I have at least a little interest in making sure we aren't working with someone that will undermine us by hurting - not hunting, but going out of her way to ensure a fate worse than death for - witch makers.

A deterrent only works if it presents an outcome that makes the course of action you want to discourage come out worse than the course of action you want to encourage. Riona is attempting to discourage use of grief spreading powers and attempting to encourage... what, exactly? Witching out? Suicide by gem smash? Her plan only makes sense if being turned into a shade is horrible. And she does it to people because it's horrible. There isn't any other interpretation.
It's successful enough that she's viewed it as worth being done repeatedly.

"Fate worse than death" is an assumed state that the thread has concluded from abstract descriptions. Riona hasn't explained her process for establishing warnings, or what the use of the shades fully entails. At the very least, it functions as a message that "you can't turn girls into witches without someone coming for you"

Until arriving in Mikahita, Riona lived in a world where Witching out was a finality.
 
I think it's more that she's discouraging abuse of grief transfer powers. I don't think there's any indication that she's found every other griefguca guilty.

And looking at Corbeau as an example, grief transfer is a very, very abusable powerset. "A couple score witches" means that the particular griefguca she just mentioned forcibly witched upwards of forty people.

What would you advocate Sabrina's response be to someone like that?
Awkwardly make conversation and invite them to ice cream.

Well, if she caught her before she did those things. :V
 
Corny is basically making my point for me

We have no reason to assume that Rionna is lying to us, or that her claimed souls are somehow being tortured, or really that there's anything we need to address at all there.

By the information we have right now, she acts as judge, jury, and executioner because that's the only option she sees available to her.

Even if we give her a clear seed, she's pretty much the only sherrif in town until we come up with our own way to neutralize and imprison Magical Girls

This is not a problem that needs to be addressed right now, largely because we don't actually have a better solution as of yet

Now if, as the conversation goes on, she turms out to be exactly the kind of monster some of you think she is, we can deal with her then. But as is? I don't really see the need to ask her to stop
 
I feel a vote tally would help put this thread into perspective.

I'm not sure what's winning, and that's concerning considering what's at stake.

Boom.
Adhoc vote count started by Shadowhisker on Jul 29, 2018 at 7:45 PM, finished with 142107 posts and 49 votes.

  • [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
    -[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
    -[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
    -[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
    [x] Redshirt Army
    [X] simmer down. Let her explain. Be open about concerns, but dont try to be a judge. Dont start making demands.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[x] Tell Rionna you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [x] You find her actions horrifying. Death would be a kinder fate.
    -[x] You understand that it may have seemed necessary or justified... but you want to make a better world then that.
    [x] You can share nigh-unlimited cleansing - doing so is in large part your goal.
    -[x] You want to work with her. (Pull out Aurora and Hildegarde.) You believe together you can do great things. Provide the means for girls to cleanse their gems without having to fight. An alternative to grief seeds. Maybe even one day reverse witchification.
    -[x] But chaining souls to her service is wrong, regardless of the crimes of her targets. Everyone deserves the chance to change, to grow past their mistakes.
    [x] Plead for her to not enslave any more souls. Ask if she can, in time, release the ones she already has. Ask her to give you a chance to show her that it's not necessary.
    [X] continue discussion.
    -[X] artificial Grief Seeds
    -[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
    [X] Will she stay with us a while?
    [x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
    [x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
    [x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
    [x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
    [x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
    [x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
    -[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    --[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're building a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claiming. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
 
, she's pretty much the only sheriff in town.
This point exactly. Meguca world is lawless outside of what are essentially citystates. Rionna is a magical girl sheriff that enforces the only law she knows.
If we were to create a new law, then i suspect she'd gladly enforce it, or submit to it.

Come to think of it, she's probably a fantastic resource for understanding what the system is like at its worst, and how we can help with that.
 
I thought I had stolen Redshirt's edits. What happened here?

Did you take my edits, Red?

Re-stolen.

[] Take a moment to calm down.
-[] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.

[] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
-[] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
-[] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
--[] Standards, justice, society.
--[] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
--[] De-Witching.

[] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
-[] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
--[] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
--[] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.

[] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
-[] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
 
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Well. I wake up to find a complete mess on my hands.

OK, so.

People? Stop assuming opinions and positions of other people. I'm skimming the thread because like I said in the update - I am exceptionally busy this couple of days. But I see a lot of that going around - please, take the time to explain yourselves and try to understand other people. I see a bunch of "you don't understand what I'm saying, so that automatically makes you a bad person". Let's not do that.

@dredloki
You in particular can stop with the snide comments. If all you have to offer is passive-aggressive insinuations, then you can just drop it.
 
At this point, we've largely come to a consensus of 27 votes, If we put the vote in abeyance it'll go higher.

I think people have cooled down a little, and it'll get better over the next couple days.
 
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That's sort of a problem, isn't it? My question is why you're okay with this.
There are several reasons, but the main one is that you are coming from a point where being a shade (and by extension slavery) is the absolute worst possible fate, and is therefor indefensible (apologies in advanced if I've oversimplified your position or missed something important). I'm also not a fan of her tactics, but, I feel like there's a lot more grey that isn't being acknowledged. First off, is it really worse than death? To you, yes, I accept that. But to everyone? I would bet that a decent number of the people who Riona has are the type that would pick a coma to death, just on the balance of probability, because it's a hard question. I don't know what I would pick, if Riona sat down across from me and told me she was either going to kill me or put me into a coma.

There's also this:
Riona probably sees claiming souls forever as a mercy. Because hell is the ultimate fate worse than death.
which has no support, but then, neither do any of the assertions that she thinks it's a fate worse than death and she's evil and that she needs to be gemmed right now. So, *shrug* But it's easy to see how she would view this as better than death, especially at first. Evil girl, send her to hell? or put her in purgatory via your power, where her soul can potentially work off her wrongdoings? It's not difficult to see where this belief might form, especially since Riona does not have a bunch of armchair generals inside her brain. Given how much we're freaking out about this, words on a page, what do you think Riona's formulative years as a magical girl were like?

Beyond that, arguing which is eviler doesn't really serve a purpose. Yes, she's done bad things. But I resist the assertion that these things are appreciably worse than any other girl who's done bad things (Homura, Orikol, and Kirika all included). Especially because we don't know what she's done. Beyond hunting after girls who, by all accounts, are actually evil, to the point where they make Kyoko's familiar "farming" look like jaywalking. Again, this is based solely on her own words, but so is every argument against her.

Essentially, Riona's probably spent a few years looking into the abyss, this is what looked back.

I have at least a little interest in making sure we aren't working with someone that will undermine us by hurting - not hunting, but going out of her way to ensure a fate worse than death for - witch makers.

A deterrent only works if it presents an outcome that makes the course of action you want to discourage come out worse than the course of action you want to encourage. Riona is attempting to discourage use of grief spreading powers and attempting to encourage... what, exactly? Witching out? Suicide by gem smash? Her plan only makes sense if being turned into a shade is horrible. And she does it to people because it's horrible. There isn't any other interpretation.
EXACTLY. And I'm willing to forgive the past if she stops and if she felt like she had no other alternative to making her message to Griefbenders. But it has to stop.
This has already been addressed to some extent, but beyond discouraging the abuse of grief transfer powers (and again, we don't know how discerning she is so let's not jump the gun), but we are all in agreement that she should stop stealing souls if possible, and that we're offering to do our part in making that possible.

And really, there is another interpretation of her actions, as is shown by this thread. Just because a less evil interpretation of what she's done is antithetical to what you've come to believe does not make it impossible. This thread has clearly demonstrated that both sides have logical arguments, and those arguments cannot meet because, as I mentioned in response to Aura's post above, they are coming from irreconcilable assumptions (which, for the last time, we have no support for in either direction except for even more assumptions).

So really, she came here in peace. She's willing to talk. At the very least that means we can get her backstory. That way, instead of constantly going in circles, we can know more about what's up with her power before making any more arguments based on information we do not have.
 
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[x] Onmar

Soul Stealing is... horrifying. Her mentioning that she can do it to muggles is more of the same and doesn't paint the best picture, but right now things don't seem to be about to devolve unless we break it down. We need more information, we need to know if she can release these Shades for example, and exactly what it is she hopes for from someone who can actually cleanse Grief.

She goes out whenever she hears a rumor of someone who can perform these miracles, and when it's revealed that it's not a miracle she puts a stop to it. I can't fault her for that, even if I find the methods terrifying. We can save our judgment for after we know what the point of it is.

We just don't know enough yet, and the current situation is not about to turn into a fight unless we turn it into one.
 
So... How likely is it, at this point, that Riona is Feathers?

Pro: Riona has tons of powers, wouldn't be too surprising if she had a Feathers power available
Pro: Riona's powerset "kills" people in the same way that Feathers does

Con: this does not explain how a Feather spawned on us, back when we were experimenting with Barrier magic
Con: this does not explain other creepy stuff, like Feathers sending us hidden-text messages in timestop

???: Riona would gain tremendous benefit from flat-out stealing our soul and taking our power for herself
???: but she hasn't tried to do so yet, which speaks well for her morals, possibly
???: maybe she can't (much like Sayaka couldn't copy our power)

-----

Riona walked into our privacy sphere willingly, and we're not going to repay that with backstabbery just because we're scared of her power set.


[X] Onmur
 
[X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.

Hly fck, this week been hard decisions in multiple quests for me, jeez.

From lobotomy of an enemy to figuring out our desired husbando.

Geez.
 
[X] Onmur

This is sufficiently diplomatic and sufficiently not figuratively selling our soul that I can kind of live with it.
 
[X] Onmur
Adhoc vote count started by LendvaV on Jul 29, 2018 at 10:28 PM, finished with 142125 posts and 55 votes.

  • [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
    -[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
    -[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
    -[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
    [x] Redshirt Army
    [x] Onmar
    [X] continue discussion.
    -[X] artificial Grief Seeds
    -[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
    [X] Will she stay with us a while?
    [x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
    [x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
    [x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
    [x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
    [x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
    [x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
    -[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    --[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're building a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claiming. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
 
There's a part of me that's wondering if the bodies rot after its soul is stolen. In any case, I've been wondering when the incubators would put a stop to our clear seed giveaways (I think I've read that the incubators were after the energy that is released when gucas turn into witches) and I think Riona might be their opportunity. Having said that though, I do not have any particular course of action that in mind for now.

P.s. for a bit more random musing, maybe Riona couldn't control our soul because we are a collective and she didn't have enough power to control us? I think that there are stolen souls that have not turned into witches is a point in favor to the idea that the stolen souls are not conscious. That, or the incubators built the soul gems so that it's easier for gucas to turn into witches. I wouldn't put it past them.
 
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