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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
[X] There is something you should discuss, yes. Fair warning: It's gonna be heavy.
-[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around. Full serious mode.

[X] There is a secret. It's an infohazard. It remains a secret to puella society, because almost every magical girl who learns it shortly thereafter dies from their soul filling with despair. It's that bad.
-[x] If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands. It would almost certainly kill her.

[X] Learning this will affect Sayaka:
-[X] It will change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
-[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let it slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, and generally do everything she can to not let it get out. Or else many people, including her friends, could die.

[X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] You told Mami there was a secret, and Niko told Kazumi. They both decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing even this much, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.

[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] She doesn't have to know. If she decides not to, you won't think any less of her.
-[X] Witch Hunt? Cool down hugs?
 
mCooperative said:
In all fairness, there's some level of existing context for doing the phylactery thing and taking the demerit/doing a self sacrifice in the name of Doing Justice. The Lichbomb is awful, but its real push is that it demonstrates Cubes values the utility of meguca powers and lich advantages over informed consent. While that's awful in a number of ways, particularly in this cultural context, that utility-over-consent thing is also, I'm pretty sure, a thing that society has kinda trained us to expect from those in power. The Soul Gem thing itself is not, strictly speaking, a death sentence if it seems that's all that's been done. Your metaphysical bits have been shuffled into a new housing. You can still live your life, it's not gonna kill you, it's just that Kyubey did a severe violation of your right to exist as a single contiguous unit, and your right to make informed decisions about your own existence.

It's not that new, is what I'm saying. It's awful, and the unverifiable "ah yes we're human-resources-ing you now to stave off The Heat Death long after your species will probably be gone" is awful, and the whole thing shits on the idea of informed consent. But history, past and present, has plenty of that, people-wise. And the idea of taking that chunk of the system and trying to reclaim and repurpose it to Do Good, willfully, deliberately, by your own choice? That's not really so strange at all. (For other meguca, from places where there isn't as much an emphasis on a whole and contiguous body-and-soul, I imagine it's even less of an issue, beyond the "dude tell us first, that's sketchy as fuck and removing my soul without telling me is creepy as hell" thing.)

So- the Lichbomb on its own won't always be enough to dissuade people with goals, even knowing how Cubes deceives people.

But the Witchbomb is another story- the fact that becoming a meguca was until now and probably still is for most, a literal death sentence, and moreover, also a condemnation that you'll likely be transformed into killer-of-people, and destroyer of all that you were trying to save, destroyer of all that Doing Good that you'd wanted to do?

People can live with the equivalent of someone mucking around with their internal organs without telling them in order to give them superpowers, even if it's so they can fight someone else's war. People cannot live with death. And generally have a pretty hard time with the destruction of everything they've fought for, too.


... so basically, dissuading contractees is going to become a very interesting job, once we've actually got de-witching down properly.
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When explaining the lichbomb, I believe that we do also explain that "full gem = death."

Without the witchbomb, it's possible for someone to believe that Kyubey's goal really is to fight evil (witches) and he's just willing to use whatever means are necessary to recruit new soldiers.

Once you know that it's Kyubey who creates the witches in the first place, that the whole war is a false flag, an excuse to recruit girls so he can feed on their energy, that it's all a lie... then you realize that the cause that you sacrificed your soul for was meaningless.

Honestly, even without the witchbomb, if we reveal that Kyubey created witches in the first place and that it was getting the contracts that was the ultimate goal, that will still do a good job of demonstrating that Kyubey is the true villain of the piece.


Redshirt Army said:
-[X] You told Mami there was a secret, and Niko told Kazumi. They both decided to not know.
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Same thing I said to Onmur earlier: I feel like we need to establish earlier that Mami consented to not know this, rather than us making the decision for her.
 
Kaizuki said:
I... Try to dissuade her?

*Frowns*

If anything I want to tell her. What part didn't work right?
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For my own part, the decision to not bringing Sayaka's desire to be useful or how she could help into it carried over from Onmur's vote plus the first part of the yellow paragraphs very much gives the impression that the argument is against telling her.

EDIT: To elaborate, I feel that not telling Sayaka anything about why she would want to know very much skews everything in favor of her deciding against it.
 
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Skelm said:
If we remove the biggest drawbacks of making a contract, then why shouldn't they?
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I suspect that it's going to take us a lot longer to dewitch someone than it does for them to contract. Not to mention whatever limitations there are on the supply of whatever we create to replace Clear Seeds (because Clear Seeds will no longer be available when we're turning witches back into people).

It would be better to not unnecessarily add to the number of magical girls that will end up dependent on us.


The Phoenixian said:
EDIT: To elaborate, I feel that not telling Sayaka anything about why she would want to know very much skews everything in favor of her deciding against it.
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Wanting to know is going to be Sayaka's default response. People are curious and when told that there's something being kept from them, will immediately want to know it. As well, Sayaka is prideful and straightforward and probably has trouble with the concept of compartmentalizing information.

Or put another way: she's not asking because she doesn't want to know.
 
mCooperative said:
so how do you always break like this???? Why? If even a good-for-nothing like me has managed to hold it together-
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People break in different ways. Some like Sayaka will express their pain physically and dramatically, and others like Homura will hold their pain inside and detach themselves from the part of them that is in pain.

Homura is not weak, but she isn't stronger than Sayaka. Homura's trauma has broken her, but we are slowly mending her. When she wasn't broken so badly, she had a favorable opinion of Sayaka, befriended her, and truly cared for her well-being.

That is the Homura that lets herself acknowledge feelings for more than just the one person special to her. That is how we will know when she's fully mended. And that Homura is one that would be able to convince everyone to avoid the things that would lead to their deaths.

[X] Redshirt Army
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Jun 6, 2018 at 1:57 AM, finished with 139008 posts and 17 votes.
  • [X] There is something you should discuss, yes. Fair warning: It's gonna be heavy.
    -[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around. Full serious mode.
    [X] There is a secret. It's an infohazard. It remains a secret to puella society, because almost every magical girl who learns it shortly thereafter dies from their soul filling with despair. It's that bad.
    -[x] If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands. It would almost certainly kill her.
    [X] Learning this will affect Sayaka:
    -[X] It will change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
    -[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let it slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, and generally do everything she can to not let it get out. Or else many people, including her friends, could die.
    [X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
    -[X] You told Mami there was a secret, and Niko told Kazumi. They both decided to not know.
    -[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing even this much, but you are making her the same offer.
    -[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.
    [X] Reassure Sayaka.
    -[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
    -[X] She doesn't have to know. If she decides not to, you won't think any less of her.
    -[X] Witch Hunt? Cool down hugs?
    [X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
    [X] Stop searching. This is more important. Make sure KB isn't around.
    [X] Sayaka should make sure her other self doesn't telegraph anything. You're in no hurry, and you can pause at any time that's necessary.
    -[X] Nothing you're going to discuss here gets related to anyone. You'll elaborate as you go.
    [X] Broadly explain the concept of an infohazard. It's a little bit like Heresy, except a lot worse.
    [X] Mami and, you're told, six of seven Pleiades have declined this information.
    -[X] This discussion is about whether Sayaka wants this information, not whether she should be told it. And you're going to make her take until at least tomorrow to think about it.
    [X] Hammer on these lines at length and in variation until Sayaka is appropriately cognizant:
    -[X] Infohazards are, obviously, a responsibility. You don't talk about them, slip up with them, confide in your best friend about them: that kills people. That is a permanent burden, and it's not a fun one: it's working a job 24/7. No alcohol.
    -[X] Infohazards hurt. She's low risk and in special circumstances: it'd probably only permanently change her outlook on life for the worse. Normal consequences of exposure include psychoses, insanity, horrible death, sudden homicidal actions: no matter what, it will make her world a much more horrible place.
    [X] Stress that she doesn't need this information to be incredibly helpful: also stress that you're not just saying this to try to dissuade her. There are upsides and downsides to both options, but it's an infohazard: you can't discuss the upsides to knowing without exposing her. You will say that none of them are fun.
    -[X] Regardless of her decision, you hope to enlist her as a courier for related problems. Routinely being more than a few minutes from Mitakihara is unacceptable for the foreseeable future, but with teleportation you hope to stretch that definition.
    [X] If she decides she wants to know, you'll explain everything and then you won't let her go anywhere alone for a short while -- probably buy her ice cream. Basic observation period that'll double as Q&A. Don't want her leaving and then going crazy.
    -[X] This will be a permanently standing offer. You should also note that there is some -- very small -- chance of exposure in the course of everyday life. If it happens, she'll know -- she should ask for help immediately.
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her. She's a good friend, has a great heart, and you're glad to have her on the team.
    [x] Funny you should ask. We were just discussing that.
    [x] Have Sayaka give us her full attention. This is Serious Business.
    [x] When we told Mami the truth about Soul Gems and how Kyubey was manipulating her, the emotional trauma almost killed her. And this secret is even worse.
    [x] We gave a Mami a choice whether or not to know this, and she chose not to. Which was a relief, because magical girls that learn this have been known to take their own life or go insane.
    [x] If we tell you this, you have to keep the secret. You can't tell your friends. You can't let it slip in a moment of anger. You can't even talk about it with other people in the know unless we take measures to ensure secrecy, like Homura's timestop or our privacy sphere.
    [x] With all that said, think about whether or not you really want to know this. We won't be able to tell you until after school when we can meet with your real body inside a privacy sphere. Use that time to think about whether or not this is a burden you want to put on yourself.
    [x] Funny, you and Homura were just talking about that.
    -[x] Homura thinks that telling Sayaka is too dangerous. She thinks it'll destroy Sayaka and that Sayaka will take everyone with her.
    -[x] You think that Sayaka's Wish to be Useful will give her the strength she needs.
    [x] Tell Sayaka to take a bathroom break or something.
    -[x] Bet her a bucket of ice cream that she has to claim food poisoning and take the rest of the day off.
    -[x] Implement privacy sphere if Sayaka thinks it'll work. If it'd cut her off, just take security measures - no coobs allowed.
    [x] Explain the stakes. Pull no punches.
    -[x] If Sayaka tells Mami, she'll probably try to commit suicide.
    -[x] If Sayaka tells Madoka, Makoda Wishes then commits suicide, Homura possibly kills Sayaka in grief-stricken revenge and then commits suicide, and then everyone probably dies.
    -[x] Sayaka will have to keep this from everyone, especially her friends. You, Homura, Oriko, Nadia, and Niko are it. She will have some of the same secrets that you've been laboring under so long. Can she handle that?
    -[x] Does Sayaka understand how serious this is?
    [x] Explain why you're taking this risk: It's worth it. Sayaka Wished to be useful. This is the best thing she could possibly do. The responsibility of holding this secret is what she wanted to bear.
    [x] Give Sayaka the last chance to back out, same offer you give everyone else.
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Kaizuki said:
Can you elaborate a little bit? Or, I suppose I should...

Privacy spheres, telling Sayaka "this is stuff you shouldn't listen to," it's not a discussion of the subject matter.

If any of those lines answered your issue that's awesone, otherwise, uh, I'm sorry I'm not seeing it but could you specify plz <3
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I dunno, I'd just feel weird if someone asked for my continuous help in matters related to a topic I shouldn't know about, especially after the gave me the option not to know about it.

The Phoenixian said:
EDIT: To elaborate, I feel that not telling Sayaka anything about why she would want to know very much skews everything in favor of her deciding against it.
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The other votes don't do that neither.
 
redzonejoe said:
I think that put in the right context, the witchbomb can actually be viewed as a positive thing.

If the current belief is that full grief results in death, then changing that death part into 'temporary madness until somebody like me comes along to undo the process' is an improvement.

If the fact remains true regardless that witches exist and that they kill people, then it's not any worse, strictly speaking, to believe that witches can be turned back into people rather than simply being destroyed.
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Conjured Blade said:
Then you realize if Kyubey doesn't destroy grief seeds, and witchification doesn't kill you, hell is real and reserved for magical girls and witch copies, and the lions share of magical girls are ignorant and/or desperate enough to send you there.
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"This is still a good thing in the long run, though."

"What?"

"They're in hell, but they're still around, so the souls of all harvested magical girls have been saved from cessation of existence, unlike the vast majority of humanity. When we save them from hell, they'll be able to live happy and fulfilled lives for far longer than they were ever in hell."

"Um. I'm pretty sure that if we ever get around to building a posthuman utopia, we'll be able to postcog or rescue-simulate everyone anyways. It doesn't make a difference in the long run."

"...rain on my parade, why don't you."
Edit: Extending on this, magical girls are negative utlity monsters if this is the case and therefore utilitarian concepts of ethics should place their concerns above those of normal people. Seriously lovecraftian shit.
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Eh, 'negative utility monster' is a scare-word.

If Witches come above other concerns, it's because they're being constantly emotionally tortured, not because of some intersubjective notion of utilons. I'd rate saving Witches as incredibly important for exactly the same reason that most people would find 'saving people from torture' more important than 'hanging out with my friends', at least in the abstract.

Whether most people are able to live up to their own abstract moral evaluations is another story, but "what should I do about this?" and "do I have the spoons to do this?" are questions that come after "is this important?" and "why is this important?".
 
It could be useful to mention that we are currently working on the solution and we won't let that horrid reality stay for long, and it should be safe to talk about it eventually. Maybe even that she might hold the key to that solution (I heard something about artificial Soul Gems?).
 
[X] Redshirt Army

Yeah, We definitely need to emphasize that keeping the witchbomb a secret is a huge responsibility if we decide to tell her, and that we're giving her a lot of trust. Sayaka needs to know that if she shares it recklessly, she's putting the lives of Mami, Kazusa and the Pleiades saints at risk and that we can't tolerate that. Hopefully this'll convince her why she needs to be absolutely sworn to secrecy.
 
I don't think the "theory of infohazard" stuff is important, compared to talk on Sayaka's reaction. For one thing, Sayaka makes it clear she's got the gist of the idea of what an infohazard actually is with the"dangerous knowledge" comment, just not via the exact jargon. Far more important is what it would mean for her.

In Sayaka's case, we're worried that it would isolate her. And that's important, because it could very kill other magical girls who learned of it.

[X] There is something you should discuss, yes. Fair warning: It's gonna be heavy.
-[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around. Full serious mode.

[X] We're going to ask Sayaka some take time to think about whether she wants to know, but we can make the offer here.

I feel it better to open with the note that we're not telling Sayaka right now, rather than having it come in at the end of things. Avoids setting up false expectations.

[X] Sayaka's right: This is dangerous knowledge. It could easily kill people. It's a secret with a bodycount, and not a small one.
-[X] We gave Mami the offer and she chose not to know. It was the correct choice for her too; she's one of the people most vulnerable to this knowledge.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing even this much, but you are making her the same offer.

I don't want to be too specific here. Alluding to that the witchbomb drives girls to suicide and/or despair as a rule... kinda pertains to the nature of the secret, far more than I'm happy with.

[X] Learning this will affect Sayaka:
-[X] It will change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
-[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let it slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, and generally do everything she can to not let it get out. Or else many people, including her friends, could die.
-[X] Because of all that, our biggest worry is that it would leave Sayaka isolated, and set apart from her friends by the very real need to keep it secret.

Added the note I think is most necessary here: The whole isolation thing.

[X] On the other hand, this is something that can be fixed, and we plan to work on doing so. It should be... if never safe, then at least safer after that starts to happen. There's still that same risk, but it will be lesser.

So, here I very much disagree with Onmur's position that Sayaka shouldn't be told about the usefulness thing in any way. I think that this is at least something fixable should be said.

While pushing her into knowing is a problem and a fair point, the converse is that I'm very much worried that if we give her nothing but the cons she'll end up deciding against learning because the choice we offered her was not the one she actually faces or cares about.

I'm not sure what to propose instead. Giving her an out: that she might be able to help without knowing, comes to mind but I'm unsure of it and need to think about appending it or something else. Regardless, I don't think entirely avoiding it is the answer.

[X] It's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.

[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
--[X] Mami wasn't weak for choosing to avoid it, Kazumi wasn't weak for it, and neither would Sayaka be any less in your eyes.
-[X] Witch Hunt?

Ties choice not to know to someone she respects, and she knows we respect, to show she won't be wimping out rather than making it hers and hers alone.


[] There is something you should discuss, yes. Fair warning: It's gonna be heavy.
-[] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around. Full serious mode.

[] We're going to ask Sayaka some take time to think about whether she wants to know, but we can make the offer here.

[] Sayaka's right: This is dangerous knowledge. It could easily kill people. It's a secret with a bodycount, and not a small one.
-[] We gave Mami the offer and she chose not to know. It was the correct choice for her too; she's one of the people most vulnerable to this knowledge.
-[] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing even this much, but you are making her the same offer.

[] Learning this will affect Sayaka:
-[] It will change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
-[] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let it slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, and generally do everything she can to not let it get out. Or else many people, including her friends, could die.
-[] Because of all that, our biggest worry is that it would leave Sayaka isolated, and set apart from her friends by the very real need to keep it secret.


[] On the other hand, this is something that can be fixed, and we plan to work on doing so. It should be... if never safe, then at least safer after that starts to happen. There's still that same risk, but it will be lesser.

[] It's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.

[] Reassure Sayaka.
-[] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
--[] Mami wasn't weak for choosing to avoid it, Kazumi wasn't weak for it, and neither would Sayaka be any less in your eyes.
-[] Witch Hunt?

The Narrator said:
Wanting to know is going to be Sayaka's default response. People are curious and when told that there's something being kept from them, will immediately want to know it. As well, Sayaka is prideful and straightforward and probably has trouble with the concept of compartmentalizing information.

Or put another way: she's not asking because she doesn't want to know.
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A natural inclination to know is one thing. The problem here is that it kinda read like shouting "Doom!" at length (which, to be fair, is valid in this case) but without any part given to the other side of the issue.

Because for all there is worry about pressuring Sayaka into this there's also the worry in my mind that this is something she would want to know, that she'd find in it a way to be truly useful that would give her wish weight and meaning rather than being forever in our shadow. That by being too paranoid, we might make the opposite mistake.
 
Guys!

Maybe we should open with offering that what we have to say is a heavy thing and right now we are talking to a clone. Then offer to wait till after class to dicuss this?

Of course that means we would of gone witch hunting RIGHT before explaining what a witch is/was. It may also run into issues with Mami being near by if we tell Sayaka later.
 
did we tell Sayaka about our meta knowledge? because if we have I like the idea of using @Dragontrapper line

still shorter version of post and its not a fraken vote!

[X] Yes we have secrets, but they are secrets for a reason - especially this one.
-[X] We should do this in private - *make privacy sphere, if this effects the clone break to vote*
-[X] Mami knows we hold this secret and elected not to know it for the moment once she learned of its gravity.
-[X] Saying that - telling this information to Mami may very well kill her. It's information that could kill many magical girls depending on how and when you tell them. Sayaka Miki you are being given the ability, by simple divulgence of information, to kill most magical girls - and my girl friend. It might very well kill you if I judged you wrong. That is setting aside the effects of possible isolation from knowing it and needing to keep it secret.
-[X] So... do you want to know?
 
I would like us to delay the whole process, so we have more time to observe her as we consider giving her the bomb. Make our reply should be a preamble. At this time, we should not just say, but train into her the negative value of the choice to know. One positive way to get this done would be a discussion based on the concept of infohazards inside a movie plot. "In the Mouth of Madness." Further, we should talk about the personal cost first.


Start with the changes that the infohazards will bring, if she survives. Some part of her happiness will die. Look to Homura and Niko as examples.

Explain it will probably end her chance at a relationship with Kyosuke.

Continue with the sorts of destruction that will occur if she falls to the stress. Death is not the only consequence.

You should also note that there is some -- very small -- chance of exposures in the course of everyday life. If it happens, she'll know -- she should ask for help immediately. This risk is why we are considering passing the secret to her at all.

Cannot tell her in school, nor on a weekday. Have a movie night, and show her "In the Mouth of Madness" or similar. Let her discuss this in abstract, and assure her that it is entirely analogous.

Explain the sorts of countermeasures we will take even if she reacts without undue stress.


We should let that all sink in for a day. Following that, the pros and cons can be discussed. This is where we explain the lives we would be wagering on Sayaka, and the fates we have seen. We can also try to outline the utility of knowing. Another good way to way to consider our task is to tell her in stages. First stage would be "Magical Girls are designed to die, and that is deeply related to the reason they are offered Contracts." The later step refines that "Witches are insane humans victimized by their own curses." We keep correcting it over a few days until she knows the facts.
 
Spectral Waltz said:
I feel like the votes are getting longer than they need to be now guys...
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I mean, this is a delicate topic that we want to treat with all seriousness. As much as Firn is a merciful god, I believe it's been said he doesn't have the time for keeping up with the minutiae of the thread's intent lately? And this is on the list of very last places we want to slip up or miss something. It would be hard, I think, to completely blow this conversation- because I do think I believe in this Sayaka, and her resilience. But at the same time, any risk we can avoid... We promised Homura we'd do better. Whether it ends reasonably or not- in word and deed, taking the risk of a misstep we can avoid risking, not treating this discussion with the utmost care that we can collectively manage, that's not 'better'. At least- she won't think it's better. What we do and how we do it should stand up to scrutiny of planning, not just winging it. And also, all the better to reassure Homura that we take things seriously, and therefore she can hopefully let up a little of the panic that has to hit her whenever we do New(tm) things, when we can honestly tell her, we had a very careful plan, and then outline it. I dunno, I get the feeling itemized plans are always really reassuring, even if you have to diverge from them to adapt to new situations. Maybe that's just me. And my projecting onto teh Homu and I'mma move on.

But anyway. I think this is one of those times where a long vote, specific and clear, is in order. Even past the wordcount if we gotta- I can and will cite word-of-Firn that there are times where, if we think it's important enough, we can ditch it. I don't expect this part of the conversation to telescope the day quite as far as the Long Tuesday, and I'm not even sure the Witchbomb itself, if we face it, will do so, because we've planned for this, and also, aren't parsing out the most delicate details of someone's falters and falls. But a clear and cohesive plan now is part of why I think that. And if the day does telescope, then frankly, this is an entirely reasonable topic to do so on.


... Mostly unrelatedly, reading the Discord has reminded me that we may want an explicit note to not outline this Offer Of Witchbomb Warnings Conversation over telepathy, since it's basically scheduling a 'Kyubey Come Spy On Us At This Time And Place' alarm. Also to not talk about anything relating to this conversation over telepathy ever. So yeah. Also.

[x] The Phoenixian

@The Phoenixian any of the chance of the adding the telepathy-contraindication warning? Either way, like this vote, comprehensive is good.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Because for all there is worry about pressuring Sayaka into this there's also the worry in my mind that this is something she would want to know, that she'd find in it a way to be truly useful that would give her wish weight and meaning rather than being forever in our shadow. That by being too paranoid, we might make the opposite mistake.
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The odds of Sayaka saying no unless we directly ask her to say no are astronomically small. That's my take on this. So I'm purely interested in making it as informed a decision as possible essentially as a formality.

I suppose people want me to talk about upsides.

-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing even this much, but you are making her the same offer.

-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
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I don't really support these lines. Primarily I'm opposed to a scenario where we display anything resembling doubt that she can handle the knowledge, and I feel these lines will generate that. We're worried she'll have a slip of the tongue; we're not worried about her imploding like we are with Mami. And one way we can actually fuck this up would be to imply that she shouldn't know because she couldn't handle knowing. So, I'd like to stay away from that.

Furthermore, the @Redshirt Army vote is ignoring the extant possibility of in-class Sayaka reacting to this conversation... Right next to Madoka... Didn't we just tell Homura we wouldn't have that sort of thing happen?

Modified vote to try to render a more equal evaluation of upsides and downsides. Cut the courier stuff because it's irrelevant. Oh, and no telepathy statement.

[X] Cut this vote at any time Author pleases.
[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. This is more important. Make sure KB isn't around.
[X] Sayaka should make sure her other self doesn't telegraph anything. You're in no hurry, and you can pause at any time that's necessary.
-[X] Nothing you're going to discuss here gets related to anyone, which also means no telepathy. You'll elaborate as you go.
[X] Broadly explain the concept of an infohazard. It's a little bit like Heresy, except a lot worse.
[X] Mami and, you're told, six of seven Pleiades have declined this information.
-[X] This discussion is about whether Sayaka wants this information, not whether she should be told it. And you're going to make her take until at least tomorrow to think about it.

[X] Hammer on these lines at length and in variation until Sayaka is appropriately cognizant:
-[X] Infohazards are, obviously, a responsibility. You don't talk about them, slip up with them, confide in your best friend about them: that kills people. That is a permanent burden, and it's not a fun one: it's working a job 24/7. No alcohol.
-[X] Infohazards hurt. She's low risk and in special circumstances: it'd probably only permanently change her outlook on life for the worse. Normal consequences of exposure include psychoses, insanity, horrible death, sudden homicidal actions: no matter what, it will make her world a darker place.

[X] Stress that she doesn't need this information to be incredibly helpful: also stress that you're not just saying this to try to dissuade her. There are upsides and downsides to both options, but it's an infohazard: you can't truly discuss the upsides to knowing without exposing her. You will say that none of them are fun... But if there weren't significant benefits you'd just suppress this completely.

[X] If she decides she wants to know, you'll explain everything and then you won't let her go anywhere alone for a short while -- probably buy her ice cream. Basic observation period that'll double as Q&A. Don't want her leaving and then going crazy.
-[X] This will be a permanently standing offer. You should also note that there is some -- very small -- chance of exposure in the course of everyday life. If it happens, she'll know -- she should ask for help immediately.
-[X] Hug the stuffing out of her. She's a good friend, has a great heart, and you're glad to have her on the team.
 
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mCooperative said:
... Mostly unrelatedly, reading the Discord has reminded me that we may want an explicit note to not outline this Offer Of Witchbomb Warnings Conversation over telepathy, since it's basically scheduling a 'Kyubey Come Spy On Us At This Time And Place' alarm. Also to not talk about anything relating to this conversation over telepathy ever. So yeah. Also.
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Maybe make the real Sayaka pass a written note to Homura (now or next recess)?
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] If she decides she wants to know, you'll explain everything and then you won't let her go anywhere alone for a short while -- probably buy her ice cream. Basic observation period that'll double as Q&A. Don't want her leaving and then going crazy.
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Maybe specify somewhere in there that we would be explaining after school and not right away? I think the notion of not wanting to explain to a clone is probably a good one but I don't see that anywhere in your vote.
 
Spectral Waltz said:
Maybe specify somewhere in there that we would be explaining after school and not right away? I think the notion of not wanting to explain to a clone is probably a good one but I don't see that anywhere in your vote.
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Kaizuki said:
-[X] This discussion is about whether Sayaka wants this information, not whether she should be told it. And you're going to make her take until at least tomorrow to think about it.
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