did you happen to forget that she can rip peoples fucking soul out of their body?
yeah "few-to-none direct combat applications" she only needs the fucking one.

Right, but the point is that:

Imagine you're babbyguca Riona. Some big tough strong magical girl with a claymore and ice powers is threatening to kill you unless you give her your grief seeds. What are your options, if you want to live?
 
And by the way, the same "the afterlife is not an argument" thing applies to the shades, too. If we can restore them to actual bodies, and maybe their original bodies have been destroyed or rotted away, we don't get to just go "don't bother because we don't have the infrastructure to deal with them or the science to give them bodies and we need them to stop being shades ASAP".

If negotiations go well, we've just acquired a bunch of possible prisoners (or maybe people that we can recruit, if whatever bad stuff they were doing was only they had to to survive and now they don't have to), and if that means if we can only actually restore them to life as fast as we can build out our prison...
 
Last edited:
Conversely, if she can't be socialed and has to be fought, as has been the case with nearly every single person we've ever attempted to social, this is the best chance we will ever have at taking her.

Maybe. If we're feeling pragmatic, we can just tell her to get out of Mitakihara, then enter timestop, fly over to Dublin with Homura, and just crush her gem with sudden physical force. Less complications from having to explain things to our other friends, no reputation hit from attacking a guest in our domain.

1) Firn frankly wouldn't do it.

2) There... really isn't.

3) Firn wouldn't go for it.

That sounds like you're saying that we literally can't die no matter what we do. If suddenly attacking possibly the most powerful meguca we've met doesn't present the risk of a game over, what does?
 
In light of my recent "Rionna starting out" hypothetical scenario:

[X] Take a moment to calm down.
-[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.

[X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
-[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're building a better world than that.
-[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
--[X] Standards, justice, society.
--[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
--[X] De-Witching.

[X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
-[X] But you can't accept what she's claiming. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
--[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
--[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.

[X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
-[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
 
ah, to be fair, im both running on two hours of sleep, and havnt been fully reading the thread.

Dude, this is NOT an argument you should be participating in with no sleep and skimreading, especially if you're going to misrepresent people's opinions and badmouth them. Go take a nap and come back, the dumpster fire will probably still be burning.
 
perhaps I should expand a bit...

as I see it, she's already using this power about as responsibly as is physically possible

I have no real issue with the soul-stealing, especially in light of how she uses it

I see no real reason, then, to bring it up at all in the context of this conversation

People have really jumped the gun on how they're explaining things, to a degree.

Listen, Kinigget... for all we know, 'taking' souls sends them to heaven and gives her their magics as long as she can connect to them.

It could also be a state of being constantly tortured.

The problem here is that it pretty clearly has the potential to be really evil -- Kyubey does all sorts of horrible things to souls, so there's a big stigma against doing horrible things to souls in setting, and given that Rionna clearly knows all about that, it should not be a hard jump to make to question what's happening to the souls she 'takes'.

The problem:

"I control their Souls as shades, allowing me to use their powers," she says, and smiles, razor sharp and satisfied. "Don't worry, I only do it to those who would deserve it. As for makin' examples... there's a shade or two here and there who're obliged to give warnings, now and always."

She lobotomizes people -or worse- and uses their Souls as puppets. As slaves.

You want to work with her. Heck, she's even reasonable for most part, if lacking in social graces. But this... You had thought you could let it slide. Ask her to do better in the future, offer her an alternative and ask her to work with you towards de-Witching.

But this...

"... are they aware?" you ask, swallowing revulsion.

"I'unno," Rionna says with a shrug. "They can think and problemsolve, suchlike. But not really aware. 's more like they're asleep and sleep-walking under my control."

She gives you a look. Your expression is neutral - you know it is, but perhaps she gleans something from that anyway.

"Ach," she says, waving a careless hand at you. "Don't worry about it. It's not good people I do it to. Most of them are already murderers by the time I get to 'em, so they are. Last one had her and her posse livin' high on the backs of a good couple score Witches and all."

is that she doesn't seem to give a fuck what it's doing to them.

"Careless."

"Shrug."

"Makin' examples."

"Most of them are murderers."

"Don't worry about it."

"Don't worry about it."

"Don't worry about it."

That-- that is a problem.

Now, to be fair: we don't know why she's that way. Hence why we should ask.

But not caring about whether or not you're actively torturing people's souls -- that is not a good sign. That is a QB sign, that's literally his job.

Is that reason enough to be thinking about gemming her? Not alone -- but we clearly have reason to investigate what her powers are doing to the souls she has taken. The setting almost demands that.

Now, answer this for me: what do we do if she refuses investigating what her powers are doing to the souls she has taken?

...

Beyond that, we have to ask whether we want anything to do with a person who is doing and saying these things. The clear answer is that we don't, because our job is to care about the fate of people's souls. That answer alone doesn't justify gemming her, but it sure as hell justifies not associating with her.
 
The meat of the talk since the update is how to interpret Rionna's ability to steal souls.

In a world without Sabrina, girls like Rionna are the only grantees for any kind of fair-play. Her latest target was a Magical Girl team that was in symbiosis with a Witch horde, she makes it a priority to hunt girls with Wichification-powers, and Nadia makes the point that she isn't unkind. Nadia who knew enough about her to know she had a sister, and who could've easily said "She's bad news, don't engage with her"

The reality of the system is that their are many girls like Rionna. Enforcers of the greyer side of the spectrum discouraging monsters and creating "warnings." New magical girls can live in a milder horror where things like Witch-maker girls are routinely discouraged. A rumor was all that was needed to draw her here. I'm willing to bet more of those girls will show up as they hear about us, and word of our power circulates in the old guard. The girls that've been around long enough to try and shine a very grey light in a very dark room.

The power itself: Honestly sleepwalking awareness does not sound like something from a horror novel. It doesn't sound torturous.
Rionna differentiates between the soul itself, and the powers of the shade, implying that the two are separate entities.
She's also aware of our discomfort about it, making a uncharacteristically remarkable attempt to try assuaging our fears in the update.

She came to our town, of her own accord, and found something genuinely suprising:

"I've tried, everyone's tried, everyone wants to do what you can do. I can see you're not normal, what's the story?"

"Impossible," Riona mutters to herself. "And yet, here we are. This girl here."

""What was your Wish?" Riona asks.

"How did you hear about me?"
Rionna shrugs, squinting at the inside of her flask. "Been in Tokyo before, know a couple o' girls there."
"Huh," you say. You lean forward a little and prop your chin on a fist, your elbow resting on your knee. "After another Grief-cleanser?"
"Fake," Rionna says with a shrug. "Made an example out of her."
"Were you going to make an example out of me, if I were a fake?" you ask, narrowing your eyes.
"Pr'bably," Rionna says, shrugging again. She gives her flask a faintly mournful look before taking another swig from it. "Y'know what I mean by fake?"
"That they can only transfer Grief, not actually cleanse it," you say.
"So you know what that does," Rionna says. "'s deserved."

-
I have absolutely zero interest in judging a girl who made it her goal to hunt Witch-makers.
 
I can sympathize with that, if we can confirm that she can't see post-mortem souls she didn't bind.

Except she's done it to at least some people who were on some level not fuckasses, so I still want explanations.
Sure. I don't mind wanting to understand. I don't mind encouraging or maybe forcing alternatives. What I do mind is the outcry of 'shes evil and we have to stop her at once because there's no possible defense for what she's done!'

Take a step back, calm down, and try not to assume the worst. This isn't directed at you specifically btw.

Personally, I think that under the right set of thoughts and beliefs, Riona's actions could be considered to be downright heroic. Maybe ultimately wrong, but the intentions?

But we can't just assume that either. We need to actually ask. Learn. And preferably without coming across as a self-righteous condescending hypocrite, or whatever she decides we are when the leading vote inevitably steps on a few toes.
 
I have absolutely zero interest in judging a girl who made it her goal to hunt Witch-makers.

What kind of wishes would have produced those powers? Without our potential it certainly could have included ours.

That sounds like you're saying that we literally can't die no matter what we do. If suddenly attacking possibly the most powerful meguca we've met doesn't present the risk of a game over, what does?

Screwing up with Homura, screwing up with Madoka, whatever happens if/when Homura learns about the potentialbomb...

Firn isn't going to be interested in ending the quest over a decision to combat Rionna mag Aoidhe.
 
In light of my recent "Rionna starting out" hypothetical scenario:

[X] Take a moment to calm down.
-[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.

[X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
-[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're building a better world than that.
-[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
--[X] Standards, justice, society.
--[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
--[X] De-Witching.

[X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
-[X] But you can't accept what she's claiming. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
--[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
--[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.

[X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
-[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
I'm stealing your edits.

I'm telling you about it upfront, so it's not treason.
 
Last edited:
What kind of wishes would have produced those powers? Without our potential it certainly could have included ours.
The implication is that those without our potential gain the ability to transfer grief, with the explicit implication that it has to be injected into another girl. If their are enough rumors about a girl with grief powers to reach her, then they've using the powers to make witches already. A lure that any desperate girl might follow.

That is a bad situation.
 
Goddamn it. :V

is that she doesn't seem to give a fuck what it's doing to them.

"Careless."

"Shrug."

"Makin' examples."

"Most of them are murderers."

"Don't worry about it."

"Don't worry about it."

"Don't worry about it."
Look, when you put it that way... Riona sounds like such an edgy teenager.

It makes me want to bet she actually gives every irredeemable person the chance between death and eternal sleep in which they could do some good, and just pretends to be a hardass criminal because that's edgy.

I bet she would get along great with Kirika, as long as she doesn't, you know, try to kill Oriko...

... And they're gonna have to meet, if we get Riona to take a look at Oriko's Soul...
 
Last edited:
"Most of them are murderers."
"Most of them are already murderers when I get to them." The "already" part changes it a bit. See, with that included, she might be saying that even those who hadn't already killed someone were going to do so soon. And considering the type of meguca she already stated she does this to often are false grief-cleansers, well, most fake cleansers probably do end up with quite a bit of blood on their hands by causing witchouts.

That's of course a very charitable reading of it, but eh.
 
I can see plausible scenarios where Rionna captures the souls of a mundane person, for... let's call them "self justified" reasons as well.

She goes to some distant place because she heard there's someone who can control grief, but by the time she gets there it's too late - the girl is already dead. But she only finds this out after investigating, and at the same time finds out that the girl had been heavily abused by her parents, to the point she wished to be able to make the pain stop.

Yes, perhaps the correct thing to do would be to compile an extensive case of mundane evidence about the abuse, and convince local law enforcement to take it seriously. But I can't really blame an emotionally distressed Rionna if she decided to take their punishment into her own hands instead.



And yes, this is a hypothetical. But is it really any less plausible then some of the "she must be capturing souls so she can torture them for kicks" scenarios being postulated?
 
Last edited:
*Sees initial posts after update*

I can already tell this is going places. Skipping ahead to the end of the discussion.:V

So, yeah that was really disturbing. This is extreme to the point where I wonder if there's a personal component to this. Didn't Oriko mention not to talk about her sister? Or was that referring to someone else?

And then there's this.

"Ach," she says, waving a careless hand at you. "Don't worry about it. It's not good people I do it to. Most of them are already murderers by the time I get to 'em, so they are. Last one had her and her posse livin' high on the backs of a good couple score Witches and all."

... isn't a "score" about twenty? So, there was a "grief cleanser" who Witched around twenty magical girls? o_O

Also, why didn't Nadia warn Sabrina about this?! There's no way she doesn't know. She's an information broker, and Rionna specifically mentioned making "examples" out of several magical girls. Something weird is going on there.
 
So to summarize, has Rionna done bad things?

Yes.

Did she have good reasons?

Unknown

Did the people she did those bad things deserve the bad things in question?

Also unknown

Are the bad things she does like a ten on the 1-10 scale of badness (the souls are aware and unable to act, 'and I must scream' scenario) or more like a seven? (Barely aware, to them the whole experience might be like a dream)

We don't. Fucking. Know.

My position is and has been from the start of this that we should give her a chance. No more, and no less. We cannot pass judgement based solely on what we have learned so far because the fact of the matter is that we haven't actually really learned anything. We have pages and pages of vitriol, speculation, and wild conclusion jumping, with barely a handful of actual solid evidence and a whole lot of conjecture.

So calm down and let's give her the chance she deserves. If she squanders it? That's on her.
 
So, yeah that was really disturbing. This is extreme to the point where I wonder if there's a personal component to this. Didn't Oriko mention not to talk about her sister? Or was that referring to someone else?
Oh, it was Oriko. I had thought it was Nadia who told us, but it was one of Oriko's last predictions:

"Let me finish, I might not have a chance to later," Oriko hisses between gritted teeth. "The... magical girl specialising in soul magic will be here in a week. It doesn't matter what you tell Miss Bennouna." Her lips compress together for a moment. "Do not... do not ask her about her sister."
 
I mentioned previously that Sabrina doesn't know enough about Riona to really make any judgements. Well, Riona doesn't really know Sabrina either. Ultimately they're two strangers with minimal knowledge of the other. So Riona is likely going through something similar, trying to figure out Sabrina's deal. Honestly, Sabrina's powers would be very paranoia inducing themselves...

Sabrina could easily witchout or shatter Riona, yet nonetheless she isn't freaking out. Riona is perfectly aware of these possibilities, how Sabrina could have witches or familiars... Yet she stays calm. She could of flipped out upon realizing how potentially dangerous Sabrina is, but she neither ran or began a fight. Riona clearly has no interest in fighting, and knows Sabrina could easily end up killing her.

There are easier ways to die than provoking the girl who could explode your soul or turn you into a feral creature of despair.
 
I have absolutely zero interest in judging a girl who made it her goal to hunt Witch-makers.
I have at least a little interest in making sure we aren't working with someone that will undermine us by hurting - not hunting, but going out of her way to ensure a fate worse than death for - witch makers.

A deterrent only works if it presents an outcome that makes the course of action you want to discourage come out worse than the course of action you want to encourage. Riona is attempting to discourage use of grief spreading powers and attempting to encourage... what, exactly? Witching out? Suicide by gem smash? Her plan only makes sense if being turned into a shade is horrible. And she does it to people because it's horrible. There isn't any other interpretation.
 
I have at least a little interest in making sure we aren't working with someone that will undermine us by hurting - not hunting, but going out of her way to ensure a fate worse than death for - witch makers.

A deterrent only works if it presents an outcome that makes the course of action you want to discourage come out worse than the course of action you want to encourage. Riona is attempting to discourage use of grief spreading powers and attempting to encourage... what, exactly? Witching out? Suicide by gem smash? Her plan only makes sense if being turned into a shade is horrible. And she does it to people because it's horrible. There isn't any other interpretation.

EXACTLY. And I'm willing to forgive the past if she stops and if she felt like she had no other alternative to making her message to Griefbenders. But it has to stop.
 
Riona is attempting to discourage use of grief spreading powers and attempting to encourage... what, exactly? Witching out? Suicide by gem smash?

I think it's more that she's discouraging abuse of grief transfer powers. I don't think there's any indication that she's found every other griefguca guilty.

And looking at Corbeau as an example, grief transfer is a very, very abusable powerset. "A couple score witches" means that the particular griefguca she just mentioned forcibly witched upwards of forty people.

What would you advocate Sabrina's response be to someone like that?
 
What kind of wishes would have produced those powers? Without our potential it certainly could have included ours.
I feel the need to point out that outside of our peculiar circumstances most girls who make their wishes just don't have the information to wish for grief control for it's meguca applications. Most people who get a power that lets them make witches specially well will be people who made wishes to hurt others.
A deterrent only works if it presents an outcome that makes the course of action you want to discourage come out worse than the course of action you want to encourage. Riona is attempting to discourage use of grief spreading powers and attempting to encourage... what, exactly? Witching out? Suicide by gem smash? Her plan only makes sense if being turned into a shade is horrible. And she does it to people because it's horrible. There isn't any other interpretation.
No, her plan works because being turned into a shade is scary. Deterrent doesn't actually have anything to do with how horrible something is, only how horrible people think it is. Her little afterlife could be literal heaven and so long as nobody knows it won't matter.

What Rionna tries to encourage is, of course, "don't intentionally Witch out other girls".
 
Last edited:
Back
Top