To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- No
- Not sure, that might be a case-by-case thing
- MDP is over on membership, NAP remains in place.
- I'm not sure how you'd reduce Harmony relations without just flat up smearing them. What has been reported by the Tauni and ISC has been evaluated by other powers.
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
It is almost like we need separate [Harmony Influence] and [Harmony Shenanigans] tags. If they get up to too clever stuff, that we can pick apart, but if they are as good as we think, than they are good at shenanagains.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
That's actually pretty interesting...does that mean the Harmony can affiliate Federation members, or vice versa?
That's a good point. No, not without narrative fiat. Adjusted response accordingly.
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That's the opinion of SDB. The Refit is something to keep us in the game for the decade it'll take to research, prototype, and build the first wave of the dedicated diplomacy ship.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Like the part where they admitted to involuntary euthanasia?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Now now, it's not involuntary anymore. I'm certain those patients signed the consent forms and agreed in a manner that totally didn't involve massive social pressure towards "choosing" suicide while held against their wills.
Changing the subject...anyone else a little worried by the lack of reports on the OSA corps? I'm especially curious to see if we can identify who was actually running them and where the corporate wolfpack turns up.
The choice of what ships do we order is a complex one that resulted in more then 20 designs that can be ordered(the proposed designed category on the wiki has 100+ pages now, with most being starfleet designs and a few designs for members).
Do we want the ships fast and go for refits, can they wait a few years and do we build a new P focused variant of a new ship or do we design a new ship for the role?
Do we go for the highest P per ship or the lowest cost per point of P?
Is just having a high P score enough or do we want other abilities for the ship as well?
Do we go for a single design or multiple designs that have different answers to the questions above?
I am sure that, say, Licori and their serfs are baffled by the atrocity of euthanizing people with incurable and dangerous mental diseases. It's not exactly sunshine and rainbows, and "incurable and dangerous" might mean many things, but it's not some great dark secret that would make people break diplomatic relationships.
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- Location
- Belgrade, Serbia
When they try something underhanded/illegal to hinder us or improve their standing and we uncover it. So far every time it has happened we, at best, managed to stop it, but never prove it was them. A man can dream.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I can actually see a fair number of Licori-as-I-imagine-them objecting, but it's not because of objections to the death penalty.
It's because of objections to the idea of that whole smothering blanket of social control and people carefully vetting your sanity.
However, even that objection is likely to come from the nobility. The Licori middle class might not like what they get, it might be a very poor fit for even those elements of their culture that would survive a homegrown revolution overthrowing the nobles... But it wouldn't be the first time that a demographic ideologically latched onto a social system that turned out to have more of a dark side than they wanted to believe.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Wait what? So, if someone (for example, us) attacks the HoH, our members could be obliged by treaty to defend them? And if someone attack the UFP, does that not mean that they attack all of our members, and therefore force HoH to defend us?
This reminds me strongly of how the First World War came to be.
I strongly urge our GMs to change this, both due to the possible consequences and because it makes very little sense. Members being affiliated to other powers is perfectly fine and sensible (they can keep the affiliate incomes even I would say), but foreign policy is surrendered to UFP as whole upon joining.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Utter coincidence. We are way further developed.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Mutual Defence Pact is Allied Status, not membership.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So, does MDP carry forward through membership? Say, if the OSA MDP'd both us and the Harmony, then ratified into the UFP, would they still be bound to defend the Harmony?
(also hi again I just spent like the better part of a week catching up on several IC years of posts, I feel like the crew of the Lion must've felt to come back to the present)
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
I know? You are probably misunderstanding my point.
Unless I comprehend Iron Wolfs post incorrectly, it seems to say that if HoH (for example) is allied with a nation before they join us, the alliance (mutual defence pact) would remain. Between our member and the HoH.
This both breaks the rule that UFP members surrender their foreign policy to the UFP as a whole, and would cause a lot of problem if someone attacked the HoH and we didn't want to help, or if it were us doing the attacking. And would force the HoH to defend us because to attack the UFP is to attack all of its members.
This... does not seem wise. And makes little sense besides.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The Federation has NOT been portrayed as a loose NATO-like alliance.
Firstly, "federation" implies "federal" implies a central government that controls unified policy, and foreign policy is pretty much unfailingly among the things handled by central governments. It's right there in the name. We're not the United Treaty Organization of Planets.
Secondly, we've repeatedly had it explicitly declared in-game that member worlds are forbidden from mobilizing their fleets or pursuing independent foreign policy in various ways. It was a major problem when, after the Lironh bombing, the Amarki looked pissed-off enough to just gratuitously invade the Orion Union on their own. And this was viewed as a problem not only because it'd be a war, but because it'd amount to the Amarki violating very basic Federation rules on what they can and cannot do. It was also a major problem when the Apiata were attacking Cardassian and Sydraxian shipping in what we now know as the Gabriel Expanse back around the same timeframe.
Similarly, we've treated participation in ongoing wars as an obstacle to Federation membership precisely because those ongoing wars are not wars promoted by Federation policy- the new member has to give up their power to wage independent war, which they can't do while already fighting a war themselves.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm pretty certain that neither us, nor the Harmony are that dumb. If someone declares war on our minor friend, we both pitch in to help. If someone declares war on either of us the minor becomes a beligerant, but there's no transitive property that drags the other Great Power in.
Probably some wording about assistance only being provided in a case of aggression being directly applied. Nothing says that the Pact bullies the Ashidii and suddenly everyone from the CBZ all the way to Tiriad is suddenly on the move.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
But you could cause WW1 in Space tho
This is still, as others have pointed out, a problem. Lets say the Romulans attack the Harmony which triggers their mutual defense pact with the Licori who are Federation Members.
The first problem we run into is that now a Federation Member (the Licori) are at war with the Romulans. This gives the Romulans grounds to declare the Federation in violation of our peace treaty.
The second problem is that since the Licori are closer Harmony would want to base their fleet out of Licori space. Except LIcori space is a part of Federation space so not only are there now Harmony ships in Federation space but are garrison forces in the LBZ and Licori Sector are standing between Romulan warships and valid military targets in Licori space.
The third problem is that even if Harmony ships aren't based out of Licori space the various installations in Licori space that our garrison ships would be protecting are valid targets for the Romulans.
The fourth problem is that any trade going on between the Licori and the wider Federation are also valid targets for Romulan wolfpacts.
The list goes on.
Or here is another example; lets say the ISC finally decide enough is enough and attack the Harmony. This triggers Harmony's mutual defense pact with the Felis who are a Federation member. Can you imagine just how terribly that would go down considering the way the ISC treats enemies? We would have Federation citizens dying by their millions as our "ally" the ISC performs orbital bombard on Felis cities.
Then there is the question of what happens in a war between the Federation and Harmony. Which side to the minor powers align with? Do they try and stay neutral despite being on the front lines of the conflict?
There is a reason any nation joining a larger one is generally required to dissolve and foreign relations. It makes things a nightmare to handle otherwise.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@AKuz
Basically, this isn't a problem for affiliates, because worst case they can just sever some of their ties with one Big Side and honor their ties with the other. It's arguably not a problem for allies, likewise.
But "if you're a part of our country you can't be making side-deals with another country" is a pretty basic element of the definition of "country" under which the statement "the Federation is a country" makes sense. It's like, the Amarki cannot independently declare war on the Cardassian Union, even if they really want to. The Vulcans could not unilaterally declare peace on the Licori during the Licori War, even if they really wanted to.
So when dealing with an actual Federation member species, all these treaties that may or may not exist with outside powers have to get overridden. Conversely if these same species join the Harmony, we don't have treaties with them anymore- that species is no longer a separate sovereign nation that gets to pursue an independent foreign policy. If we want to maintain those treaty relationships, we have to negotiate with the Harmony government now, for the same reason that the EU can't sign a trade agreement with Pennsylvania that's independent of its larger agreements with the US.
...
And when it comes down to questions of "so, which side will you take in a war," nobody's going to be satisfied with "well OBVIOUSLY no transitory property applies" arguments saying that my little minor nation of Whateverstan will be able to avoid triggering Space World War One by activating interlocking networks of mutual assistance treaties. Or that we'll "do as we see fit" or that we'll ignore whichever treaty promises would situationally lead to a bad result in a specific scenario.
There is going to be a reasonable expectation that if I reach a certain level of tight association with one side or the other, I'll have to foreswear some of my ties to the other.
...
Again, this isn't a problem necessarily for Ally status polities, and it's almost certainly not a problem for Affiliates. But it's a huge issue for members because members of the Federation and Harmony are pretty explicitly being called on to renounce their independent foreign policy, warmaking powers, and right to invite outside powers into their space.
Basically, this isn't a problem for affiliates, because worst case they can just sever some of their ties with one Big Side and honor their ties with the other. It's arguably not a problem for allies, likewise.
But "if you're a part of our country you can't be making side-deals with another country" is a pretty basic element of the definition of "country" under which the statement "the Federation is a country" makes sense. It's like, the Amarki cannot independently declare war on the Cardassian Union, even if they really want to. The Vulcans could not unilaterally declare peace on the Licori during the Licori War, even if they really wanted to.
So when dealing with an actual Federation member species, all these treaties that may or may not exist with outside powers have to get overridden. Conversely if these same species join the Harmony, we don't have treaties with them anymore- that species is no longer a separate sovereign nation that gets to pursue an independent foreign policy. If we want to maintain those treaty relationships, we have to negotiate with the Harmony government now, for the same reason that the EU can't sign a trade agreement with Pennsylvania that's independent of its larger agreements with the US.
...
And when it comes down to questions of "so, which side will you take in a war," nobody's going to be satisfied with "well OBVIOUSLY no transitory property applies" arguments saying that my little minor nation of Whateverstan will be able to avoid triggering Space World War One by activating interlocking networks of mutual assistance treaties. Or that we'll "do as we see fit" or that we'll ignore whichever treaty promises would situationally lead to a bad result in a specific scenario.
There is going to be a reasonable expectation that if I reach a certain level of tight association with one side or the other, I'll have to foreswear some of my ties to the other.
...
Again, this isn't a problem necessarily for Ally status polities, and it's almost certainly not a problem for Affiliates. But it's a huge issue for members because members of the Federation and Harmony are pretty explicitly being called on to renounce their independent foreign policy, warmaking powers, and right to invite outside powers into their space.
- Location
- NC USA
This whole two way influence kind of makes more problems than it solves. A lot of problems would be cleaned up if it went back to 1 influence tag where it went into the positives for federation influence and negatives for harmony influence.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
The ISC do not treat their enemies like that (if they can help it). Due to their long lives and the many deaths they remember, they value life very highly, and not only of their own kind. What they do is neutralizing a threat completely.
If you start a war with the ISC, they will not just burn your ships and call it quits. They will invade, defeat, and occupy your entire polity, and then get started on a throughout campaign of deassholification even if it would take centuries to complete, to get rid of the root cause of the conflict.
Edit to avoid doubleposting:
Multiple relations reflect IC reality far better, and allows powers to make progress without having to sabotage the progress of others.
Also turns a diplowar from a tug of war over the influence tag into a relations race which is far more appropriate I believe, for many reasons.
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