Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Kaizuki said:

Oh, this is way simpler than I'd expected. And went way better than I expected.



Double potential meanings here. Potentially this could be read as "I'm not allowing anyone else to come anywhere near the thing I'm protecting."





Those two quotes are from an early essay, where I was still arguing we'd need to kill this girl. But, they're about to be very relevant.

Draft one:

[X] She doesn't get it, does she?
-[X] You don't need preconditions. You'll help her, because you'll make the world a slightly better place by doing so. And because you'll be able to get her to agree to things afterwards.
--[X] When people have something they'd watch the world burn before endangering, you don't open negotiations by demanding they endanger it. You open negotiations by ensuring its safety.

Left unsaid, of course, is that if we help her and the fallout doesn't result in us getting all the must-haves on our checklist, we'll kill her then.

But if we're correct that Rionna's sister is the issue in question, then bringing her sister back may very simply accomplish everything we want, depending on what kind of person her sister is. Or, at the least it will change her priorities in some manner. How? Who knows? But, as I think everyone here will agree, it's worth a shot. We must try, not just for this girl who has done such terrible things, but, presumably, for her sister who has not.

Nothing is guaranteed here. But, I do think we are on the right track.

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On record, regardless of the existence of this post I -am- out of town and getting shitty sleep. So, don't expect things from me until at least Tuesday, probably Wednesday, even though I probably will be posting before then.

I would like to ask her, doesn't she want to stop? Because really, I really doubt she likes her lot in life.


[] Clarify: If she accepts your help, you'd want her to not kill anyone while you're working together. If you do manage to help her? Then yes, you expect her to stop.
-[] Doesn't she want to stop? She doesn't seem to like doing what she does.


After that... Having trouble putting thoughts in order. We'd really need to find a way for Riona to trust us... despite the fact there's no reason for her to do so.


[] Promise you can help, if she give you a real chance. Helping people, people like her, is what you felt you were made for.

[] You understand you're asking for a lot of trust.
-[] Ask for an exchange: She keeps your secret, and you keep hers. None of this leaves this bubble.
-[] If agreed, share your goals of breaking KB's system, of de-Witching. It's something you hope she can help you with.

Think like selfish, inflexible Rionna, and then try to break through to her using that understanding. I think we will learn more by not focusing on conditionals of a future that is hard to describe. Keep it about her.

[X] Before Rionna decides her end, she needs to explore the truth of what Sabrina is saying, and she can.

[X] Sabrina wants to save even witches. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. The witches don't pay us anything.
[X] Rionna must have used countless powers until now. Another Shade can't help her.
-[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
[X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
[X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?


These are trending in ways that seem productive:

Redshirt Army said:

[ ] I do want you to stop. But I won't make it a precondition of my help. If I refused to help any magical girl who did something awful because the system we're in forced them to... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
-[ ] Nobody sets out to be the villain of their own story, after all. If I can help you, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards, and you still won't stop... then it'll be a different story.

Something like this, I think.

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Vebyast said:

[] People don't do horrible things for no reason. When someone has a strong reason to do something, force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem.
[] So you're trying to figure out what her underlying problem is, because so far the only precondition you have ever demanded is that people use what you give them to do good.
[] Does she need help with de-witching research? Does she have a shade that needs to be reinstantiated instead of released? Something else?

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Onmur said:

-[] Doesn't she want to stop? She doesn't seem to like doing what she does.

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She honestly doesn't want to stop, because trading isn't "real" to her, and her "needs" outweigh the rest of the world. Is this the way to rate the line here?

Onmur said:

-[] If agreed, share your goals of breaking KB's system, of de-Witching. It's something you hope she can help you with.

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Better if the De-witching is given freely? I would think that is our real position on that matter, in fact. Asking her to trade for it isn't a bad ploy to use, but it is an ineffective ploy to gain our other wants.
Sabrina does, in fact help for free. So we could try to do that.

Battleship_Fusou said:

[]
-[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.

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This kinda gets there. Stating that saving is literally part of our wish might help?

[X] Vebyast

Rionna prefers to get to the point, and this pretty much puts "de-witching" and it's shade analogue on the map.

Actually, thinking further, I think we might have a chance, like this.

Can we assume Riona doesn't actually want to be a magical killer and slaver, that she feels she's doing what she's doing because she feels she has no choice?

Shouldn't we question her on this?

All of her act, of coming up and throwing her sins in our face, is she judging us for judging her, or is she judging herself?

Can we encourage her to do better for her own sake, rather than for ours?



[] Be Encouraging Brina.

[] Question her: Doesn't she want to stop?
-[] You feel she doesn't like what she's doing. She's resigned, but if she had a chance to do better? You think she would take it in a heartbeat.
-[] You feel she feels forced to do this alone; that if she trusts somebody, she'll regret it.


[] Helping people in difficult situations is what you were made for.
-[] Promise: You can help her if she gives you a real chance.
-[] Acknowledge: You're asking for a lot of trust.
--[] Sometimes, that's what it takes. Ask her to help you, help her.


[] Clarify, if she accepts your help, you expect her to not kill anyone while you work together.
-[] Once you manage and help her fix her problem? Then you do expect her to do better.

[] Ask her to think about it, there's something else you want to talk about:
-[] Ask if she can keep a secret.
--[] If she agrees, talk about de-Witching, and how you hope she could help with it.



Short version:

- Encourage Riona: She wants to do better, she doesn't like what she does.
- Acknowledge we're asking for a lot of trust. Promise to help.
- Clarify our previous vote's last line.
- Ask her to think about it...
- Ask if we can trust her: Bring up de-Witching.

Onmur said:

[] Ask her to think about it, there's something else you want to talk about:
-[] Ask if she can keep a secret.
--[] If she agrees, talk about de-Witching, and how you hope she could help with it.

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Putting this as lead, making is first and best, will get more of a non-hostile reaction? It might be correct, or it might simply display us in a way she can understand.

To everyone saying her slavery is bad and needs to end immediately: that is nothing compared to the scale of the entire MG system. It's painful, but we need to lay the groundwork working within the system before we overthrow it.
Just like how we can't immediately go flying around the world confiscating every Grief Seed to stop their suffering until we have a usable substitute, or declare war on the Incubators to stop them from damning more girls to a life of battle, we need to temporarily accept Rionna's Shade use and work with her so long as we can't convince her it's not necessary any more.

More than anything, we need to give her the benefit of the doubt that she doesn't really like what she's doing and that she'll stop of her own volition after we've made things better enough.

If she keeps stubbornly refusing to release them even after we've thoroughly fixed her situation, well then we'll have a problem. But, for meta reasons, I highly doubt that will be the case.

@Onmur: This isn't a therapy meeting, but a first meeting between potential co-workers. I fear she'd shut us out if we force her to confront her issues right now.
Let's deal with the problem in Edinburgh first before trying to deal with symptoms.
Rionna is too weary for emotional arguments (resignation, hope) to score properly.

So, reading the latest update, I find myself wondering about a couple of things. Not necesarily things I want Sabrina to ask, more just things I'm curious about as to Rionna's character.

First of, about the whole "you despise what we did" thing, Rionna, I gotta ask: what did you expect? You profess to taking people's souls with a heavy implication that you took a good number of those against people's wills (obviously), enslave them and use them to do whatever the heck you want with, all while expressing not even a hit of remorse or guilt over this and even all but gloating about it in Sabrina's face. How did you expect her to react to that? Did you think she'd be pleased? That she'd want your autograph, what? I don't care if you're not very social, girl, one can have the social skills of a baseball bat and they'd still realise that admitting to taking and enslaving people's souls is a pretty big social faux pass that would get you on most people's shit list! I'm left wondering if she's really this ignorant, or just stupid.

Secondly, she keeps coming back to "gimme your soul", why is she so fixated on that? Why does she need it? And what does owning Sabrina's soul have that Sabrina couldn't give her willingly?

And finally, I really am wondering: how did Rionna expect this whole meeting to go? What were her expectations leading up to this? What, did she really expect to just waltz in, establish if Sabrina's genuine or not and then take her soul if she was, then merrily skip back to Edinburgh like some kind of messed up shopping trip? I honestly can't tell, but it certainly feels that way at times.

Doesn't help that we really still know basically nothing, nothing vital at least that would help us decide to gem this menace or if she's someone worth saving. Is there a clause in hostile magical girls' contract that states they need to be as vague as can be, or is it just a side-effect of the whole contracting thing, ala Worm's shard conflict drive? I know they're teenagers and that the teenage brain has been scientifically proven to be malfunctional and irrational, but come on, there's a limit to how unhelpful, stubborn and obnoxious you can be before hormones are no longer a sufficient explanation.

Once again, props to Sabrina for her patience, I'm starting to think it's one of her super powers at this point.

Nachtigall said:

@Onmur: This isn't a therapy meeting, but a first meeting between potential co-workers. I fear she'd shut us out if we force her to confront her issues right now.
Let's deal with the problem in Edinburgh first before trying to deal with symptoms.

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I think you're missing the point. Therapy?

We need Riona to trust us somehow, we need to find out how to encourage her towards doing so. Otherwise she won't open up, won't tell us what her problem is.


Re-reading the last part of the update...

Firnagzen said:

"Liar," Rionna says, completely without rancor. "Y' despise what I've done, and you want me to stop."

[] Answer her accusation
[] Bring up de-Witching
[] Ask her what she's talking about
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)

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I wonder if Riona might be willing to open up a bit, right now.

Tempted to just vote:

[] Ask her what she's talking about

Holy fuck, JUST BRING UP OUR DEWITCHING PROGRESS ALREADY.

Stop freaking skirting around the key point and just SAY IT.

[X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress

[] Ask her what she's talking about.
-[] Encourage Riona to talk.
-[] If appropriate, ask prodding questions:
--[] Why did she tell us all this?
--[] What does she think will happen, if she tells us what her big problem is?
--[] What did she expect of us?
--[] Question the why of her actions and goals in general. Find Riona's purpose and reasons.

[] If Riona stops talking:

[] Clarify: If she lets us help, we'll help.
-[] We'll ask in return that she stops killing while we work together, and that she sees into releasing Souls unwillingly given after her problem is solved.

[] Ask her to consider letting us help. For real, none of this 'only way to help would be giving our soul' BS. Ask her to actually think about it.
-[] Meanwhile... ask if she can keep a secret. If so:
--[] Bring up de-Witching.

Onmur said:

[X] Ask her what she's talking about.
-[X] Encourage Riona to talk, open up if possible. If appropriate:
--[X] Question whether she wants to stop. She doesn't seem to like doing what she does.
--[X] She seems resigned, yet you think if she had a chance to do better, she'd take it in a heartbeat.
--[X] That's what we're here for. She doesn't have to do this alone.

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This can not go well. She will just go back into her shell and start threatening us again. After you've resigned yourself to doing horrible things because you "had to", it can be really difficult to accept that maybe you didn't actually "have to". Because that would mean you were responsible for all those horrible things, because you couldn't do a better job. It would mean she would have to accept responsibility for enslaving all those people. And she's strongly rejecting that, be it consciously or subconsciously.

This is our first talk with her. There is no way she will open up the deepest darkest corners of her soul to us right away. People don't do that. They evade personal questions and conceal their trauma. That's exactly what's happening now. We shouldn't pry too deep too soon if we don't want to irreparably ruin our relationship with her.

Right, is she rejecting a Clear Seed or isn't she? We have assumed she is, and I do NOT like to assume.

NitroFumetsu said:

Right, is she rejecting a Clear Seed or isn't she? We have assumed she is, and I do NOT like to assume.

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We rejected giving her one on the basis our standard terms would be a fight.

[X] Bring up de-Witching




its the main reason we wanted to talk to her, and if she is trying to save her sisters witch the one thing that can get through to her.

Also responding to her saying we despise her is a trap, we say the truth and she shuts us down. We feint understanding and she accuses us of being liars in disbelief. I have no time for these games... and that's not incense

I feel silly for not realizing sooner, but what every magical girl wants is to avoid being a Witch. Thus ultimately a Clear Seed doesn't prevent that, Grief is still generated and all that. Sabrina, being the one with the power, never has to rely on anyone or anything else to cleanse herself. So even with a Clear Seed, Riona would inevitably have to revisit Sabrina for refreshes- And if Sabrina dies while Riona is elsewhere, bye-bye freedom from fear.

Thus why she wants Sabrina's soul, to never worry about losing the best means of cleansing. So even if one insists a Clear Seed is fine, Riona knows they aren't infinite cleansing. Though that gets me thinking... Has Sabrina tried setting up automatic self-cleansing? Figuring that out pretty much ensures no accidental Witchout due to Griefspiral or Science Gone Wrong. I'd actually be surprised if Riona didn't assume Sabrina already knows how.

[x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was forced to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
-[x] If I manage to help you, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?
-[x] What is it that you're working towards, that you're gathering so many grief controllers for? Reversing the witch transformation? Trying to reinstate a wraith? Tell me.

Tweaking @Redshirt Army's phrasing slightly for clarity.


[x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was forced to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
-[x] If I manage to help you, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?
-[x] What is it that you're working towards, that you're gathering so many grief controllers for? Reversing the witch transformation? Trying to give a Shade a body again?

Thought:

"You could always refer false griefbenders to me for judgment. False Griefbenders unwilling to take my retirement should be frozen until the day witchification is cured."

[X] Onmur

Updating wording a bit to leave Firn more freedom of writing.


[] Ask her what she's talking about.
-[] Encourage Riona to talk. Ask simple, prodding questions as necessary. Don't push too much.
-[] Try to learn:
--[] Riona's expectations, past and present.
--[] Riona's reasons for her actions, and for telling us all this.

[] Afterwards:

[] Clarify: If she lets us help, we'll help.
-[] We'll ask:
--[] She stops killing while we work together.
--[] After her problem is solved, she stops killing and releases the unwillingly taken Souls.
-[] Ask her to consider letting us help. For real, none of this 'only way to help would be giving our soul' BS.
--[] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually think about it.

[] Meanwhile... ask if she can keep a secret. If so:
-[] Bring up de-Witching.