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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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[x] The Phoenixian

Madoka didn't condemn magical girls to suffer. Any magical girls. I don't think Rionna is irredeemable.

(Also, Godwinson's disparagement of people in the thread flipped me against him. One of the factions here is advocating following Madokami's path, and it isn't his.)
 
Gadjo said:
It's a path towards saving the people she's imprisoned, because given that she's been doing it for years I really don't see her agreeing to give it up. Because she'd have two options: comply, or just steal Sabrina's soul, which she's seen no problem doing to other people so far.

Because her wish allows her to enslave people's souls, and her alternative to doing something she really doesn't want to do is doing something that she clearly doesn't see any problem doing- steal a soul.
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Rionna outright stated that our power interferes with her soul shenanigans. Even before she said that, she stated that we can't give her our magic, and if she tried to claim our soul, she'd have a fight on her hand. This means that, assuming she can claim our soul at all, she can't just glance at us and rip it out. She'd have to somehow defeat a Magical Girl who can literally control Rionna's own Soul Gem by using the Grief inside it. Something that is a well-known tactic of ours, and something that she should be able to realize even without hearing about it, seeing as we've shown her that we can pull Grief out of Soul Gems and Grief Seeds. Why couldn't we do the opposite, then?
So, ultimately, that is the kind of a person she would have to face, if she wanted to claim Sabrina's soul.

On the other hand, she has the option of not doing something she stated she doesn't care much for either way, in return for having her lifetime dream fulfilled, with absolutely no effort or risk on her part.

She'd have to be Voldemort-tier Retarded Evil to not take the deal.

I shouldn't even mention the fact that, if she does prove to be such, it'd be her initiating the hostilities and betrayal, which means that our own global standing (which is important for our goals) wouldn't suffer, and we'd be excused to retaliate. Also, since she can't just take our soul with a glance, and since our power interferes with hers, initiative wouldn't help her much. Not against our powerset. For us, a glance is[/s] enough.
 
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*sigh*
Alright. Fair enough, maybe an alpha strike is a bad idea here. But we can't ignore those slaves like it's nothing. New vote.

[x] You can't ignore that.
-[x] Calmly. "Would you agree to release those souls, and take no more, in exchange for infinite cleansing?"
--[x] Explain clear seeds to her- what they are, and how we've been handing them out to responsible people- on the condition that they never use that power to hurt anyone, and help those they find.
 
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Everything Can Fixed.

And it doesn't have to be immediate. Inmediacy is for children. We are supposed to be better.

As I see it right now, there's a compromise we probably can reach:

- We want Riona to stop using her powers this way, and for her to both release the Souls she's taken (hopefully in a way they can be saved and if necessary imprisoned humanely) and to help us with de-Witching.

- She wants Grief cleansing and probably for us to not fuck with her life otherwise.

Us just demanding she stops will probably not work immediately. We'll need to work for it. Why? Riona does not have a inch of a reason to believe our shit.

We're making the world better. We're dewitching witches. We need to prove these things.

The deal I think we might have to go for, if we can't get anything better, would be for Riona to agree to work with us and stay where we can see her. Basically... she wouldn't be our prisoner, but... she would be under our watch, just in case... while helping us with de-Witching.

And she'd have to agree to release/restore the Souls if we can convince her that our claims are true. That we are making things better, that we are getting de-Witching done.

(And she'd have to also agree so stop taking Souls.)

This is what I think would be the minimum we need to get from Riona: She stops stealing souls and promises to release/restore the rest if we show we can do what we've been claiming and trying to do all quest long.



BlackoutSampler said:
Lets get some shit straight here, First off We need her to release the souls from servitude. If they just autonomously do the tasks she's assigned them to without her input then gemming her is no better than condemning those bound souls to hell.
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And even if we assumed Riona could not be convinced, that not destroying her right now means Mami Will Die (which is pretty clear fearmongering, as far as I'm concerned), we do not know what will happen to the souls Riona's taken. Even in the case we could subdue her perfectly, 100% 'success', getting Sayaka to copy her powers, we do not know we'll be able to free the Souls she's taken.

If we were considering only the worst case scenario, we would still need to consider the Souls Riona's taken as hostages. Which would make us the police trying to negotiate for their freedom. We do not kick down the doors and go in guns blazing while there's hostages inside.
 
I disagree heavily with the vote in abeyance. I'm not fully opposed to diplomacy, but as a reminder, the vote in abeyance is just continuing to talk business, talking about Clear Seeds, talking about personal secrets, etc.

I think that if we want to carry on with diplomacy, we need to put our foot down, and say that this is unacceptable. We can show her the Clear Seed, but also make it very clear that we will not tolerate this kind of behaviour from anyone we give a Clear Seed to.
 
[x] You can't ignore that.
-[x] Calmly. "Will you agree to release those souls, and take no more, in exchange for infinite cleansing?"
 
[X] Gadjo
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Jul 29, 2018 at 11:17 AM, finished with 141815 posts and 21 votes.
  • [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Gadjo
    [x] You can't ignore that.
    -[x] Calmly. "Will you agree to release those souls, and take no more, in exchange for infinite cleansing?"
    [X] Stay calm. Keep talking. Obviously, what Riona's done is massively fucked up. But you can't start a fight here, not with all these people around. Get more information, and get Rionna away from the muggles. Perhaps you could show her Warehouse-kun?
    - [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [x] The Phoenixian
    [x] You can't ignore that.
    -[x] Calmly. "Would you agree to release those souls, and take no more, in exchange for infinite cleansing?"
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I can accept that people aren't comfortable with an all out attack right now, but the vote right now is to ignore it. Which is definitely not okay.
 
[X] Gadjo

Maybe a line about explaining Clear Seeds? We haven't exactly been keeping it a secret. We can also make clear that the 'don't do bad stuff' rule applies to everyone we give a Clear Seed to, and that we aren't singling her out.
 
Gadjo said:
Sayaka's power doesn't keep her soul around forever, and personally I plan on keeping her locked up until we can safely handle her.
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Sayaka's power copying is not my primary issue here. My issue is gemming for the crime of gemming people. Yes, she has a novel twist on it due to her power that makes everything 110% more horrifying and awful. But that doesn't fundamentally change the calculus of "falling into the same trap, at some point, that she likely did" here.

Power-copying afterwards is just the cherry on top, not the core of my reasoning.

I'm not inclined to straight up continue what we were doing before this. But I won't take that answer to the dilemma. (and, yes, I see your own answer as a markedly better solution, and am considering it right now)
 
[x] Gadjo

I can get behind this vote. Of course, if the Abeyance Voters have arguments that present that plan as better than this one, I'd love to hear them. I might switch the vote back, if I see merit in their claims. What matters to me above all else, is that we don't suddenly flip our personality 180 degrees and start a murderspree.
 
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Gadjo said:
I can accept that people aren't comfortable with an all out attack right now, but the vote right now is to ignore it. Which is definitely not okay.
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Eh, I was mainly on it because it was the bandwagon against voting for Charging in like an Idiot Sentai Red.

That said, We're also not going to get her to drop this right the fuck now.

However, I still don't like this vote, as it feels way, WAY too much like an ultimatum. She's unlikely to give up the Souls she currently has, as it's almost certainly one of her main forms of Not Dying.

I'll vote with this, so long as it does give more of a sign that we're willing to make concessions on our part in order to show Faith, while also Showing we don't like or Agree with what she's doing and hope she stops, which will make her more willing to see our P.O.V. in time as she realises we're not morally inflexible.
 
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