whatever she tried to do to Sabrina's soul.
... which is what I would think happened If Nadia wasn't absolutely loaded with enchantments when we saw her, assuming one of the enchantments she would grab would be to block mind-whammy/control powers.
If we do think that Nadia was whammied, then that suggests that Riona('s shades) could have something which can bypass enchantments, anti-magic or otherwise. If/when Sayaka grabs Riona's power or we contact the shades, I would suggest looking for one that would explain this AND making sure that Riona can't verbally (or non-magically) command it once we wake her up.
Of course,
But I still want to know what happened with Nadia.
This is from Point insertion 9, relevant sections bolded
And then Sabrina tells her that we think she can handle it (from the start of Point Insertion 10)
AND THEN
I was looking backwards through the posts, and I saw this (PI 11):
...
What the fuck Nadia.
...
I don't exactly think (or rather, I hope) that Nadia would just lie to our face or by omission like that, especially since we showed her what we are capable of and gave her a clear seed. I think Riona must have got her with a mind-whammy/memory-wipe/command-giving power, or whatever she tried to do to Sabrina's soul.
... which is what I would think happened If Nadia wasn't absolutely loaded with enchantments when we saw her, assuming one of the enchantments she would grab would be to block mind-whammy/control powers.
If we do think that Nadia was whammied, then that suggests that Riona('s shades) could have something which can bypass enchantments, anti-magic or otherwise. If/when Sayaka grabs Riona's power or we contact the shades, I would suggest looking for one that would explain this AND making sure that Riona can't verbally (or non-magically) command it once we wake her up.
Of course,
Would hopefully suggest that we don't need to worry about Riona saying "free me" and actually getting freed from anti-magic, so this shouldn't be absolutely critical to keeping Riona non-threatening.
But I still want to know what happened with Nadia.
- Location
- California
Is it time!?
Is it time for SCIENCE!?
YES, FINALLY!
Is it time for SCIENCE!?
YES, FINALLY!
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No first secure Rionna.
Then Mami hugs
Then timestop rant with Homura on EVERYTHING.
... later visit to the junkyard and whale on a car with our hammer.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Then Witchbomb Sayaka and have her take Riona's shades (or forfeit the shades).
Then we can- no wait, Niko asked us to call, we probably need to talk with Nadia, and we need to do the dishes.
Uh... SCIENCE! at some point maybe?!
- Location
- SomeWhereElse
[X] Godwinson
Than hugging, ranting, and science. And probably some other stuff.
Than hugging, ranting, and science. And probably some other stuff.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
[X] Godwinson
Reiterating, I think, but just to be safe.
First, note that Rionna's power was all about her own control. Sayaka doesn't "take the reins" on someone else's power; consider that her clones are completely distinct from the clones of the cloneguca she copied. I think that Sayaka will only be able to "take over" Rionna's shades if she straight-up uses Rionna's power on them, in its full-powered "tear soul out of its body and enslave it" mode, and I don't want to make Sayaka do that.
Second, you're assuming that these shades can be "fixed". Note that, while it's almost certain that they're aware and suffering, it's also possible that they're in a metaphysical state that's far enough gone that they can only be brought back by a Wish.
Third, given that "WHAT IF HER SHADES FADE, THAT WOULD MAKE US A MURDERERRRRRR" had been brought up repeatedly in the lead-up to this update, I think that if we had a way to do anything about it we'd have been given a voting option for it.
Fourth, consider what this would mean for Sayaka's power levels. Firnagzen isn't going to get even close to offering us a chance to take the powers of a hundred magical girls.
Fifth, even if Sayaka did manage to take over all of Rionna's shades... think of what that'd do to her. A hundred-plus actively tortured souls stapled to her gem? Nnnnnope, not doing that to her, she'd suffer every minute of it.
So the expected reward, as the product of the raw reward value and the probability of that reward, is low.
Compare this to the cost. Witchbombing Sayaka now would be a gruelling, catastrophically stressful affair, risking horribly negative thread climate at the best of times. Right now, when the leading vote specifically says "vent, snuggle, and de-stress", as a direct result of the thread being locked repeatedly because of people arguing for HARD GIRLS DOING HARD THINGS... I think that we cannot risk another stressful debate right now. Given that the probability of reward is so low, I think that trying to witchbomb Sayaka right now is out of the question.
Well, unless you want to propose an impromptu week-long timestop vacation. I'm always on board with that plan.
Reiterating, I think, but just to be safe.
I think that this isn't worth taking a risk on.
First, note that Rionna's power was all about her own control. Sayaka doesn't "take the reins" on someone else's power; consider that her clones are completely distinct from the clones of the cloneguca she copied. I think that Sayaka will only be able to "take over" Rionna's shades if she straight-up uses Rionna's power on them, in its full-powered "tear soul out of its body and enslave it" mode, and I don't want to make Sayaka do that.
Second, you're assuming that these shades can be "fixed". Note that, while it's almost certain that they're aware and suffering, it's also possible that they're in a metaphysical state that's far enough gone that they can only be brought back by a Wish.
Third, given that "WHAT IF HER SHADES FADE, THAT WOULD MAKE US A MURDERERRRRRR" had been brought up repeatedly in the lead-up to this update, I think that if we had a way to do anything about it we'd have been given a voting option for it.
Fourth, consider what this would mean for Sayaka's power levels. Firnagzen isn't going to get even close to offering us a chance to take the powers of a hundred magical girls.
Fifth, even if Sayaka did manage to take over all of Rionna's shades... think of what that'd do to her. A hundred-plus actively tortured souls stapled to her gem? Nnnnnope, not doing that to her, she'd suffer every minute of it.
So the expected reward, as the product of the raw reward value and the probability of that reward, is low.
Compare this to the cost. Witchbombing Sayaka now would be a gruelling, catastrophically stressful affair, risking horribly negative thread climate at the best of times. Right now, when the leading vote specifically says "vent, snuggle, and de-stress", as a direct result of the thread being locked repeatedly because of people arguing for HARD GIRLS DOING HARD THINGS... I think that we cannot risk another stressful debate right now. Given that the probability of reward is so low, I think that trying to witchbomb Sayaka right now is out of the question.
Well, unless you want to propose an impromptu week-long timestop vacation. I'm always on board with that plan.
So this update brought up something important with Mami and Sayaka. They may come to the conclusion that not knowing things puts Sabrina at risk.
The thought very likely has occurred to Mami, gauging her reactions. Her and Sayaka's.
Edit:
Hold up. Has Sayak decided to absorb the Witchbomb? I suspect she's on the path to coming to it, but I don't want to make assumptions.
The thought very likely has occurred to Mami, gauging her reactions. Her and Sayaka's.
Edit:
Hold up. Has Sayak decided to absorb the Witchbomb? I suspect she's on the path to coming to it, but I don't want to make assumptions.
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- Location
- SomeWhereElse
Well, unless you want to propose an impromptu week-long timestop vacation. I'm always on board with that plan.
I vote Disneyland. I'm not entirely sure how you'd make the rides work in a time stop but I'm sure someone could make it work. That or a week of movies, games, and anime - doing that is practically Sabrina's birthright.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think we need to either decide to Witchbomb Sayaka, which I lean towards* or give up the shades entirely**.[X] Godwinson
Reiterating, I think, but just to be safe.
I think that this isn't worth taking a risk on.
First, note that Rionna's power was all about her own control. Sayaka doesn't "take the reins" on someone else's power; consider that her clones are completely distinct from the clones of the cloneguca she copied. I think that Sayaka will only be able to "take over" Rionna's shades if she straight-up uses Rionna's power on them, in its full-powered "tear soul out of its body and enslave it" mode, and I don't want to make Sayaka do that.
Second, you're assuming that these shades can be "fixed". Note that, while it's almost certain that they're aware and suffering, it's also possible that they're in a metaphysical state that's far enough gone that they can only be brought back by a Wish.
Third, given that "WHAT IF HER SHADES FADE, THAT WOULD MAKE US A MURDERERRRRRR" had been brought up repeatedly in the lead-up to this update, I think that if we had a way to do anything about it we'd have been given a voting option for it.
Fourth, consider what this would mean for Sayaka's power levels. Firnagzen isn't going to get even close to offering us a chance to take the powers of a hundred magical girls.
Fifth, even if Sayaka did manage to take over all of Rionna's shades... think of what that'd do to her. A hundred-plus actively tortured souls stapled to her gem? Nnnnnope, not doing that to her, she'd suffer every minute of it.
So the expected reward, as the product of the raw reward value and the probability of that reward, is low.
Compare this to the cost. Witchbombing Sayaka now would be a gruelling, catastrophically stressful affair, risking horribly negative thread climate at the best of times. Right now, when the leading vote specifically says "vent, snuggle, and de-stress", as a direct result of the thread being locked repeatedly because of people arguing for HARD GIRLS DOING HARD THINGS... I think that we cannot risk another stressful debate right now. Given that the probability of reward is so low, I think that trying to witchbomb Sayaka right now is out of the question.
Well, unless you want to propose an impromptu week-long timestop vacation. I'm always on board with that plan.
* We already asked Sayaka to think about getting bombed. If nothing else, she had a few hours to stew on it.
I'd say trying to save the shades is a long shot, but...
** If we give up on the shades without giving Sayaka this chance, I think she might blame us, and maybe herself.
Say, even if we asked her whether she wants to learn the secret, she says no, we let it go... if she does decide to get Witchbombed in the future, she's gonna think back, think "you mean I could have saved people if I said yes (and you didn't tell me that)?"
I know this inherently puts pressure on Sayaka, but what would she choose, if she knew, to get bombed and try to save people, or to not get bombed and give up even a small chance to save them?
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
What about the possibility that we have 24+ hours before such deadline hits anything?
The path to saving a Shade needs some more intermediate steps. Can we take at least one of those to better decide if there is anything for us to pursue in that direction?
So we head for a Game Center and be delinquent tonight? Sounds doable? Salve our troubles with the thundering of buttons and classic pixels.
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- Location
- Illinois
Why is *now* the first time I'm seeing this source laid out fully? I should have read this sooner, my god. Thank you for quoting this, I'd now like to point out to everyone who has had anything to say about Nadia in this matter that the wrong sections of that text have been being emphasized. Read *this*:
Now, I'm gonna ask everyone to remember the details of Rionna's trip.
One-day round-trip tickets -- no sightseeing, no worry that it might take more time than that to deal with what she'd expected us to be.
The talk about how she goes around killing grief controllers.
The lack of any discomfort with the hotel, airport, or any other element of travel.
What part of that speaks to Rionna *not* doing this stuff regularly? What part of this *doesn't* sound like she does it every time she gets wind of a grief controller, and that she's done it at least often enough to be comfortable with it and used to it?
... And Nadia hadn't heard of her travelling much.
Let me be perfectly clear, here: these accounts only match up if you figure that by spending nearly no time away from home and by efficiently & brutally putting down everyone who could report her presence, Rionna has successfully suppressed the knowledge of her murderous adventures from reaching even the ears of *Nadia Bennouna.*
Let me just -- let me just say that again. Nadia had not heard of Rionna "travelling much." That emphatically does not mesh in any way with the things Rionna has said and which we have observed of her. So: is Nadia deaf? Or is Rionna awfully good at not leaving witnesses or evidence by way of *annihilating all of both*, an option which her not calling ahead would seem to support given that her travels should have made it clear that it's protocol, *especially when it seems reasonable to expect that if we didn't get a call ahead, neither did any of the other people she had visited.* The idea that she didn't know calling ahead is expected when she must have committed that "error" multiple times in the past is ludicrous. Not calling ahead, however, would significantly reduce the chances of anyone connecting her to the murders she has committed.
Tl;Dr the biggest thing that text supports is that Nadia doesn't know jack shit about Rionna and will be rather horrified when we tell her what we learned today IC.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
This is extremely important.
And just like that you basically proved that Rionna kills every fucking magical girl in the same town as a Grief Controller to protect her own reputation.
"Some of them may have been good people", she says.
Man fuck this bitch seal that anti-magic box with cement.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
On SCIENCE:
I think that the important thing to ask is: What is our goal?
To complete the quest, obviously.
So what information do we think we'll need to complete the quest? Of it, what do we not have?
I think that examining our soul and exploring the theoretical and conceptual limits of our powers is probably the way to go. Why are some things we do witchy and others not? For example, we can apply arbitrary properties at a cost of witchiness, and we can't generate volume without extreme witchiness, but we can apparently make as much energy as we want. Let's explore parts of that. What other particles can we create? Gravitons? Protons+Neutrons+Electrons? Are they witchy? If we use active grief to create an object with zero volume but nonzero mass, is it witchy? How about the opposite? Same for arbitrary other physical objects. If we create and contain within our range enough photons to have a non-negligible mass-energy, equivalent to, say, a gram of matter, would it be as witchy as a gram of matter? Can we extrude stable matter without it being made of grief? What do those results imply about the nature of witchiness, and thence the nature of what we're actually doing with grief? If we know what we're actually doing when we control grief, what does that mean about the origin and root cause of our powers?
We need to "give up" on the shades, though I think that that wording is disingenuous. I think that it'd be more accurate to say that we shouldn't throw away everything we've gained for a tiny chance of a relatively minor reward. I think that there's little-to-no value in pursuing them further, I think that there's little-to-no chance that we'll get value out of it, I think that there are multiple indications in and out of story that we won't get it, I think that the constant costs outweigh the benefits all on their own, and I think that the expected cost is so much higher that I'd seriously evaluate it up near "Sayaka witches out".
Oh, more reasons we can't possibly recover Riona's shades: Firnagzen would have to write and flesh out two hundred new meguca and populate our nation-state with them. Noooot happening.
I think that the important thing to ask is: What is our goal?
To complete the quest, obviously.
So what information do we think we'll need to complete the quest? Of it, what do we not have?
- What is Sabrina's history and origin?
- We recently learned that Sabrina's native enchantment is fast griefhax. This indicates to me that there is some underlying, unifying "theme" for Sabrina's power that we have yet to infer, which would open up plot-relevant new applications.
- We need to figure out what Madokami wants for us. This is likely related to the underlying mechanism of our power.
- We need to figure out what's up with our soul. Probably related to our origin and power.
I think that examining our soul and exploring the theoretical and conceptual limits of our powers is probably the way to go. Why are some things we do witchy and others not? For example, we can apply arbitrary properties at a cost of witchiness, and we can't generate volume without extreme witchiness, but we can apparently make as much energy as we want. Let's explore parts of that. What other particles can we create? Gravitons? Protons+Neutrons+Electrons? Are they witchy? If we use active grief to create an object with zero volume but nonzero mass, is it witchy? How about the opposite? Same for arbitrary other physical objects. If we create and contain within our range enough photons to have a non-negligible mass-energy, equivalent to, say, a gram of matter, would it be as witchy as a gram of matter? Can we extrude stable matter without it being made of grief? What do those results imply about the nature of witchiness, and thence the nature of what we're actually doing with grief? If we know what we're actually doing when we control grief, what does that mean about the origin and root cause of our powers?
Unacceptable. Given what you just quoted, can you imagine her insisting on anything other than being witchbombed right on the spot? You know that she'd sacrifice herself in an instant, without ever considering the effects her death would have on Madoka or Homura or Sabrina. The point of asking her to think about it was so that she could think about it. I think that her ability to make a rational, well-informed, and well-considered decision about the witchbomb is more important than her ability to commit suicide.
We need to "give up" on the shades, though I think that that wording is disingenuous. I think that it'd be more accurate to say that we shouldn't throw away everything we've gained for a tiny chance of a relatively minor reward. I think that there's little-to-no value in pursuing them further, I think that there's little-to-no chance that we'll get value out of it, I think that there are multiple indications in and out of story that we won't get it, I think that the constant costs outweigh the benefits all on their own, and I think that the expected cost is so much higher that I'd seriously evaluate it up near "Sayaka witches out".
Oh, more reasons we can't possibly recover Riona's shades: Firnagzen would have to write and flesh out two hundred new meguca and populate our nation-state with them. Noooot happening.
...How did we miss that? Nadia hasn't heard of Rionna traveling or ever interacting with grief controllers, which means that Rionna is killing literally every possible witness. And grief controllers aren't quiet; in fact, by definition they're not-quiet enough for Rionna to hear of them. And then... she kills them and everyone nearby so thoroughly that nobody has ever heard of a boogeyman that kills grief controllers. What the fuck.
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Gadjo
Doka
A: We cannot pressure Sayaka into the witchbomb. It's not our choice to make whether she accepts it, and now would be a bad time for everyone involved.
B: Since we're pretty sure Riona made the wish with the intent of making people suffer I suspect Sayaka would simply refuse take any shades, because she's too good a person to do it. We've never dealt with souls outside of a body but not in a gem. I suspect they're only held here by the intent of Riona's wish, and her intent was sure as hell not "put them back in some bodies so they can go on with their lives".
I'd liken their existence to not unlike that of witches- all we can do for them at the moment is let them go to their final rest. We keep seeds around because if we can even find a way to make them suffer less, it's better than them going to kyubey. These shades will go to the regular old afterlife, hardly a fate akin to that.
B: Since we're pretty sure Riona made the wish with the intent of making people suffer I suspect Sayaka would simply refuse take any shades, because she's too good a person to do it. We've never dealt with souls outside of a body but not in a gem. I suspect they're only held here by the intent of Riona's wish, and her intent was sure as hell not "put them back in some bodies so they can go on with their lives".
I'd liken their existence to not unlike that of witches- all we can do for them at the moment is let them go to their final rest. We keep seeds around because if we can even find a way to make them suffer less, it's better than them going to kyubey. These shades will go to the regular old afterlife, hardly a fate akin to that.
- Location
- Illinois
I blame it on this whole thing not having waited a few months before starting. If I'd just been less braindead, as I am now...
Not necessarily. Pretty much every neighboring group will tend to be enemies with the fake grief controller, due to her offloading her grief onto them or similar.
They might wonder who it was that killed the grief controller's group for a while, but soon everyone will forget about it and move on with their lives.