I am an incoherent, numb, mess. Excellency to the grief seeds, Excellency to Rionna's targets, Excellency to Riona, it's all twistable.

Dicevote incoming(edit: 3 was bandwagon, 2 was try redirecting her to punishing Kyubey):

[X]When Vengeance consumes your hate though, what's left to keep you from spiraling into the abyss?
-[x]If you ever want to punish Kyubey instead of hapless pawns of the system, let me know.
-[x]Raise the field.
OctarineShrike threw 1 3-faced dice. Reason: 1 for Gemsplode, 2 for redirec Total: 2
2 2
 
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Rionna's sades are suffering.
I don't disagree with your reasoning for alpha striking her now, but I'd prefer not make the decision of kill/gem Riona pass through Sabrina alone.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but are we sure that Homura is going to be okay with having Oriko and Kirika in timestop?
Or even that far from their jail, for that matter.

Funnily enough, I imagine Homura overtaking the choice and killing Riona so Sabrina wouldn't have to, only to realize Oriko already killed Riona, overtaking Homura and Sabrina so they wouldn't have to.
Adhoc vote count started by Filraen on Sep 10, 2018 at 1:43 PM, finished with 165 posts and 22 votes.

  • [x] Fine. Release the isolation field.
    [x] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [x] Given the circumstance, while it's regrettable, I agree it's best that you leave Mitakihara at your earliest convenience. Further I must insist that you don't create anymore shades in our city for any reason or I'm afraid conflict will be unavoidable. That said, wish her a good night.
    [x] Leave with Mami. You're done here.
    [x] When you're out a considerable range from Riona, contact Homura by phone for a timestop meeting. Update Homura and Mami of the situation. You weren't able to come to any agreement with Riona. Bring up Riona's intentions to leave in the morning and threat assessment. Avoid social bombs.
    [X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
    -[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [X] Agree to end the meeting soon.
    -[X] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [X] Release the Field.
    [X] Before letting her be, call her out and get concessions in exchange for her actions, without pissing her off too badly:
    -[X] Priority: Arrange a new meeting before she leaves.
    -[X] Priority: She does not attack nor use magic against anyone in Mitakihara.
    -[X] She'll answer all our questions next meeting.
    [X] Go. Once you're away:
    -[X] Timestop meeting.
    -[X] Explain everything. Avoid social bombs. Don't take sides, be impartial.
    [X] Let her go, on the stipulation that she not harm anyone in Mitakihara
    [X] Call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [X] Kill her
    [X] Promise agree to end the meeting. Because you're sick of it, not because she's asking.
    [X] But first:
    -[X] Call her out. On everything. Trying to use magic on you, threatening you, baiting you, everything.
    --[X] Use this.
    -[X] Get her to agree to concessions, as many as you can get without pissing her off too badly:
    --[X] Priority: Arrange another meeting before she leaves (morning?).
    --[X] She'll stay confined within a location of her choosing for the duration of her stay.
    --[X] She'll answer questions, now or at that later meeting, about:
    ---[X] Our Soul.
    ---[X] Clear Seeds.
    ---[X] Wish Rejection.
    ---[X] The Feather.
    ---[X] How the fuck is her name spelled.
    [X] Once Riona agrees to everything you can get her to, warn her to not try that again and dismiss the Privacy Field.
    -[X] Let Mami know before you dismiss the Field.
    -[X] Watch out in case she tries to pull something.
    [X] Get out. Timestop meeting. Mami hugs.
    -[X] Get Sayaka, Oriko and Kirika. This is important.
    -[X] Ask Kirika to make Anti Magic Enchantments for our group's use while you talk.
    -[X] Explain everything that can be explained about what just happened.
    -[X] Don't take a side. Be as impartial as possible, and do not support any course of action over another.
    [X] gem her
    [X] Try that shit again on anyone in your territory, or hurt anyone in Mitakihara, and her life is forfeit.
    [X] You'll let her go, but she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing—so you'll be taking something in exchange. Your teammate is going to copy her power before she leaves this privacy sphere. It won't harm her or her power in any way, nor can it be used to track or monitor her. But you'll be getting SOMETHING out of all the trouble she's caused you.
    [x] Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now.
    [X]When Vengeance consumes your hate though, what's left to keep you from spiraling into the abyss?
    -[x]If you ever want to punish Kyubey instead of hapless pawns of the system, let me know.
    -[x]Raise the field.
 
[Q] Clap. Applaud Riona.
-[Q] Congratulate her on her best Saruman impression. Oh wait, you'll play along.
-[Q] "Your staff is broken."

[Q] By the way, she says she can't get her sister back, but that's because she fucked up.
-[Q] Grief make: Sabrina's Guide To Meguca-ing.
-[Q] Point at Step One (Wish Good) as a way to show how bad she fucked up.
-[Q] She could have Wished her sister back.
--[Q] But.
--[Q] She.
--[Q] Fucked.
--[Q] Up.

:V
 
Rionna wished for a power that she could use to torture her enemies. She got it.

All you people that were asking for more clarification on the state of her shades, here it is: They're suffering. They're suffering right now and they're suffering as much as Rionna can make them suffer. She knows what she wanted when she wished and Wishes always come true.

The "she's not doing anything bad right now, we can deal with her later" or "she isn't enslaving people" arguments falls flat on their face. When you discover that a serial killer's basement is additionally full of people chained to the wall being tortured continuously, you don't say "she's not doing anything bad right now, we can deal with her later". You don't say "she won't kidnap or murder anyone else now that we're watching her". You do something to minimize ongoing suffering.
You know, this does give some perspective on what she said earlier about going specifically for grief controllers around the world and non-magical scum in Edinburgh. She's basically meguca Punisher, in that she does what she does not to save people or promote justice or to mete out vengeance for the victims, but to Punish the wicked by her own hands. It's not too far-fetched to think Rionna's imagining her sister's killer's face for every soul she rips out.

Though Frank Castle at least sends his victims straight to hell, instead of keeping them partly in this plane feeling madokami knows what.
 
Considering how much of a mess I'm turning into over this and my difficulty keeping away, can I get a threadban please until Riona's been confined/killed/judged or leaves or something?
 
Not able to go in hard on the discussion yet, but.
Rionna wished for a power that she could use to torture her enemies. She got it.

All you people that were asking for more clarification on the state of her shades, here it is: They're suffering. They're suffering right now and they're suffering as much as Rionna can make them suffer. She knows what she wanted when she wished and Wishes always come true.

The "she's not doing anything bad right now, we can deal with her later" or "she isn't enslaving people" arguments falls flat on their face. When you discover that a serial killer's basement is additionally full of people chained to the wall being tortured continuously, you don't say "she's not doing anything bad right now, we can deal with her later". You don't say "she won't kidnap or murder anyone else now that we're watching her". You do something to minimize ongoing suffering.

In other words, she can't shade us instantly.

[x] Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now.
How are you getting this from that quote? We asked her what she wanted, and she replied with "I hate her, I want Justice, I want my sister back." None of that has to do with the shade's suffering.
 
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But that may be too on point and ignoring Orikos warning.
Whatever breaking point asking Rionna about her sister was supposed to push her to, I think she reached it on her own in this update.
You open your mouth to speak, but she barrels on. "You want to know? I raised my sister's killer," she snarls. "I hate her. I hate her. I want justice, I want my sister back, but I cannae. I can't bring her back. You can't."
 
[Q] By the way, she says she can't get her sister back, but that's because she fucked up.
-[Q] Grief make: Sabrina's Guide To Meguca-ing.
-[Q] Point at Step One (Wish Good) as a way to show how bad she fucked up.
-[Q] She could have Wished her sister back.
--[Q] But.
--[Q] She.
--[Q] Fucked.
--[Q] Up.

Even as a joke, I feel this is in poor taste. This is almost to the letter how Kyubey witched out Nagisa in canon.
 
Point of order-

You open your mouth to speak, but she barrels on. "You want to know? I raised my sister's killer," she snarls. "I hate her. I hate her. I want justice, I want my sister back, but I cannae. I can't bring her back. You can't."

Just because she hates her sister's killer doesn't mean she's getting what she wants in torturing her for all eternity. She says the shades she's got are in a sort of dreaming state. I don't think we've actually heard Riona actually contradict that- it's entirely likely some of her frustration has come from the fact that she has her sister's killer's shade and can't punish her any further. That she feels it's entirely unfair that her sister is gone and dead, and she can't even really punish her killer, and the killer just gets to... sleep away her death.

I can't take her words about hating her sister's killer's shade as confirmation that all the shades are being perma-tortured, in other words.

Edit: Ninjad'd. This thread is moving fast today.
 
??? Gonna have to explain that one to me because I'm not seeing it. Sabrina can't raise the dead.
ooph. My bad. I meant "fix Rionna's situation" not "Raise her sister"

Point of order-



Just because she hates her sister's killer doesn't mean she's getting what she wants in torturing her for all eternity. She says the shades she's got are in a sort of dreaming state. I don't think we've actually heard Riona actually contradict that- it's entirely likely some of her frustration has come from the fact that she has her sister's killer's shade and can't punish her any further. That she feels it's entirely unfair that her sister is gone and dead, and she can't even really punish her killer, and the killer just gets to... sleep away her death.

I can't take her words about hating her sister's killer's shade as confirmation that all the shades are being perma-tortured, in other words.

Edit: Ninjad'd. This thread is moving fast today.
it would also fit with the ironic nature of wishes, to get the wording and not the spirit of the request.
 
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How are you getting this from that quote? We asked her what she wanted, and she replied with "I hate her, I want Justice, I want my sister back." None of that has to do with the shade's suffering.
Firn all but explicitly stated that we can fix this, it's the first section of the update.
What else Riona'd bring back the killer of her sister for if not for making it suffer? Maybe Madoka would have thought of redemption or forgiveness but this is Riona who are're talking about.
 
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Hopefully this will be my final statement before I dont have to think about this for a while.

If she wants justice that badly, why not point her at KB and energy yields denial if she can't punish her sister's killer to her satisfaction? Point her at the architect instead of the hapless pawns of the system? Does she know about the heat death and energy yields business?
 
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What else Riona'd bring back the killer of your sister for if not for making it suffer?
The fact that she's not successful in making it suffer (which suggests to me she already had the power, and her wish was for another purpose, perhaps before her sister was even dead) is the point here. And, furthermore, if this is what's going on it flips all our reasoning from past updates on its head - contrary to our previous discussion that she's being willfully blind to the shades' suffering because her sister is one of them - in this scenario, she has every incentive to try to investigate whether they're suffering and to believe that they are, and she still believes they're not.
 
Even as a joke, I feel this is in poor taste. This is almost to the letter how Kyubey witched out Nagisa in canon.
I agree. Maybe her denial, how no one can revive the dead, is how she copes on not being able to 'Wish Gud'. Maybe she made her wish while emotionally compromised (like literally moments after seeing her sister die), maybe some alien rat bastard gave her some BS half-truth like 'Your potential might not be enough to bring her back'.
 
it would also fit with the ironic nature of wishes, to get the wording and not the spirit of the request.

At least in the original series (I've not read all the supplementary material), generally the fulfillment wishes *have* been in alignment with the spirit/intent of the request as well, even beyond the person's understanding thereof, not just the wording. Hence why Homura was travelling back enough in time to not only protect Madoka from being killed, but from being contracted at all -- even though when she was first making the wish, she was only thinking of averting Madoka's death.

In the worst wishes (like Kyouko's or Sayaka's) it's just that the conscious intent of the wish and what the person *really wants deep down*, differ, but I don't believe that any wish I know of violated the actual spirit/intent of the wish.
 
Now that I've had time to think about it, I'm not entirely sure that having the timestop conversation after Rionna leaves is a good idea; it relies on her not escalating, taking any and everything in stride without it coming to blows. And seeing as how the most likely result of the talk will be "anti-magic cuffs, put her in Meguca jail," which we can do right now, I don't really see why we should take that risk.

Mami is right there, if Rionna's ever going to strike, now would probably be the best time. And from her perspective, we just resisted her mind-whammy. She may go for Mami before we can go for her. I'll probably make a vote for having the talk now, once I get home.
 
Actually, for once I'm gonna try and make my own vote here.

[x] Be ready to defend yourself here but for the love of god be subtle about it, Rionna is getting more volatile, the last thing you need is for her to mistake a defensive preparation as an offensive one..
-[x] Her 'justice' is an insult to the word and she knows it.
-[x] "If your sister saw you now, she'd be horrified at the monster you turned yourself into."
[x] Message Mami to have her ready to call in a timestop, have Homura bring the Kures along, you may well need them.
 
I'll just note that Rionna was very honest during this encounter, and that if her Wish indeed was to make her sister's killer suffer, I'd expect she could say more about how bad shades have it than "Well, I dunno, maybe they are aware, I don't think so".
 
[X] Shrug casually
-[X] Alright. Wasn't planning on keeping you trapped anyways, anti-spy zone is for spies like QB, not you.
--[X] Release the field, hug Mami, telepathically request time-stop.
---[X] Discuss.
----[?] Gank the soulguca?


Im still leaning towards no for the stabby stabs, but whatever. Swimming against the tide.
 
Haaaaaaaaaa...

Is this... really all we are?

We've been told, again and again, how to successfully play this quest.

That success lies in the direction of being the classic magical girl.

Is it really that difficult...?



Why we will not be letting Rionna go as-is:

It's easy, sometimes, to suggest that, say, running involuntary clinical trials on a handful of people to develop a life-saving vaccine is morally sound. But to be honest? There's a basic taste-test for things like that.

Imagine that Rionna was keeping Mami, Sayaka, and Kyouko as shades.

If you're not okay with that, it's not really okay for you to argue that her keeping others as shades is acceptable. You could say that you're not really in a position to do anything about it... except that Sabrina is.

People have said things like, "oh, if we kill this girl, we should have to go all over the place doing the same thing to everyone else." But what that ignores is that the decision on whether to allow this girl to continue or to stop her is upon us at this very moment.

It is one thing to see no evil and therefore reject no evil.

It is another to see an evil and to not reject it.



Why we will not be gemming Rionna next post:

I would like to take a moment here to remind everyone of two things.

Firstly, that we have been repeatedly told that success in Puella Magi Adfligo Systema generally lies in the direction of being the classic magical girl. It is to be kind, to be honest, to reject evil and to reject that others cannot be saved from evil.

Secondly, that we have been repeatedly told that major rewards in Puella Magi Adfligo Systema are available primarily by close reading of the text, and finding the things which Firnagzen hides in it.

To react to this admission

You open your mouth to speak, but she barrels on. "You want to know? I raised my sister's killer," she snarls. "I hate her. I hate her. I want justice, I want my sister back, but I cannae. I can't bring her back. You can't."

by quickly killing (1) the person who admitted it is not the action of a magical girl classic. It is the action of the hothead, the condemner, the character whom the magical girl classic tries to get to wonder if maybe the villain can be redeemed instead of destroyed.



Likewise, it is not the action of a magical girl classic to allow the villain to walk free without very good reason.



[X] Cleanse Rionna. Don't ask whether she's okay with it, just do it.
[X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from securing justice for her sister to taking away the sisters of others? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
[X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.
[X] Talk to her:
-[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
-[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
-[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching.



There should be something in here about Mami, but I'm not sure what to put.




(1) -- gemming, while not killing, is thematically identical.
 
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