Sure we can. Heat is easy for us to produce, so we can just reflux it continuously. Or just apply ridiculous energies to instantly bring it back to a boil when needed.

Ah, I misspoke, I meant to say 'magical bullshit' rather than 'Grief haxx'. Two very separate technical terms, in fact. }=o)

[q] That omake about Madoka curing everything with hope and compassion is suddenly relevant now.

That's the thing I'd forgotten, before I was distracted by waffles and hammerspace commentary! I mean, Homura probably still wouldn't be happy if we proposed taping Grief Seeds or Clear Seeds to Madoka, but here we are!
 
Also, while it might seem bizarre and unhealthy for Mami to have developed such strong feelings towards Sabrina (including love) in such a short time

Bear in mind I'm saying this out of character, and even then some of you may dissagree or think I'm being cynical, but I think in real life romance is nothing but being in love with love and by that I don't mean is something bad, on the contrary, healthy romances are fun and give you the opportunity of chooshing who you want to fall truly in love with, that's why the idea of romance became so popular.

But I'm of the mind that to truly love someone you must truly know them, and that takes time. What Mami feels for Sabrina probably is just infautation, which is something very natural (not created like the idea of romance) that happens to everybody and doesn't require a lot of time to develop; and by that I don't mean it it will be something fleeting, all true love starts with infautation; but yeah, being infautuated doesn't preclude, at all, being able to take your own decisions and having your own opinions even if they're contrary tho those of the object of your affections (asserting your own agency? ...you know what I mean, where not taking advantage of Mami, I think she's a mature enough person to take descisions with her head and not let herself be swayed by her feelings).
 
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Nadia did specifically name her as the global soul expert. I'll add that?
Keep in mind that if we decide to call Rionna right now (and we don't know what time it is in the timezone she's currently occupying, but if she's crossing the Eastern Hemisphere to get to Japan then it's nighttime), then we'll be asking Nadia to connect us like we did with Tsubaki last night and basically introducing ourselves to a total stranger who knows nothing about us or what a Clear Seed is. So we'd be explaining who we are, what we're about, and the entire situation with Aurora from the beginning, not just giving her an update on the "latest results." This will be an in-depth conversation that will require more than one line of a vote. It will be at least an update unto itself.
 
Some rando calling you about some weird science project they have isn't a good way to make a first impression, IMO. It's better to do the science discussion when we've met in person, and assured that she isn't actually bad or something.

EDIT: Remember Rionna arrives around the same time Sayaka was originally prophesied to die. Correlation does not equal causation, of course, but it's still something we need to be aware of.
 
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Should it just be its own update, with this vote just calling her and breaking to voting when she picks up?

Yes, absolutely. If we're going to be calling her, one sentence of minor subvote is nowhere near enough guidance to the approach. Riona is Important - quite possibly more important then Madoka or Homura are to truly breaking the system.
 
I'm not sure about talking with Oriko about the future right now, and it might be getting to the time of the day to check on Kyouko and Yuma.

I'd like to check Aurora's Grief absorption, test whether she'll absorb normal magic as readily as happy-thoughts magic (if there's even a difference :p), and feed her more magic. Maybe we can even do that while flying.
My concern here is that Oriko's memories of her visions are becoming less and less clear. Plus, while I have it in my notes... it'll be months before we get another chance to talk and I've had this in mind for almost a year now already.

I'm still scratching my head as to why you believe anyone would attempt to infuse magic into clear seeds casually.
I'll point out that people do sometimes do things like that without much reason. Sometimes you just, do things on the vaguest impulse and an interesting result comes out of it.

The idea that Aurora grumbled because she wanted to use that "Enchanted to be malleable/workable" grief to create a new body (instinctively sensing it possible) is intruiging.... how does that relate to the reaction to injecting /happy-thoughts/ magic?

Gonna look for post/quote, didn't we already try "poke a seed with generic magic" and it just splashed off or failed to really insert? This clearly had a different effect....but I'm not sure if that was Aurora (pre-oddness or post) or even a clear seed at all.

We really do need to either try finding a real-person-tie to one of these three gems (do we have any idea who their meguca were pre-witching? Or were they all canon witches that happened before/offscreen ?) to try and see if familiar-soul hugs have an effect. Anri with that seed is one obvious target, but it certainly seems easier to research other witches rather than try to get her reliable enough for SCIENCE!
Our attempt to work with Hildegard was during Our Benefactor pt 4

You contemplate Hildegarde's Grief Seed for a moment. That's right, there was a test you meant to do, but you forgot to, didn't you? You remember how you awaken puella magi who were knocked out, a spark of magic, pulsed through your fingers to shock someone back to wakefulness.

You lay your fingertips agaisnt the clear Seed, and jolt it with magic.

The magic flickers out as you'd expected, fizzling in the air before decohering. It mostly seems to skim off the surface of Hildegarde's Seed, to no real effect on the Seed.

Hmmm. You rock back in the chair, trying another flare of magic as the chair spins slowly about. The magic doesn't really seem to penetrate very far into the Seed, mostly vanishing before it gets very far in. Hildegarde herself, itself, doesn't seem to react to the little sparks of magic, either.

Not very helpful.

Current Aurora thoughts:
[] Feed Aurora continuously. The joy of flight and your happiness at making progress on helping her.

That or a thematically appropriate piece of music. Though that may be better served later in the process, once we make proper contact.

And now I really need to write something up for my take on the vote.
 
The blasphemer!
What's next? Telling that Riona is more important than Mami?!

Well, I mean... most of Mami's direct value to breaking the system comes from being an extremely skilled enchantress, but that's hampered by not being able to bring her fully in on dewitching efforts.

More indirectly, her reputation and ties to established networks (like Nadia) are what's really "useful" about sticking with her, and that's likely to become less valuable as we continue extending our reach beyond Mami's former area of influence.

There's an awful lot of reasons to stick by Mami in terms of characterization and simply caring, and it wouldn't have been possible to make contact with other megucas so quickly without her having laid the groundwork, but Riona is probably more important then Mami in terms of figuring out dewitching at this point, yes.
 
Yes, absolutely. If we're going to be calling her, one sentence of minor subvote is nowhere near enough guidance to the approach. Riona is Important - quite possibly more important then Madoka or Homura are to truly breaking the system.

While I agree with your conclusion, because being polite is important here and Mami just noted to us that telepathy is not always the best way to introduce yourself, I disagree with your reasoning:

For one, it's strikes me a bit of hype. What we know is that Riona manipulates the soul, that she will be is interested in something we try to do, and that she is strong. Not much more. We've consistently had problems with conclusion jumping. See the recent "Oriko's dad killed her mom" thing.

For another, however, it's quite clear we have many of the parts of dewitching and changing the system. At this point, if we can open communications with Aurora, whether it's one via some communications device or just giving her a body to speak with us with, then I suspect that's the enough to net us a very rudimentary form of dewitching. A form that will probably take ten man-years of work to input ~20 million ccs of magic, but one that I think is very probable to work. After that, it's just a matter of refining the process, ensuring there's no memory loss, dealing with any remaining trauma, and building a proper body.

It's also possible that Godwinson's hypothesis that witches are truly separate beings is correct, but even that is one more issue deal with, rather than an insurmountable obstacle. And may just fall under the "memory loss" bit.

Of course, dewitching isn't enough to enact permanent change on it's own but the other missing piece there is "just" some alternate means of cleansing. If we can devise something to both pull out grief out of gems and seeds and either replicate itself or be replicated by the work magical girls? As long as it takes less magic to make than the amount it can cleanse in grief then that right there is a working solution.

Riona's aid will certainly be useful, but we aren't ten thousand miles off from having any solution at all without her. If anything, I'd currently expect the most important help we have is Sayaka. And not just due to copied powers: If the current stage of things is necessary then the base mechanic of her power and the gems she creates might be able to help fill clear seeds orders of magnitude faster than the slow burn we can currently expect.

Usually that's, like, booping a dog's nose, not doing weird abstract stuff to the most valuable item you ever have or ever will see.

Well, we are talking about teenagers here and teens aren't super well known for reverence. That said, this isn't something I expect would happen before clear seeds were spread fairly widely. It's far more likely that someone knowledgeable, like Niko or the Fukushima group would attempt to inject magic willfully in some attempt to bring someone back.

In fact, I wouldn't put it past some group with a recent loss to hand us their friend to make into a clear seed in an desperate attempt to save her.

Hmnm.... One thing I do think we should test is what happened when Aurora is left near an enchanted object that isn't grief. Because if she pulls the magic out of enchanted grief, do we also have to worry about clear seeds seeds pulling it out of other enchantments? That's the sort of thing that could get interesting for Fukushima given Yuki's enchanted building focus.

Well, even if that's not the case, I'm in favor of telling people what's up for a simple reason: It may or may not be super important as safety information, but if they ever find out about witches, especially after losing someone to a witchout, then all of our dire warnings suddenly turn around and become an instruction manual.

That's half the problem, the other half is Sabrina's actions change Oriko's visions so whatever prediction Oriko had may be outdated by now.
Her visions being outdated is pretty irrelevant to the argument posited. If it was impossible for her to see changes to herself, then it's possible she never would have seen such things as herself using healing or enchantment before she actually learned those skills regardless of our intervention.
 
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Well, I mean... most of Mami's direct value to breaking the system comes from being an extremely skilled enchantress, but that's hampered by not being able to bring her fully in on dewitching efforts.

More indirectly, her reputation and ties to established networks (like Nadia) are what's really "useful" about sticking with her, and that's likely to become less valuable as we continue extending our reach beyond Mami's former area of influence.

There's an awful lot of reasons to stick by Mami in terms of characterization and simply caring, and it wouldn't have been possible to make contact with other megucas so quickly without her having laid the groundwork, but Riona is probably more important then Mami in terms of figuring out dewitching at this point, yes.

Why is Redshirt Army still spouting his rabble? Why isn't he dead by tacklehugs?
Is he... a witch?!

( I understand your reasoning, and I do realize you said "quite probably", not, for example, "most certainly". However, we know next to nothing about Riona, and placing such an emphasis on a person we've never even met seems to me a tad premature. If she meets our expectations I'll consider- consider!- placing her on par with our parents. :V)
 
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Haha, it's been done to death, but that's what happens when I don't go to sleep in time.

Dedolere, the Witch of Grief. Her Nature is Certainty. She is the demiurge connecting divine and mortal, who hews and severs with as much abandon as she who used to knead and weave in her previous life. With the last puzzle falling into place, the doom of the world is inevitable. Indeed, in knowing the certainty of death for all things, one attains true liberation...

That's my take on who Dedolere could be. I think "Grieve no more" might mean "Rejoice, for the true end is nigh", or something. Like, attaining serenity in the face of the inevitable.
If you find references, why, I've placed them there. :V
Also drawing parallel to UKG, 'cause if Sabrina is Madokami's agent, it would be fitting for UKG to have the same relationship to Dedolere. And now, with my sudden craving for not-quite-Shitposting satisfied, I go to sleep.
 
Aurora is the remnant of a person, and grief is concentrated human suffering.

While seeds are used to clean grief, we are looking for a more ethical alternative, and we ourself do not need seeds to clean with.

If the experiment is absolutely neccesary, then a field test with a Dirty Soul Gem would model the situation far more closely, and potentially tell us much more than using our grief manipulation to push grief in.

However it would still be easier to tell Magical Girls that Clear Seeds act strangely when enchanted, and could potentially be wakening. And this could pertain to Grief Seeds as well.

Edit: Heck, Enchanting Grief Seeds might be something that's already been done and have a warning for.
 
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uhh, grief seeds can clean our gem normally,we don't need to use our powers for it.
That isn't what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting to not experiment on Aurora with grief, as we should just warn Meguca not to enchant Clear Seeds or even Grief Seeds.

Also, why do you want to use the remnant of a girl's soul when Sabrina doesn't need to?
Adhoc vote count started by The Phoenixian on May 20, 2018 at 4:08 AM, finished with 138234 posts and 9 votes.

  • [x] Aurora
    -[X] Try using her to cleanse your Gem.
    -[X] Feed her normal magic, then feed her continuously. Make it a monolog with your current emotions: Try to channel the joy of flight.
    -[X] Let her have the enchanted grief back once you're busy.
    [X] The Kures:
    -[X] Discuss House Arrest.
    --[X] Per Vote in Abeyance.
    -[X] After the house arrest talk:
    --[X] Ask Oriko if she knows about the Shirome potentials.
    --[X] Ask Oriko if her visions have ever shown her using a skill she didn't already know, or her taking an action because she had changed as a person.
    ---[X] You're curious if matters about who she is are a blind spot in her visions. Like how she couldn't see herself succeeding with her enchantments and had to practice.
    [X] Afterwards:
    -[X] See how Aurora interacts with normal enchanted items.
    -[X] Repeat the tests you ran on Aurora with Hildegard and Elsa Maria to compare and contrast how they interact.
    -[X] Use enchanted grief to try to make a device for analyzing and/or talking to grief seeds.
    [x] Aurora
    -[x] Leave it be, come back to it later
    [X] The Kures:
    -[X] Discuss House Arrest.
    --[X] Apologize for the sudden birb invasion.
    --[X] Explain yesterday's talk.
    --[X] Offer your thoughts. Progress is gonna be slow, and if they agree to the changes, that would help.
    --[X] Ask what they think.
    ---[X] Ask if they want to move out into a new apartment.
    -[X] Ask Oriko if she knows about the Shirome potentials.
    [X] Afterwards:
    -[x] Call Rionna.
    -[x] Break to voting.
 
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We need to know if Aurora can still absorb grief on her own, the more data the better, if she can't that would be a success. It may give us a clearer image of what is happening, I mean, I don't think people are suggesting to fill her to the brim with grief again, right?
 
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So, can I get some more votes?
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on May 18, 2018 at 8:21 PM, finished with 138197 posts and 3 votes.

  • [X] SCIENCE!, before reaching the Kures if possible:
    -[X] Aurora:
    --[X] Try using her to cleanse your Gem.
    --[X] Feed her 'normal' magic.
    -[X] Hildegarde, then Elsa Maria.
    --[X] Repeat magic feeding tests with them.
    [X] The Kures:
    -[X] Discuss House Arrest.
    --[X] Apologize for the sudden birb invasion.
    --[X] Explain yesterday's talk.
    --[X] Offer your thoughts. Progress is gonna be slow, and if they agree to the changes, that would help.
    --[X] Ask what they think.
    ---[X] Ask if they want to move out into a new apartment.
    -[X] Ask Oriko if she knows about the Shirome potentials.
    [X] Afterwards:
    -[X] Use enchanted grief to try to make a device for analyzing and/or talking to grief seeds.
    [x] Aurora
    -[x] Leave it be, come back to it later
    [X] The Kures:
    -[X] Discuss House Arrest.
    --[X] Apologize for the sudden birb invasion.
    --[X] Explain yesterday's talk.
    --[X] Offer your thoughts. Progress is gonna be slow, and if they agree to the changes, that would help.
    --[X] Ask what they think.
    ---[X] Ask if they want to move out into a new apartment.
    -[X] Ask Oriko if she knows about the Shirome potentials.
    [X] Afterwards:
    -[x] Call Rionna.
    -[x] Break to voting.
 
[X] Aurora:
-[X] Try using her to cleanse your Gem.
-[X] Feed her normal magic, then feed her continuously. Make it a monolog with your current emotions: Try to channel the joy of flight.
-[X] Let her have the enchanted grief back once you're busy.

[X] The Kures:
-[X] Discuss House Arrest.
--[X] Per Vote in Abeyance.
-[X] After the house arrest talk:
--[X] Ask Oriko if she knows about the Shirome potentials.
--[X] Ask Oriko if her visions have ever shown her using a skill she didn't already know, or her taking an action because she had changed as a person.
---[X] You're curious if matters about who she is are a blind spot in her visions. Like how she couldn't see herself succeeding with her enchantments and had to practice.

[X] Afterwards:
-[X] See how Aurora interacts with normal enchanted items.
-[X] Repeat the tests you ran on Aurora with Hildegard and Elsa Maria to compare and contrast how they interact.
-[X] Use enchanted grief to try to make a device for analyzing and/or talking to grief seeds.

EDIT: Expanded vote with more reasoning for the talk about the limits of Oriko's visions.
EDIT2: Clarified the intent of repeating the tests.
 
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