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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Reading her words and actions, it reads like she isn't considering the value of a Clear Seed.

Either a Clear Seed isn't enough, which beggars belief, or she doesn't know about it, or as a third option, she doesn't trust she'll be able to hold onto it and simultaneously believes we won't stick around long enough to replace it.
 
Edinburgh is close to a 16 hour trip. Even with timestop you still have to actually commit to the hours to get there. Also timestop is not likely to give us the context to investigate the matter properly. Unless we can convince Rionna to tell us her problems, we don't even know what we're looking for. It's a complete waste of time and heavily imposes on Homura.
 
It does make one wonder whether Homura has something that can get her to Edinburgh in that shield. Can that thing fit passenger planes?
 
Have a Meta-Omake

In a bleak, desolate wasteland, a horde of madmen follow their preachers on an old quest.

They trudge onwards, tired bodies fueled by the teachings of their many leaders.

"We must hug Mami!" says one of the preachers, a goblin in medieval armor. "She's been very happy lately, and we need to show her that's good!"

The crowd mumbles their support, and the goblin raises his hands in victory.

"Why would we hug Mami?" says someone in the crowd. "She's not that great, and-"

They are cut off before they can finish, descended upon by an angry mob. Within seconds, they lie on the ground, unconscious, and the group continues its journey.

Many leaders step forward as the group debates what to do, with whoever has the most support being in front.

Yet, they are never truly leading the group.

At the very front is a being known only as Firn, who carefully stays at least three steps ahead of whoever's leading.

It is Firn who is truly the prophet of this group, deciding which way they shall go. He leads the way with grace, a taunting smile never far from his lips.

There are other groups in the distance, led by different preachers and different prophets. Some of the masses change between groups on the fly, some rotate regularly, and some stay with one.

Yet despite being the oldest and largest of the groups, there is discontent brewing in the minds of some questers.

"Don't you think that this is getting old?" says one of them, a young lord with a silly name.

"No," says another. "Since when do you think that? I thought you loved this?"

"I do," says the lord. "But I really think we need something... new. Something to spice it up."

He lights up another cigarette, replacing the one already in his mouth.

"We've been doing this for years, and what have we got to show for it?"

"Emotional payoff, character development, a happy relationship, hugs, should I go on?"

"Please don't, you're making good points," says the lord. "And that's not what I mean! Walpurgisnacht isn't even the biggest threat we face, but it will be years before we even see it! And all this time, we'll waste away doing SCIENCE!"

"Chungus, you're being silly," says the goblin. He has descended from the front of the pack, having been replaced by a shifting mass that goes from face to face, always wearing a red shirt.

"Maybe I am," says Lord Chungus. "But better to be silly than to be SCIENCE!"

The crowd around him gasps, turning to face the newest traitor.

"Chungus, don't!" Says the goblin. "What you're doing, it's not right!"

"Who needs right?" Says Lord Chungus, growing frantic. "Who cares about right or wrong when it takes over a month to get through a single conversation?"

"It's necessary for us to have enough time!" Says a white-haired person, an imitator of their idol. "If the updates were quicker, we wouldn't be able to have in-depth analysis and debates!"

"We don't need three days to debate how to approach a single conversation!" Chungus says. "Especially not for just one part of it!"

A crowd has begun to form around the mad lord, and smaller arguments are breaking out in the group.

Lord Chungus rises to the front and turns to the crowd

"I think it's time for something new!" He says. "I think it's time for a new quest to form!"

"But that's heresy!" says one of the local catgirls.

"Then a heretic I shall be!" says Chungus. "Cast me down from this golden palace and I shall make a throne of sticks and mud!"

The crowd is raving, a combination of boos and cheers melting together into an oppressing buzz.

"Ask yourself this; are you truly happy with this quest as it is? Are you so invested that you will not leave it, if only for a few minutes? And most importantly, ARE YOU REALLY WILLING TO WAIT YEARS FOR KYOKO AND SAYAKA TO HOOK UP?"

The crowd roars grow to a fevered pitch, the discontent in their hearts now laid bare for all to see.

Then join me, friends! Follow me to a new world order!"

Having been presented with a yes or no choice, the crowd's incomprehensible roars turn into a clear, well-presented debate as to the best path to take.

Within seconds, everyone has made up their mind and voted for their choice.

"I am Lord Chungus!" The madman says. "God of Nutella, King of the Silly, and Tuba Jesus! If you shall refuse to follow me, then I have only one thing to say to you!"

He raises his hands, watching the crowd descend into madness.

"MAMI SAID KNOCK YOU OUT!"


You thought this was a regular Omake, BUT IT WAS ME, A NEW QUEST!
 
PhDEevee said:
Okay, I know both of these points have been brought up before, but you're basically arguing that Rionna could be a completely immoral monster capable of faking everything we've seen out of her so far. That's not really something that can be disproven, though I can give some evidence against it.

Suppose that Rionna is concerned about the reactions of others. Whose reactions would Rionna be concerned about? Let's assume that Kyubey or some other actor can show Rionna just deciding to gank Sabrina to literally anyone, casting her as someone just willing to kill anyone. Who might she be concerned about?

1. Her neighbours - with a very broad definition of neighbours including a lot of Western Europe. Edinburgh is prime territory that's hard to hold, and her neighbours are already terrified of her. This might push them into attacking her.
2. Her long term allies: she has to get information about grief manipulators somehow, and that information dries up if they're afraid of her.
3. Her targets: Who may become harder to hit because of this, somehow.
4. Kyubey: Maybe if she sticks to certain rules he won't screw her over.
5. Her enemies - there's nothing like 'she killed my friend too!' to really get together and wreck her day.

So Rionna goes to talk with Sabrina instead, and immediately starts provoking her in the middle of a bubble she has good reason to think prevents communication outside. This means that either a) she doesn't believe Sabrina / Sabrina isn't correct about the bubble; b) the bubble doesn't matter, because she can employ a magical girl who can read history or detect lies, etc.; or c) it's not actually because she's concerned about reaction to the deed. The first seems unlikely, because the bubble has been pretty consistent on blocking everything. The second is possibly true, but I find it hard to believe any of those possible options would be favourable to Rionna, because any kind of digging would indicate that Rionna had every intention of a fight breaking out there, and it also casts her power in the worst possible light. She would know this, too.


Okay, so what about power? How would it come about that Rionna wouldn't be sure about winning a fight with Sabrina et al., and how would she react? Well, either Rionna knew that from the beginning, possibly because of the number of grief manipulators she's encountered or because of prior research; or she didn't, and drew that conclusion sometime after arriving in Mitakihara. If it's the former, she came anyway, believing it worth the risk. If it's the latter, she may still be intent on her original goal, or she may be considering backing off. Any way she's putting on a very confident impression of being able to take Sabrina in a fight.

-If Rionna still intends to take Sabrina's power, her actions are probably designed to provoke Sabrina, and possibly cause Sabrina to underestimate her (because Rionna is 'arrogant'). What does she do if her provocation fails? Either the power is worth enough to her that she attacks Sabrina anyway, or she backs off to maintain her image (if she's concerned about that). If it's the latter those various hints we have about Rionna's need for this power must all be false, or not as strong as we believed. Or maybe she's playing an even deeper game to make Sabrina lower her guard, which implies she has an almost perfect social mask.

But the thing is - the best opportunity to gank Sabrina was still at the first meeting. None of the actions Rionna has taken have in any way caused Sabrina to lower her guard or put her in a worse position, unless she's lying about being unable to use her shades. The 'I am a damaged meguca' impression makes a person more wary, not less - and she could also just go along with Sabrina's plans, then gank her later. It would make Sabrina much less suspicious, and work better. We also have no reason to think that Rionna's lying about the shades, because the bubble shuts out everything we're aware of.

-If Rionna no longer intends to take Sabrina's power, she's backpedalling. In that case there's no reason for her to provoke Sabrina, unless that's a mistake. And that means that her composure can be broken by stress - her mask isn't perfect. Alternatively, she's playing the poor damaged meguca role. In that case, again, why wouldn't she accept Sabrina's help, lie, and go her merry way? She may be concerned about image, but that doesn't compare to a good chance of getting killed.

In any case, the reasoning behind Rionna's actions becomes really convoluted if either or both of those are her motivations with zero moral code behind them.
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I like your reasoning. My own thoughts agree, that there is some form of morality behind Rionna. It is obviously not our morality, but I don't read her actions as inconsistent.

May I invite you to boil down your statement into a working hypothesis? Specifically, take the jump to form a working model of the character before us. Of course that is a certainty of some error at this time.

It is my thought that trying to communicate a reference to other Questers will improve our progress. My model was put up a while ago. Feel free to contradict me if that makes improvements. The primary aim is to create a strong understanding of what we have just done, right now, before time passes.

Please use your logic, add your imagination, and define Rionna as a full person?
 
Godwinson said:
@Kaizuki
My concerns with that plan would be that while Rionna might not have prepared for Time Stop, some of her preparations might be broad enough that they catch Homura anyways, and it sees Homura having to fight Rionna's defenses on her own, a world away from everyone. Furthermore, travel times. Homura can't catch a plane and we wouldn't be there to help her go faster, so it'll take a lot of time in timestop for her to travel to the other side of the world, significant times away from Mitakihara, from her friends and her mission, all for an end that is very tenuously connected to the thing that's kept her going.

Basically, I'm concerned that this idea would be very bad for Homura's wellbeing on more than one front.
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I clearly didn't manage to clarify this enough last night but I think it's too insane to be a good idea.

An interesting idea, and suitable for daydreaming? Yes.


A good idea? No
 
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Kaizuki said:
I clearly didn't manage to clarify this enough last night but I think it's too insane to be a good idea.

An interesting idea, and suitable for daydreaming? Yes.


A good idea? No
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Also I've seen some people commenting about road trips or some shit.. Homura has jet aircraft. It'd be twelve hours or less each way, which remains an awful lot.
 
So going to Edinburgh in a reasonable time frame requires we go personally.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 7, 2018 at 5:15 PM, finished with 143196 posts and 28 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: note that these could come after we delivered on whatever our end was, then: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We've helped people who have done some pretty bad shit in the past: any deal with us would have conditions, yes, but they could come only after we delivered, potentially. Why is it, exactly, that we can't help her?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] If we somehow move on from the above during this vote: before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
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Okay, refinement. I didn't like the trust line because it has a tendency to dead-end us, and because it leaves a lot of other stuff untouched. Based on the conversation so far it'd be a safe bet from her POV that any deal with us would involve giving up her shades and not murdering anymore -- she'd be right, because if she's going to keep doing evil shit we're gonna have to shoot her, but it may be worth pointing out that such conditions could be delayed until after, say, we'd helped her save her sister or somesuch, which... having to give up the shades first and hoping that we'll manage it would not be okay from her POV, where giving up the shades conditional on our success -- it's not unreasonable, but one can see how the conversation thus far might have made her think we wouldn't go for it.

The open-endedness of the new line also kind of made it infeasible to have the stuff afterwards.

Kaizuki said:
[X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.

[X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
-[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
-[X] We've helped people who have done some pretty bad shit in the past: any deal with us would have conditions, yes, but they could come only after we delivered, potentially. Why is it, exactly, that we can't help her?
--[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.

[X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
-[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?

[X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
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[X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: note that these could come after we delivered on whatever our end was, then: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.

[X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
-[X] We've helped people who have done some pretty bad shit in the past: any deal with us would have conditions, yes, but they could come only after we delivered, potentially. Why is it, exactly, that we can't help her?
--[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.

[X] If we somehow move on from the above during this vote: before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
 
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PhDEevee said:
@Kaizuki Could you please address my previous criticism of one of the vote lines?
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You mean this one?
PhDEevee said:
...the message of this update Sabrina came out with, the one I think scored a hit on Rionna - that Sabrina wants to help her. I know Sabrina said it early on, but I think the reason why it had such an impact here was because it was directly in response to Rionna's 'I am a monster' spiel...
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Let me suggest you crib in a version of this, and show @Kaizuki what a vote you like contains, in a concrete manner?

Should I compose that for you, instead?


######

We need maximum assertion and bluntness with Rionna ATM.

I feel we should try to negotiate without requiring her to trust.
Making her goals immediately similar to ours helps. Her goals are personal, not public - she won't dare share them. But she will act to fulfill them.

Saying "I want to help you" is not an error, but I see it as too small a motion to move Rionna. Is freely opening her path to goal the winning strategy?

Please see if my vote as exists is expressing this? Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 5725
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Aug 7, 2018 at 3:21 PM, finished with 143191 posts and 26 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: note that these could come after we delivered on whatever our end was, then: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We've helped people who have done some pretty bad shit in the past: any deal with us would have conditions, yes, but they could come only after we delivered, potentially. Why is it, exactly, that we can't help her?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] If we somehow move on from the above during this vote: before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
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[X] Muramasa

Asking for information without making all sorts of promises, seems like the most productive use of our time in the privacy sphere.

The bandwagon changed somewhat on me, the one promise I liked -non-agression for her visit, unless she assaults someone in the city- seems to have been dropped.

I would've liked to assure her we aren't going to break hospitality on her visit, while simultaneously preparing our friends in case she breaks hospitality.

And I also like Kaizuki's plan to scope out Edinburgh, however I think we could do that after she boards her flight home.:whistle:(and she's stuck on a flight) So anyone we leave in Mitakihara is more secure from suddenly dropping dead.
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Aug 7, 2018 at 5:14 PM, finished with 143196 posts and 28 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: note that these could come after we delivered on whatever our end was, then: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We've helped people who have done some pretty bad shit in the past: any deal with us would have conditions, yes, but they could come only after we delivered, potentially. Why is it, exactly, that we can't help her?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] If we somehow move on from the above during this vote: before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
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Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Aug 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM, finished with 143199 posts and 29 votes.
  • [X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    -[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect things -- she wouldn't need to secure her city with a shade army, after all.
    -[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
    -[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
    -[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    -[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.
    [X] If she makes to leave: break to voting.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
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PhDEevee said:
@Kaizuki Could you please address my previous criticism of one of the vote lines?
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The reason we had an impact here was that we offered to help with the problem in Edinburgh that she hadn't told us she had, just saying. I realize that's not exact directly addressing what you're saying, but that's... that's what it was, lol.

....

Ach, but you're also right. Helping people is a central part of our message, and we do want to help her if she's in need of it, just so long as, well... yeah.

*rummages through Eevee's posts, rates insightfuls*

...

*groans, thinks about overhauling vote*

Even if we end up having to gem her, we'll still want to follow up on Edinburgh afterwards...

Firnagzen said:
"You can't help me," Rionna says, shaking her head. "Go back to your girl, go back to your friends. Y' don't want this fight, neither do I."
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And... we can also always kill her after helping her with her problem... Which is almost certainly something we want to help with...



And, at the same time, things are actually probably going to get tenser, here...



Goals. Goals, goals, goals.

Acquire more information.

Inform that we wouldn't insist on her, say, giving up her shades unless we were able to help her (if we can't help her, we have no leverage, we're going to end up killing her because we won't be able to get her to stop doing evil shit).

... try things like dewitching to see if they stick.







The really big problem here -- that hasn't been highlighted yet -- is that we're... not terribly likely to get many more chances if we miss our mark here. She's already told us to leave once.




And the issue with this vote is that we've successfully woven a web of interlocking and conflicting issues:

It's possible-to-extremely-likely that she doesn't think we'd agree to try to help her without her agreeing to get rid of the shades beforehand, which would be a major sticking point. Any agreement would surely need to involve us "not expecting her to give up her shades if we fail to help her, and not expecting her to give up her shades before we try to help her" because she'd have to be an idiot to take anything else -- if we don't succeed she'd be screwed.

It's possible that she doesn't want to give out the relevant information without trusting us, and we already kind of spat on that with the clear seed thing and saying we don't trust her.

It's the case that she's trying to get us to fuck off.

We don't have all the relevant information, and bringing up what we are hypothesizing to double-check it risks pissing her off.


Okay. We can't afford to risk trying a "roll over her" approach, or at least not any that I've managed to craft.






Overhaul...






[X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
-[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect things -- she wouldn't need to secure her city with a shade army, after all.
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
-[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
-[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.

[X] If she makes to leave: break to voting.
(In the above case, which I don't expect to see happen, the next vote would probably have to be dropping dewitching and maybe her sister to see what sticks, potentially followed by shooting her or not -- that said, no matter what we do here this is going to be a possibility).



The idea here is to try to break any preconceptions she may have which might be contributing to her chosen belief that we cannot / will not help her. The problem with trying to bring up dewitching quickly is that it's not a natural movement, and so it inherently breaks the flow of the conversation, which also breaks any vote that intends to try to explore by question why Rionna is saying we can't help her.

If I were one-hundred percent sure that voting [] "I'm quite interested in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, you know?" would not lead to a fight and would not result in her looking at us funny and going "WTF does that have to do with anything," I'd vote for that. The problem is that we're not even 90% sure that her sister is a grief seed, not really. The sister being a shade is equally possible -- Rionna could, for example, be trying to acquire enough magic to try to revive her sister's shade, and be building some edifice up in Edinburgh using grief controller powers and grief seeds to achieve that.



I've been at this for another couple hours, now. I dunno, I think I like our odds better with this than with the previous version. But we're just missing a ton of information about why she's saying what she's saying -- too much conjecture, not enough capability for educated hypothesizing. Hence, of course, why this leads off with a "why?"


Old vote:

[] If at any point she asks what we want from her: note that these could come after we delivered on whatever our end was, then: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
[] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
-[] We've helped people who have done some pretty bad shit in the past: any deal with us would have conditions, yes, but they could come only after we delivered, potentially. Why is it, exactly, that we can't help her?
--[] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
[] If we somehow move on from the above during this vote: before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
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Kaizuki said:
If I were one-hundred percent sure that voting [] "I'm quite interested in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, you know?" would not lead to a fight and would not result in her looking at us funny and going "WTF does that have to do with anything," I'd vote for that. The problem is that we're not even 90% sure that her sister is a grief seed, not really. The sister being a shade is equally possible -- Rionna could, for example, be trying to acquire enough magic to try to revive her sister's shade, and be building some edifice up in Edinburgh using grief controller powers and grief seeds to achieve that.
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Bringing up dewitching is relevant insofar as it lets her know what we actually want from her. Right now, I think she's under the impression that our intent is to convince her to let go all of her shades, for moral reasons. This makes the conversation very adversarial, and it's probably what she means when she tells us to let it go, that neither of us wants to fight.

@Redshirt Army was concerned that this was deceptive, given that we do actually want her to abandon soul slavery eventually. I think it's fine, though. The conversation could use a neutral tangent, and if nothing else, showing her Aurora will tell us if her power is even helpful to our efforts. We can always go back to talking about solving her problem after demonstrating that we aren't all hot air and lofty ideals.
 
Roomba said:
Bringing up dewitching is relevant insofar as it lets her know what we actually want from her. Right now, I think she's under the impression that our intent is to convince her to let go all of her shades, for moral reasons. This makes the conversation very adversarial, and it's probably what she means when she tells us to let it go, that neither of us wants to fight.

@Redshirt Army was concerned that this was deceptive, given that we do actually want her to abandon soul slavery eventually. I think it's fine, though. The conversation could use a neutral tangent, and if nothing else, showing her Aurora will tell us if her power is even helpful to our efforts. We can always go back to talking about solving her problem after demonstrating that we aren't all hot air and lofty ideals.
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We absolutely want to convince her to let go of all of her shades, for moral reasons. The catch is that we're totally willing to help her with whatever her problem is before she lets them all go.
 
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