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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Tally incoming. Onmur' s plan and generic dewitching are leading with Redshirts vote as runner up.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 13, 2018 at 11:26 AM, finished with 65 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [X] Not a lie. You've got a laundry list of demands you expect her to comply after you've helped solve her problem.
    -[X] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.
    -[X] But hold that thought...
    [X] She looks like she's got something to say?
    -[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations, both in speech and action.
    -[X] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.
    [X] Insist that you can help. It's your purpose, what you feel you were made for.
    -[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
    -[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually consider it.
    [X] About that laundry list. In exchange for your help:
    -[X] She'll stop killing people.
    -[X] She'll release the souls unwillingly taken.
    -[X] She'll help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
    -[X] She'll help us with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
    --[X] If so, reveal de-Witching plans.
    [x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was pushed by circumstance to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
    -[x] If I manage to help you, if the things you treasure are safe, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?
    [x] My whole goal is to help people. And if that's not something you trust, then trust that I'm working on some really tricky problems -like dewitching- and would appreciate some assistance.
    [X] She doesn't get it, does she?
    -[X] You don't need preconditions. You'll help her, because you'll make the world a slightly better place by doing so. And because you'll be able to get her to agree to things afterwards.
    --[X] When people have something they'd watch the world burn before endangering, you don't open negotiations by demanding they endanger it. You open negotiations by ensuring its safety.
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] Vebyast
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    [X] It isn't a lie. You want Riona to stop but you can settle for postconditions.
    [X] But what is Riona's problem she keeps in Edinburgh anyway? Somthing to cleanse from grief? You're working on cleansing enchantments and can refresh Grief Seeds indefinitely. Dewitching? You've been working on that and gotten some results
    -[x] If Riona shows interest or challenge us to our claim, bring the Clear Seed again and let her examine it. Explain technical differences between Grief Seeds and Clear Seeds (clear seeds feel calmer, etc). After that, insist on the question about what's in Edinburgh.
    [X] Yes, you despise it. Your offer is not a lie, though.
    [X] You simply believe that she has a reason for this.
    -[X] And that if her problem is solved, she won't have that reason anymore. She'll stop.
    [X] Are you wrong?
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
    [X] Partially concede her point. You suppose her continuing to take souls while working together would be an issue. You would not expect anything further unless you can deliver. You've got a laundry list of demands you expect her to comply afteryou've helped solve her problem.
    -[X] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.
    -[X] But hold that thought...
    [X] She looks like she's got something to say?
    -[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations, both in speech and action.
    -[X] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.
    [X] Insist that you can help. It's your purpose, what you feel you were made for.
    -[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
    -[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually consider it.
    [X] About that laundry list. In exchange for your help:
    -[X] She'll fully stop killing people.
    -[X] She'll release the souls unwillingly taken.
    -[X] She'll help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
    -[X] She'll help us with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
    --[X] If so, reveal de-Witching plans.
Click to expand...
 
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Onmur said:
(I'm not certain why we said 'no preconditions' when 'no killing' was a thing I thought we had agreed on. >_> )
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Click to shrink...
Apparently that was a late alteration?
Kaizuki said:
[X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
-[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, cut to voting.
-[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
-[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.


Okay???
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But we apparently didn't actually get to address the rest of it that made the statement make sense, because Rionna just doesn't give a fuck.
 
Godwinson said:
Apparently that was a late alteration?

But we apparently didn't actually get to address the rest of it that made the statement make sense, because Rionna just doesn't give a fuck.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
At the same time, going from the vote line, I would expect Sabrina to not stop talking midway through, and bring up the postconditions thing before Riona could pitch in. :/
 
In this spot right now, where is a vote for a strong conversation?
The way to get her talking, not on her scripted failure narrative, but on our topics, is to break her guard.

Her defense is strong. We need two things for a strong counter.

* Bold truth, delivered by itself
* Real proof.

Rionna doesn't really want to believe, but with proof we can try to force her.

Do we want to prove "we will have post-conditions?"
or
Do we want to prove "Rionna can get something from us?"

We must put the bait out front. The other votes are mild, and lack power due to not putting the bait first.

I'm willing to say that we will help, by putting a comparison of Rionna and a witch in there. It messes with her self-justification, because she just isn't worse than a witch yet.

The very next thing to do is make that supported with proof.

The proof just so happens to be de-witching, so it also "shows her the money." We even have secondary proof.
 
[X] SaltyWaffles

I like the idea of phrasing it so revealing/bringing-her-in on dewitching plans and the juicy details (hope magic, quiescent seeds, etc) is phrased as a show of secrets and trust.... but after seemingly every big detailed plan has been short circuited by interruptions and Rionna-IDGAF-attude, we really need the plan to start with something that'll make her shut up a moment and /then/ give context. And maybe a little more effort of "If you could bother with the patience for a red-eye flight over hiring a teleporter, you can let me finish a damn sentance" from Sabrina, if we want to get anywhere at all.
 
Wording changes. Commited the horrible sin of going over the 150 words limit.

Exactly 151 words. I'm evil.

[X] Not a lie. There's thing you want in exchange for your help after her problem is solved.
-[X] And yes, you'll stop her from killing anybody in the meanwhile.
-[X] But hold that thought...

[X] She looks like she's got something to say?
-[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations.
-[X] Try to stop her if this turns unproductive.

[X] Insist that you can help. Helping people in difficult situations, like her, is what you were made for.
-[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
-[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually consider it.

[X] What you'd ask of her:
-[X] To help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
-[X] To help you with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
-[X] To stop killing people and release the souls unwillingly taken.
--[X] Honestly, wouldn't she want to stop?
-[X] If agreed on the secrecy point, reveal de-Witching plans.

The real problem with this plan, is if Homu finds out about us calling Oriko a friend. Truly. But then again, I think we commited when we asked her and Kirika for hugs.
 
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I don't know if you can read this Rionna but it's a goddamn mess in here. So long as you stop when the moment arises you have nothing to fear though.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 13, 2018 at 5:49 PM, finished with 22012 posts and 186 votes.
  • [X] Not a lie. There's thing you want in exchange for your help after her problem is solved.
    -[X] And yes, you'll stop her from killing anybody in the meanwhile.
    -[X] But hold that thought...
    [X] She looks like she's got something to say?
    -[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations.
    -[X] Try to stop her if this turns unproductive.
    [X] Insist that you can help. Helping people in difficult situations, like her, is what you were made for.
    -[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
    -[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actuallyconsider it.
    [X] What you'd ask of her:
    -[X] To help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
    -[X] To help you with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
    -[X] To stop killing people and release the souls unwillingly taken.
    --[X] Honestly, wouldn't she want to stop?
    -[X] If agreed on the secrecy point, reveal de-Witching plans.
    ... and 5 more.
    [x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was pushed by circumstance to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
    -[x] If I manage to help you, if the things you treasure are safe, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?
    [x] My whole goal is to help people. And if that's not something you trust, then trust that I'm working on some really tricky problems -like dewitching- and would appreciate some assistance.
    [X] She doesn't get it, does she?
    -[X] You don't need preconditions. You'll help her, because you'll make the world a slightly better place by doing so. And because you'll be able to get her to agree to things afterwards.
    --[X] When people have something they'd watch the world burn before endangering, you don't open negotiations by demanding they endanger it. You open negotiations by ensuring its safety.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable (ideally following this ordering if possible). If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    [X] She doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and nor does she think you deserve to die.
    -[X] If she argues this, point out it never had to come to a fight. She's been doing this for years - if she'd wanted to kill you, she easily could have by now.
    [X] Nor is it that you can't help her. It's because what she's trying to do is so important to her that the risk of trusting someone is too much for her.
    -[X] If she argues this, refute her. You are the only person she's ever found who can use the power she wants. She came over here on a rumour.
    [X] You're her best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe she's been betrayed before, but there are things she just can't do alone, no matter how determined she is. No matter how strong she is.
    [X] You don't like what she does, sure. Maybe there are even more horrible things you don't even know about. But there's almost always a reason, and it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve help.
    [X] "Please let me help you, Rionna mag Aoidhe."
    [x] Because the truth is... you need her help, too.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Explain Clear Seeds: the sheer quantity of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, how you've tried feeding this one hope magic and it seems to be accepting it.
    -[x] It might be possible to turn a witch back into a girl. This might be the first step.
    [X] Godwinson
    [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [X] It isn't a lie. You want Riona to stop but you can settle for postconditions.
    [X] But what is Riona's problem she keeps in Edinburgh anyway? Somthing to cleanse from grief? You're working on cleansing enchantments and can refresh Grief Seeds indefinitely. Dewitching? You've been working on that and gotten some results
    -[x] If Riona shows interest or challenge us to our claim, bring the Clear Seed again and let her examine it. Explain technical differences between Grief Seeds and Clear Seeds (clear seeds feel calmer, etc). After that, insist on the question about what's in Edinburgh.
    [X] Onmar
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    [X] Simultaneously: Homura, Nadia, Sayaka
    -[X] Apologize to Nadia for being a bad host.
    -[X] Explain the situation.
    -[X] Don't let her try to help - You have it under control and the girls she's bringing need peace and quiet more than anything.
    [X] Simultaneously: Oriko
    -[X] Implement Mami's suggestion - explain your problem, ask for some seer mysteriosity.
    [x] Simultaneously: Hijiri
    -[x] Goals:
    --[X] Be empathybrina
    --[X] Get Hijiri thinking constructively about her future. Good therapy and will discourage short-sighted backstab attempts.
    -[x] Potential specifics:
    --[X] Ask her what she's thinking about.
    --[X] Help her think about what she wants to do with her life.
    [X] Simultaneously: Mami ribbons!
    -[x] Goals:
    --[X] Find Yuuri first - the less Pleiades exposure the better.
    --[X] Soul-snugggles with mami <3
    --[X] Don't get backstabbed.
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
    [X] Yes, you despise it. Your offer is not a lie, though.
    [X] You simply believe that she has a reason for this.
    -[X] And that if her problem is solved, she won't have that reason anymore. She'll stop.
    [X] Are you wrong?
    [X] At some point, sing only my railgun
    [X] Partially concede her point. You suppose her continuing to take souls while working together would be an issue. You would not expect anything further unless you can deliver. You've got a laundry list of demands you expect her to comply afteryou've helped solve her problem.
    -[X] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.
    -[X] But hold that thought...
    [X] She looks like she's got something to say?
    -[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations, both in speech and action.
    -[X] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.
    [X] Insist that you can help. It's your purpose, what you feel you were made for.
    -[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
    -[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actuallyconsider it.
    [X] About that laundry list. In exchange for your help:
    -[X] She'll fully stop killing people.
    -[X] She'll release the souls unwillingly taken.
    -[X] She'll help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
    -[X] She'll help us with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
    --[X] If so, reveal de-Witching plans.
    [X] Calm down Sabrina. Alright, let's do this.
    [X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
    [X] Hypervene Intervene. Get Sayaka's help if necessary.
    [X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
    [X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
    - [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
    - [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister.
    - [X] The memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. It's not doing Hijiri any good right now anyway. If she gives it up as a show of good faith, then we can help her find a solution to this mess.
    [X] Cleanse.
    [X] Mediate. Rephrase their sentences to each other so nothing is lost in shouted translation.
    - [X] No hitting. Hitting is bad, so make sure they don't hit each other.
    - [X] Let them explain themselves. Gotta understand each other to agree or compromise, y'know?
    [X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. That's mean. Hijiri is terrified. And look, we look like we're ganging up on her.
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] Get decision paralysis and let Mami do the talking
    [x] Now
    - [x] Ask about metabombing Sayaka and Hitomi
    - [x] All relevant points. Answer all questions they have
    - [x] At Mami's home as soon as convenient bluntly over tea
    [X] Find out the status of Tsuchiya Ritsuko from Kyuubey, later.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X] Vebyast - Because I 've read too much Mao to ever be comfortable voting for the red army
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] If at any point she displays surprise, cut to voting. If she tries to leave, cut to voting.
    [X] Be pensive. Body language should be asking a capital-Q Question.
    [X] What does she live for?
    -[X] It would be easy to make her out as the classic utterly powerful, knowledgeable, and selfish magical girl.
    -[X] Except that that requires she have something to be selfish about.
    -[X] And whatever that is, it's pretty clearly back home, with the majority of her shades guarding it. Not her city.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] Hear her out if she explains.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Can the Souls be restored or otherwise released to wherever they go after death?
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportunity to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    --[X] Perhaps we seem too idealistic and naive, and we know that sometimes a horrible criminal just can't be redeemed. Still, we want to try.
    [X] Annoy her into submission
    -[X] Make her go limpet on us for safety measure
    [x] Apotheosise
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [X]Kyubey​
    -[X]That's awfully snide coming from the one responsible for this mess.​
    -[X]Inquire as to whether it actually needs something, and if it can do that somewhere where it isn't distressing Mami; we'd love to chat, but we're awfully busy right now.​
    --[X]If necessary, insist by way of remove incubator REMOVE INCUBATOR​
    [X]Hitomi​
    -[X]Check status of apartment for Shiogama girls​
    [X]Niko​
    -[X]Ask how she's holding up​
    -[X]When she's up for it, we've been itching to talk shop with a fellow scientist-- in private, of course.​
    --[X]If she seems receptive, make an appointment to talk later.
    [x] Payment:
    -[x] Call O&K. Explain request.
    -[x] Separate line, Homura. Fukushima's rates, any advice?
    -[x] Do NOT let Yuki see you distracted.
    [x] Business:
    -[x] Ask to see the location.
    -[x] Finalize:
    --[x] Agree to provide antimagic enchantments.
    --[x] Mind Homura's advice. Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[x] Discuss hiring them again in the future.
    --[x] Ask about payments/services they're interested in. You're assembling a team to tackle Walpurgisnacht.
    [x] Chat topics (intersperse as appropriate):
    -[x] Ask if Nishimura, Koizumi, and Akiyama are alright.
    -[x] "Supervillains"... just volcano base aesthetic, or something more? What other groups are in town?
    -[x] The active soul in Grief Seeds "hibernates" when you Clear them. Whenever you visit, you'd like to check if that's changed.
    [x] Telepathy Rin.
    -[x] You've got the impression something's wrong. Anything you can help, or...?
    [X] Kyuubey:
    -[x] Dump Grief. Keep two seeds' worth.
    [x] Spar
    - [x] Agree
    -- [x] Rules of nature engagement
    --- [x] Go all out (barring gem shots)
    [X] Defense pact.
    -[X] Discuss proactive befriending.
    --[x] Clarify that while you'd appreciate help, megucatarian aid and peacekeeping operations will not be obligated from them by the treaty.
    --[x] Ask if she'd mind sharing her address book. More allies, more clear seeds distributed, and you'd prefer to preemptively talk down conflicts.
    -[x] If no problems, sign the treaty.
    [X] Yuki's Nexus
    -[X] Homura's suggestion.
    -[x] Nudge Sayaka: Power copying?
    [X] Move on to transfer Airi and the antimagic enchantment.
    -[x] Check if Sakura can handle the antimagic. Else, you or Yuki can handle transport.
    [X] Before you forget, ask Kirika to check the IRCs Nadia provided.
    [x] Rin and Sakura:
    -[x] Test for interest in legit moneymaking. You have a contact with. It's something for them to do, if nothing else.
    -[x] Thank them again before parting ways.
    [x] Thank Yuki for helping Rin.
    -[x] Ask if she accepts hugs.
    [X] Never mind.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Ask if Sayaka can copy their powers
    [x] your trapped! quirk, you must escape!
    [X] I think probably could handle it. Or at least you could with some help. With me around the grief spiral isn't as much of an issue as it would be for others. Even still, this is the kind of secret that can completely change your worldview, the kind that can make you a different person. If it turns out that you can't handle it, well... With me around you probably won't outright die, but you may very well live long enough to go crazy.
    -[X] But that's only half of the issue. The other part of it is whether or not you can handle the burden of secrecy that will be on your shoulders. I don't mean any offense, but you are a little impulsive, and most others definitely won't be able to handle it.
    --[X] Anyway, food for thought.
    [X] "Honestly Sayaka, I don't know how you react to this, and that's scary for me. On your own, knowing this would weigh you down, and I'm not sure if you could hold on.
    [X] "I believe that you can survive this, especially if you promise to talk with Homura and myself about how you are doing. I just need you to understand that you would not be the only one hurt if this doesn't stay a secret."
    [X] During the Fight
    - [X] See how much Sayaka has improved against familiars.
    - [X] Provide some assistance against the witch, but don't leave Sayaks feeling useless with nothing to do
    - [X] Keep enough active grief on hand to prevent traumatic witch injury AND Sayaka going berserk against what she might learn is a fallen meguca
    [x] This will change how she sees her own existence, and that of magical girls, for the worst; but yes, you think she can handle knowing the truth, whether she thinks she'll be able to keep the secret without letting it take control of her life and interfere with her, Madoka and Hitomi's friendship is up to her to decide; but she must know, you're working in fixing the issue, and while she could also help, and it would be appreciated, you're pretty sure you can do it on your own, so she must not worry about it if she decides not knowing.
    -[X] The reason you wanted to tell her is because you don't want her to learn it throught Kyubey or other magical girls without you there to alleviate the blow; she could also help you prevent this ever happening to Mami, and you want to trust her not to be te one that does something that'll hurt her that much.
    --[X] But you also fear her obssesing over it and allienating Madoka, Hitomi, Kyosuke and her parents without realizing it; no matter what, your first priority will be that your friends are happy and you don't want to throw a wrench at their friendship.
    -[X] Homura also fears that she may do something that makes Madoka want to become a magical girl, she cares about her, and about all of you even if she doesn't know how to show it, for reasons you can't tell her.
    [X] Null
    [X] "Kyouko Sakura, your wish has been granted! You have overcome entropy! Now you must become a magical girl, and fight alongside Mami and Homura and Sayaka and me to defeat witches and save the world!"
    [X] Mika
    -[x] You have Plans and you're not sure how she should fit into them, so could you just tell her them and she could help you figure that out?
    --[x] The Best Exotic Mamigold Hotel: refugee camp, homeless shelter, jobs program
    --[x] Broad distribution of Seeds
    --[x] Confederating existing groups into a loose world government
    --[x] Military intervention in the worst cases cough Iowa cough
    --[X] Walpurgisnacht.
    [X] Talk about Clear Seeds. Explain that you're distributing them to groups you trust, as a stopgap measure. Show Hildegarde and Aurora.
    -[X] Share your observations, explain your procedures. Ask Riona for her professional opinion.
    --[X] Explain the need for a more moral solution, and your hopes for, eventually, after much study, de-Witching. Ask for her help.
    [X] If she brings it up again: Share your theory of being created by magic: The unusual state of your soul, and having personal amnesia... but significant knowledge of the magical girl system, enough to know to make your wish.
    -[X] Ask what Riona's powers see in you.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 13, 2018 at 9:45 PM, finished with 77 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Not a lie. There's thing you want in exchange for your help after her problem is solved.
    -[X] And yes, you'll stop her from killing anybody in the meanwhile.
    -[X] But hold that thought...
    [X] She looks like she's got something to say?
    -[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations.
    -[X] Try to stop her if this turns unproductive.
    [X] Insist that you can help. Helping people in difficult situations, like her, is what you were made for.
    -[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
    -[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actuallyconsider it.
    [X] What you'd ask of her:
    -[X] To help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
    -[X] To help you with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
    -[X] To stop killing people and release the souls unwillingly taken.
    --[X] Honestly, wouldn't she want to stop?
    -[X] If agreed on the secrecy point, reveal de-Witching plans.
    [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    [x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was pushed by circumstance to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
    -[x] If I manage to help you, if the things you treasure are safe, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?
    [x] My whole goal is to help people. And if that's not something you trust, then trust that I'm working on some really tricky problems -like dewitching- and would appreciate some assistance.
    [X] She doesn't get it, does she?
    -[X] You don't need preconditions. You'll help her, because you'll make the world a slightly better place by doing so. And because you'll be able to get her to agree to things afterwards.
    --[X] When people have something they'd watch the world burn before endangering, you don't open negotiations by demanding they endanger it. You open negotiations by ensuring its safety.
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] It isn't a lie. You want Riona to stop but you can settle for postconditions.
    [X] But what is Riona's problem she keeps in Edinburgh anyway? Somthing to cleanse from grief? You're working on cleansing enchantments and can refresh Grief Seeds indefinitely. Dewitching? You've been working on that and gotten some results
    -[x] If Riona shows interest or challenge us to our claim, bring the Clear Seed again and let her examine it. Explain technical differences between Grief Seeds and Clear Seeds (clear seeds feel calmer, etc). After that, insist on the question about what's in Edinburgh.
    [X] Yes, you despise it. Your offer is not a lie, though.
    [X] You simply believe that she has a reason for this.
    -[X] And that if her problem is solved, she won't have that reason anymore. She'll stop.
    [X] Are you wrong?
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
    [X] Partially concede her point. You suppose her continuing to take souls while working together would be an issue. You would not expect anything further unless you can deliver. You've got a laundry list of demands you expect her to comply afteryou've helped solve her problem.
    -[X] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.
    -[X] But hold that thought...
    [X] She looks like she's got something to say?
    -[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations, both in speech and action.
    -[X] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.
    [X] Insist that you can help. It's your purpose, what you feel you were made for.
    -[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
    -[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actuallyconsider it.
    [X] About that laundry list. In exchange for your help:
    -[X] She'll fully stop killing people.
    -[X] She'll release the souls unwillingly taken.
    -[X] She'll help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
    -[X] She'll help us with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
    --[X] If so, reveal de-Witching plans.
Click to expand...
 
Onmur said:
Wording changes. Commited the horrible sin of going over the 150 words limit.

Exactly 151 words. I'm evil.

[X] Not a lie. There's thing you want in exchange for your help after her problem is solved.
-[X] And yes, you'll stop her from killing anybody in the meanwhile.
-[X] But hold that thought...

[X] She looks like she's got something to say?
-[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations.
-[X] Try to stop her if this turns unproductive.

[X] Insist that you can help. Helping people in difficult situations, like her, is what you were made for.
-[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
-[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually consider it.

[X] What you'd ask of her:
-[X] To help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
-[X] To help you with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
-[X] To stop killing people and release the souls unwillingly taken.
--[X] Honestly, wouldn't she want to stop?
-[X] If agreed on the secrecy point, reveal de-Witching plans.

The real problem with this plan, is if Homu finds out about us calling Oriko a friend. Truly. But then again, I think we commited when we asked her and Kirika for hugs.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

*blinks half-dead-ly*

I... I think I like it?

Tomorrow dammit
 
[X] Bring up de-Witching
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 13, 2018 at 9:49 PM, finished with 78 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Not a lie. There's thing you want in exchange for your help after her problem is solved.
    -[X] And yes, you'll stop her from killing anybody in the meanwhile.
    -[X] But hold that thought...
    [X] She looks like she's got something to say?
    -[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations.
    -[X] Try to stop her if this turns unproductive.
    [X] Insist that you can help. Helping people in difficult situations, like her, is what you were made for.
    -[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
    -[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actuallyconsider it.
    [X] What you'd ask of her:
    -[X] To help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
    -[X] To help you with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
    -[X] To stop killing people and release the souls unwillingly taken.
    --[X] Honestly, wouldn't she want to stop?
    -[X] If agreed on the secrecy point, reveal de-Witching plans.
    [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    [x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was pushed by circumstance to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
    -[x] If I manage to help you, if the things you treasure are safe, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?
    [x] My whole goal is to help people. And if that's not something you trust, then trust that I'm working on some really tricky problems -like dewitching- and would appreciate some assistance.
    [X] She doesn't get it, does she?
    -[X] You don't need preconditions. You'll help her, because you'll make the world a slightly better place by doing so. And because you'll be able to get her to agree to things afterwards.
    --[X] When people have something they'd watch the world burn before endangering, you don't open negotiations by demanding they endanger it. You open negotiations by ensuring its safety.
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] It isn't a lie. You want Riona to stop but you can settle for postconditions.
    [X] But what is Riona's problem she keeps in Edinburgh anyway? Somthing to cleanse from grief? You're working on cleansing enchantments and can refresh Grief Seeds indefinitely. Dewitching? You've been working on that and gotten some results
    -[x] If Riona shows interest or challenge us to our claim, bring the Clear Seed again and let her examine it. Explain technical differences between Grief Seeds and Clear Seeds (clear seeds feel calmer, etc). After that, insist on the question about what's in Edinburgh.
    [X] Yes, you despise it. Your offer is not a lie, though.
    [X] You simply believe that she has a reason for this.
    -[X] And that if her problem is solved, she won't have that reason anymore. She'll stop.
    [X] Are you wrong?
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
Click to expand...
 
Kaizuki said:
*blinks half-dead-ly*

I... I think I like it?

Tomorrow dammit
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@Redshirt Army

Kai has totally expressed a preference for vote to contain more than a hundred and fifty words.

This is certainly a thing that happened; the reign of the hundred and fifty words votes is nearly over, and us who support the higher than one hundred and fifty words votes are growing stronger, and no amount of redshirts can stem the tide of change.

I wanted to inform you of these current events so you might better prepare for the complete upturning of your entire world, in the hopes that you, a fellow red avatar user, might manage to land on your feet.

How dare you,

Onmur.
 
Onmur said:
@Redshirt Army

Kai has totally expressed a preference for vote to contain more than a hundred and fifty words.

This is certainly a thing that happened; the reign of the hundred and fifty words votes is nearly over, and us who support the higher than one hundred and fifty words votes are growing stronger, and no amount of redshirts can stem the tide of change.

I wanted to inform you of these current events so you might better prepare for the complete upturning of your entire world, in the hopes that you, a fellow red avatar user, might manage to land on your feet.

How dare you,

Onmur.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's treason, then.
 
Honestly, I have major issues with Onmur's plan even beyond the tongue-in-cheek poking at the wordcount limit. In a variety of places it seems to be phrased in a way intended to deliberately aggravate Rionna.

[X] You're not lying. You'd expect her to try doing better after her problem is solved. Doesn't she want to?
-[X] And yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.

[X] Continue to try to coax out details about what she wants our power for. Would enchantments be sufficient? What does she want?
-[X] Encourage her to talk. Try to keep things productive.

[X] As you deem appropriate, bring up what she could help you with.
-[X] Help a friend of ours (Wish rejection).
-[X] If she agrees to not spread word, de-witching.
 
Redshirt Army said:
[X] Continue to try to coax out details about what she wants our power for. Would enchantments be sufficient? What does she want?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Is it strange that I'm glad she's not willing to extract our Soul just for our powers? I think it's weird and very disturbing and indicative of just how fucked up Riona sounds that this could be considered a point in her favor.

... dunno why I brought it up.
 
Raiseth said:
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Onmur the Wise? I thought not. It's not a story the SV forumites would tell you. It's a QQ legend.

Pfft. :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Excuse me.

*Kicks Raiseth into QQ*

Redshirt Army said:
Honestly, I have major issues with Onmur's plan even beyond the tongue-in-cheek poking at the wordcount limit. In a variety of places it seems to be phrased in a way intended to deliberately aggravate Rionna.

[X] You're not lying. You'd expect her to try doing better after her problem is solved. Doesn't she want to?
-[X] And yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.

[X] Continue to try to coax out details about what she wants our power for. Would enchantments be sufficient? What does she want?
-[X] Encourage her to talk. Try to keep things productive.

[X] As you deem appropriate, bring up what she could help you with.
-[X] Help a friend of ours (Wish rejection).
-[X] If she agrees to not spread word, de-witching.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As expected of the master of word reduction.

This... doesn't sound... bad?

The middle part I'm not sure about. I got a feeling I can't quite put my finger on, that Riona might want to say something, so this is really:
[X] She looks like she's got something to say?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Really actually to see if she's got something she wants to share, + prompting if needed. If she doesn't, though... I'm not sure whether this should be skipped to more quickly get at the de-Witching point.

Also, I do want to keep insisting that we can help for real, simply as base persuasion, throughout our chat, though I admit my vote paragraph there wasn't quite shiny and polished.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Honestly, I have major issues with Onmur's plan even beyond the tongue-in-cheek poking at the wordcount limit. In a variety of places it seems to be phrased in a way intended to deliberately aggravate Rionna.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So here's a more detailed rundown of what I meant by this:

[X] Not a lie. There's things you want in exchange for your help after her problem is solved.
-[X] And yes, you'll stop her from killing anybody in the meanwhile.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"Things we want in exchange" is pretty awkward phrasing, given what we want is for her to use the opportunity to be a better person to... be a better person. It's not really an "exchange", since the whole point is that even if she isn't willing to commit to being better now, she hopefully will by the end of our efforts to redeem her.

The second line can do with a bit of rephrasing. I think the condescension in "you'll stop her" is gonna be offputting.

-[X] But hold that thought...
[X] She looks like she's got something to say?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No.

No, she really, really doesn't. What part of the previous update made you think that Rionna was about to open up a heart-to-heart of her own volition? She's been suuuper cagey about what she actually is protecting, and has repeatedly tried to call quits on this whole conversation. Her only response so far to "tell me so I can help you" was "no". All of the pre-made vote options involve Sabrina prying and poking to keep things moving.

Basically:

Onmur said:
I got a feeling I can't quite put my finger on, that Riona might want to say something
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't get this impression at all. Please explain it to me.

Most of the rest is fine, except for one bit...
[X] Insist that you can help. Helping people in difficult situations, like her, is what you were made for.
-[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Sabrina gets mad and angry when the votes use angry tone and phrasing. And it's basically never helpful. Remember all the backtracking we had to do after we blew up at Kyouko?

With that in mind, while sniping at Rionna's habits and moral code being "bullshit" might be cathartic, it seems really, really unlikely to do anything good for negotiations here.
 
Mami right outside your privacy bubble, leaning against your Grief with her eyes closed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If there's one thing I don't regret, it's keeping in touch with Mami through pseudo Grief hugs.

What's Mami doing, btw? Relaxing for a moment? Done with her enchanting? Felt us tense through the Grief and is actually on alert?

Redshirt Army said:
No, she really, really doesn't. What part of the previous update made you think that Rionna was about to open up a heart-to-heart of her own volition? She's been suuuper cagey about what she actually is protecting, and has repeatedly tried to call quits on this whole conversation. Her only response so far to "tell me so I can help you" was "no". All of the pre-made vote options involve Sabrina prying and poking to keep things moving.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I didn't say a heart-to-heart, but the last line, coupled with the vote prompt:
previous updoot said:
"Liar," Rionna says, completely without rancor. "Y' despise what I've done, and you want me to stop."

[] Answer her accusation
[] Bring up de-Witching
[] Ask her what she's talking about
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is a change. She's been aggressive or defensive the whole conversation, and played her whole act. Now she 'caught' us lying, and her tone seems to have changed.

I feel, for once, she might actually be honest about her thoughts, rather than her actions for a moment. So far she's spat facts at our face and we've guessed at her reasons. I feel she might let up a bit. Also,
I said:
-[X] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Also afraid she might be giving up on the discussion and trying to drop it.

Redshirt Army said:
Sabrina gets mad and angry when the votes use angry tone and phrasing. And it's basically never helpful. Remember all the backtracking we had to do after we blew up at Kyouko?

With that in mind, while sniping at Rionna's habits and moral code being "bullshit" might be cathartic, it seems really, really unlikely to do anything good for negotiations here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm not going for mad, I just don't find a better descriptive word to use than 'bullshit'. :p
 
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