Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Pipeman said:

Man, Shenhua is such a hilarious asshole.
Like, not just her dialogue, but even just the whole pregnancy thing on its own.

Obviously, the implication in any normal family of having another kid 14 years after the last one would be a pretty blatant "yeah, the last one is just massively deficient in some way and I need a replacement" with the implicit admission of failure being why it's normally such a big repudiation of the last kid, but I don't actually see CRX on the scrap heap yet at all.
Hell, I don't even think Shenhua is disatisfied with her performance in the slightest.

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We know it's traditional to have kids with a decade+ years between them. Yanmei is 8 years or so older than Xiulan, and their oldest sister is like 70 years older than Xiulan. As kids are expensive if you want to raise them well and you don't want the infighting to be too fierce, staggering them over a couple of centuries is usually optimal.

The big thing is this shouldn't be the case for a clan that really need them.

Elero said:

Remember that other Ducal clans have hundreds of members while her clan consists of 2 people so far (well okay, and her insignificant husband). Of course she would have children faster than usual if she wants to build up her clan.

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Ducal clans have hundreds of thousands of members, not hundreds.

Grigori said:

I consider those unnecessary details though. Like, a major reason for considering CRX at all was Meizhen's recommendation but I don't think it's something that we ought to mention outside of "reputation". Personal growth I see as her finding a goal and independence etc, I don't think Shenhua cares all too much for specifics. If I were to specify though, "home" feels too gamey as the focus of our domain and ooc knowledge feels more like subconscious thoughts than something we'd vocalise at the questioning of the Duchess.

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No 'home', just that the only IC reason Ling Qi so far has acknowledged was that she wanted something that was hers and hers alone. Not even mentioning the only reason we know is true is kinda weird. I don't mind the bootlicking of 'she has proven this' as it works and isn't false, but glossing over the actual reason we chose her and instead focusing on the bootlicking and on politician non-words is kinda ehhh.

PrimalShadow said:

Really, guys? You aren't even bothering with an actual response, and are just voting for a list of reasons instead?

I'm honestly disappointed in the thread.

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While I don't mind a sentence if it feels it's a good one, I am incredibly wary of write-in sentence in our first meeting with Shenhua.

I have no issue at all with passing the buck to @yrsillar so we are assured to not get our head cut off.

You know, all this talk about Shenhua being a massive bitch, combined with how relatively casually she was talking earlier, and how she likes to kick over societal norms...

She's like a grown up Sun Liling. Now I want them to meet and get drunk together.

The problem with this vote is that the mercenary aspects and giving Cai her chance to do as she claimed and convert her into a believer are all Ling Qi really has. Because whilst she certainly respects CRX's ideals she doesn't believe in them.

Which comes back to the fact that CRX has still been sitting with her thumb firmly up her ass with regard to actually winning our loyalty and belief in her ideals as she so grandly claimed she would.

Which itself comes back to: high pressure sales tactics on your future spymaster are bad idea especially when that has to be explained to Duchess Shenhua.

People might shy we wouldn't have taken the same offer from the Sun, which is true. But if we got the same offer, including the same resources and access to Meizhen from anyone else? We'd have probably have taken that. Hell if the Sect had offered us similar resources and we had known about it we would have taken their offer.

The vote is annoying because if Shenhua wants an answer that is more than 'For the resources and opportunities and to give her a chance to convert me' then frankly CRX should have put more of her effort into actually making Ling Qi loyal to more than her money and Ling Qi's own sense of obligation. Or not actually made us a vassal until we could give a different answer.

Honestly I feel like this is more of an indication of CRX's 'room for improvement' section on the test Shenhua is grading than a reflection on Ling Qi.

• Took over outer sect
• Made credible start on political alliances.
• Gained face over Sun
• Gave overall impression of a strong, credible heir to the Cai duchy.
  
• Uncertain long term impact of established political structures
  
• Political alliances do not mesh greatly with currently established ones (Cai is an empress ally, CRX ended up opposing Sun and Kang, and allying Bai) - Out of CRX control, perhaps countered by strong overall showing.
• 1 retainer only moderately loyal.
• Unskilled at intrigue and detecting who is untrustworthy (Sun, wossisname the second year spymaster).

Overall a solid B+/A- performance.

I think Ling Qi honest response should have three points:
- CRX true goal is worth fighting for. Order > Chaos
- Ling Qi wants to improve herself from a morality PoV
- CRX presents the best materialistic opportunities

I believe Cai!Mom is savvy enough to know that idealists usually don't last long, nor achieve much.
It's better to have a realist follower, at the very least you know that that one is aware of all the tools at his disposal to further your goals (as opposed to a idalistic that will ignore half the available tools and therefor achieve much less).
All you need to do is show him/her that your goals are beneficial to your follower.

[X] Ling Qi follows Cai Renxiang because
-[X] Absolute material advantage granting growth, security, influence, etc (up to yrs how much to elaborate on this)
--[X] Integrity of Renxiang's character meaning she can be trusted to look after her minions
---[X] Interest in being a better person and seeing if Renxiang's ideal world is even possible to build in real life.

Also, @yrsillar i'm very disappointed there was no fluff at all on integrating AM to our Domain. It's kind of a big deal and to skip over it make me feel cheated out of it.

Arkeus said:

While I don't mind a sentence if it feels it's a good one, I am incredibly wary of write-in sentence in our first meeting with Shenhua.

I have no issue at all with passing the buck to @yrsillar so we are assured to not get our head cut off.

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That take on things is something I find very disappointing.

We've been given an in-character challenge - and a challenge that we as players should have all the tools to solve. And instead of actually making an attempt people are voting to pass the buck to the QM.

It is like we walked into a dungeon and the DM asked for an exploration plan, to which we respond with "our character can surely figure it out; just have them go with whatever plan they think is most likely to get good loot without excessive risk". Disappointing.

[X] Because she brought order when it was needed. Because the world she seeks to forge is the best for me and mine.

Short, sweet, too the point, and not bogged down with too many clauses. This works really well in summarizing our myriad reasons quickly.

PrimalShadow said:

That take on things is something I find very disappointing.

We've been given an in-character challenge - and a challenge that we as players should have all the tools to solve. And instead of actually making an attempt people are voting to pass the buck to the QM.

It is like we walked into a dungeon and the DM asked for an exploration plan, to which we respond with "our character can surely figure it out; just have them go with whatever plan they think is most likely to get good loot without excessive risk". Disappointing.

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Currently all the write-ins are quite bad. Even and especially mine.

Couldja take a crack at it? I'll happily vote for a well-crafted response which doesn't actively whitewash prominent established character motivations.

Kai Merah said:

Can I just say that this is hands down the most terrifying line in this quest? Because it implies that we are, no matter how remotely, at least somewhat Shenhua's 'type'.

That is very definitely the scariest thing that has happened in this quest.

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I read it be said a couple times in the thread that this means we remind her of herself.
I don't believe it so be so, i think we remind her of her lover.
Which is why Minister Linqin was a bit miffed about it.
And Ragyō Kiryūin Shenhua is totally unapologetic about it afterwards too.

Spoiler: Seriously tho, the proxy is a bit over the top here. just need to change the hair color

Erebeal said:

I think an important thing to think about is this: Sun Liling could have made us the same offer as Cai and I'm pretty sure we'd have rejected it.

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Because she couldn't. Liling could have tried to promise stability and order, but the moment someone stronger pops up, her system falls*.
Also, like virtually all systems rooted in strength, it falls apart when it doesn't have an enemy to focus on. The very moment Liling would have pacified the Outer Sect she would have been forced to find a new enemy to fight, and if she couldn't find one she would have to make one.

*Now that i thing about it, leadership inheritance is also a big issue. You either find yourself with leaders lasting very short amount of time or you have to put in place a self-contradiction so you young heir can rune older, more powerful, followers.
Both of which result in even more chaos in your system.

Ayashi said:

I read it be said a couple times in the thread that this means we remind her of herself.
I don't believe it so be so, i think we remind her of her lover.
Which is why Minister Linqin was a bit miffed about it.
And Ragyō Kiryūin Shenhua is totally unapologetic about it afterwards too.

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People are talking about the "Hoh? How nostalgic," when they reference Shenhua being reminded of herself.

It's probably the blistering fast cultivation and toppling entire power blocks in a single night.

PrimalShadow said:

We've been given an in-character challenge - and a challenge that we as players should have all the tools to solve. And instead of actually making an attempt people are voting to pass the buck to the QM.

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To be fair, our QM literally said

yrsillar said:

a guideline would be fine, if your more comfortable formatting it that way.

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I decided to take him at his word. Main points given, let Ling Qi word it herself.

I'm not much for words, but neither is Qi... Let's try something more brutally honest

[x] Your daughter's offer was most attractive, and her goals and leadership proved worthy of my respect. I decided that me and mine will thrive for pledging my loyalty and efforts to her.

[x] Because I like living, and hate saying goodbye.

The Mom-Monster is a top tier cultivator. Don't insult her by telling her what she already knows. Which includes all the resource stuff. Put it nice, short and simple. We chose her because we see her as out best option, but also because that best option includes the most safety for our friends and family.

It's a simple, honest answer. It says, I'm a survivor and I care for those close to me. And little else.

AbeoLogos said:

Couldja take a crack at it? I'll happily vote for a well-crafted response which doesn't actively whitewash prominent established character motivations.

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Sure. Here is my current best take on it:
[ ] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

My Reasoning said:

I think this truly covers most of Ling Qi reasons for accepting Lady Cai's offer and puts it all under one coherent theme. Part of it is about a home; part of it is about resources; and part of it was about wanting to be a better person by trying to improve the world. And all of it falls under the category of growth, one way or another. Totally honest.

It also casts us in a relatively positive light, hitting on both the fact that settling is important to us (which puts us solidly under the Cai's influence) and that we value CRX's ideals.

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Would you vote for this, or something like it?

archangis said:

Oh yeah CRX is going to die. Cai mom waited 200 years to have her first child. If she get a second one it's because the first failed and she need to remplace her.

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I also doubt the new baby was made to remplace CRX. At worse it's a backup in case CRX gets killed by accident.



Considering the age difference between the two Cai sisters, i kind of pity the little Cai sister. Being her is going to suck a lot!

I kind of agree with @PrimalShadow about it being dissapointing that we're not even trying to fit this into an in-character vote. How about:

[X] I follow her because she offered me resources, for the greatest opportunity to create and build my house, and to see if she can convince me that her words can really be more than just words.

I don't like point 2 of @Kai Merah 's write in, as if you thought they wouldn't give you the support they promised why would you sign up? It is very much implicit in point one that she will honour her offer.

This write in tries outlines the reasons Ling Qi agreed to take her offer now rather than waiting or choosing someone else but also outlines that we are prepared to become more invested in the cause in the future if we are handled correctly. It's also fairly short without being curt like "She promised she would win my loyalty is".

It could probably use some more work on the voice but I think it's a good start.

Ayashi said:

I believe Cai!Mom is savvy enough to know that idealists usually don't last long, nor achieve much.
It's better to have a realist follower, at the very least you know that that one is aware of all the tools at his disposal to further your goals (as opposed to a idalistic that will ignore half the available tools and therefor achieve much less).
All you need to do is show him/her that your goals are beneficial to your follower.

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Whilst I agree that Shenhua is more than intelligent enough to understand that having a follower who doesn't fully believe in your ideals is absolutely fine I highly disagree with your first statement.

Idealists can achieve a lot, and this is actually even more true in this setting. Only idealists, who dedicate themselves to a cause or purpose can forge themselves to the point of becoming white level cultivators. Cai Shenhua is living proof of the power of ideals.

Ling Qi is still figuring out what her ideals may be, but whilst she's somewhat pragmatic she isn't really a 'realist'. A realist would probably never have gotten as close to Meizhen or Xiulan as we did, especially not whilst still hanging around with Su Ling. Because a realist would have realised that a poor, ignorant peasant girl would never have been allowed that close, and would get burned trying. The definitely couldn't hang out with both the high nobility and someone as coarse as Su Ling.

OTOH maybe I'm just letting my bugbears about the use of the term 'idealist' and 'realist' get to me.

EDIT: Fixed a few minor errors.

Floom said:

So you admit that the last sentence is meant for optics? That the purpose of the last sentence is to influence Shenhua's perception of Ling Qi's motivation for joining CRX? Because I don't thinks that's a good idea to do in front of someone who may as well be a God.


And I'm not sure how having a good feudal relationship is a reason to be serving CRX. That seems more like a qualifier for considering her offer rather than a reason for choosing her offer over all the other offers.



Okay? It is an extension of that conversation, yes. But that doesn't mean that conversation is why Ling Qi joined CRX.

You can certainly think that.

But I think we're running into a problem here, so let me just ask directly:

@yrsillar Does our response here retroactively become Ling Qi's motivation for joining CRX? Is there a "true" reason why Ling Qi joined CRX, or is any answer we give retroactively decided to be true? And are OOC reasons for why Ling Qi joined CRX the same as IC reasons for why Ling Qi joined CRX?

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It will push the reasons given higher in her priorities. As noted in the final paragraph, Ling has has a whole bunch of minor reasons that all added up to the choice she made. I haven't seen anything that's an outright lie in the winning votes, sp you're not in trouble there. Do keep in mind that Shenhua is a Duchess even with her terrifying perception, it's not like everyone who interacts with her speaks only in frank absolutely factual statements.

In regards to the good Minister, Linqin is her given name,

As for making a priority list... this is a test for the narrative driven quest going forward, since without the mechanics I feel like I need other vectors of voter engagement. How the thread deals with this will help me determine how to structure such votes going forward.

Not sure what to vote for. I mean,yeah, Shehua is scary, but half the votes feel like they are trying to justify themselves to her like we did something wrong.

PrimalShadow said:

[ ] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

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I very much like this one, summarizes what I like nicely and uses very appropriate metaphor and includes a "home and hearth" reference, our thirst for growth, and holding CRX's vision as something we want to pursue for the long term.

Plus, being an actual IC write in is bonus points.

Pathos said:

I very much like this one, summarizes what I like nicely and uses very appropriate metaphor and includes a "home and hearth" reference, our thirst for growth, and holding CRX's vision as something we want to pursue for the long term.

Plus, being an actual IC write in is bonus points.

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Okay. That is good enough for me to officially throw my hat in the ring.

[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

Changing my vote here.

PrimalShadow said:

Okay. That is good enough for me to officially throw my hat in the ring.

[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

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To be honest I don't actually like this one.

The last point feels dishonest to me. Because it has been repeatedly stated in character that Ling Qi does not believe in Renxiang's ideals. She thinks they're nice. She knows that Renxiang believes. She is willing to be converted with sufficent proof/arguments. But fundamentally she does not believe in those ideals.

She also doesn't hold the sense of awe toward Renxiang personally to want follow her as an ideal sort of person, even if she doesn't share her beliefs which is the other interpretation. Willingness to be converted is not the same as declaring that her ideals will grow us as a person.

Humbaba said:

I don't like point 2 of @Kai Merah 's write in, as if you thought they wouldn't give you the support they promised why would you sign up? It is very much implicit in point one that she will honour her offer.

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When I say 'look after', it's not just in terms of material resources. It means, I not only trust Renxiang to honour her part of the deal, but also fulfill implicit aspects like "don't push your subordinates to breaking point", "look after your subordinate's family", "don't send your subordinate to do things they are very morally against", stuff like that. Basically, her morality is compatible with ours, and she's very unlikely to push us to do something we're very morally opposed to.

I think the people who supported joining CRX in the first place are starting to realize the problems with CRX's route.

Especially the fact that we're effectively locked in for the rest of Ling Qi's life.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to reverse things in-character, given that we've only been a retainer for 2 months and haven't received any lands and only a relatively small amount of resources (sans dress), it's unlikely that the QM would offer such an option, as it would generate a large amount of salt.

But once again, this might just be residual salt speaking.