- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't even really know; Someone mentioned multiple Homuras running around, and I just ran with it.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
I don't even really know; Someone mentioned multiple Homuras running around, and I just ran with it.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
I had a random thought.
If we want to divine the true nature of Feathers, why don't we just ask Kyubey? He's good at that sort of thing.
If we want to divine the true nature of Feathers, why don't we just ask Kyubey? He's good at that sort of thing.
TJSomething
That's... that's impossible!
I feel like telling Kyubey about vague extratemporal entities is the sort of thing that causes the plot of Rebellion.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah. If Feathers is Homulily/Homucifer, then telling the Incubators about her seems like a bad fucking idea.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
The implications of narrative appropriateness and reasoning given in the original discussion are insufficient. This is Firn's work we're talking about: From all I've seen he writes PMAS like a detective story and puts (subtle) hints everywhere. If this is what was happening, we'd have concrete evidence of it by now even if we haven't actually realized it. (Indeed, Firn's note that there are hints as to what would come after the potentialbomb can even be read to imply as much.)
So I'm gonna say again that you still haven't given an in-universe reason for Homulilly to acquire that power.
Frankly, between attendant memory loss and lacking a way to acquire memory manipulation Occam's Razor for Homura's witch points firmly towards something happening after Rebellion than in the original timeline. For the latter to happen, the only mechanism to feed in knowledge from the future we're aware of is Echoes and at this point everything we've seen so far points towards transfer of knowledge, (and possibly potential?) but not of power.
Likewise, with UGK theory and the posited timeline. I can see a way for Madoka wishing for dewitching homura and a new universe where everything's better to feed into Walpurgisnacht theory, but not one to bring up UKG theory.
*facepalm* Missed the former image. Fair enough.
Right, I can't rebut the arguments given so "KG as Feathers" looks pretty fringe unless a new and very strong piece of evidence comes up in it's favor, but I'm still going say a thing here: By the same token that something can be fixed, it also has to be fixed and requires that we know what to fix and how to fix it.
We've seen already with Firn's note on Asunaro that problems won't wait patiently for us to get there and the one and only time anything new suddenly popped up, Sayaka nearly died as a result.
I don't like trusting that Madoka's wish will make everything better in it's own right because that's not what it was, and everything we know of Karma is still in place.
I'll point out again that since we have a feather, we can attempt to make a psychometer and magically determine it's past.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
The use of this particular argument is by contradiction: It invalidates any hypothesis that does not have a solution.
Karma is explicitly fucked. Our ability to withdraw Grief from gems alone is a major violation of Karma, the same way that the observation of a concrete, reliable time translation symmetry violation would imply that conservation of energy is toast.
I didn't think that that was the hypothesis being discussed? My understanding right now is that Feathers is Homura's Witch. That's one of the reasons I'm considering it as a possibility, because saving Homura from a despairing atemporal version of herself is exactly the kind of psychological-bullshit-backed-by-power that would precisely fit with the themes of PMAS, Firn's statement that he'd set Sabrina's power level, and Oriko's claims that it all revolved around Homura.
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- Location
- Potato land
Ok, let's say that's true. Does it help us in any way? Knowing that Feathers is Homulily, can we predict what it can do, and what it will do to attack us? What is its motivation?
Alternatively, does it explain what already happened? Why did it get to act when we went inside our barrier, why did it go after Sayaka, and why using such a peculiar method?
Sorry if I'm coming off as too aggressive here, and I don't mean to single you out specifically. It's just that, I feel like all of these "X is Y" hypotheses are like conspiracy theories in that they only pretend to explain anything, and have zero predictive power.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
All of these are covered in the chatlog in which the hypothesis was originally nailed down. To summarize:
- Homulilly is motivated by a twisted, defeatist adherence to her own Wish: She believes that she failed to protect Madoka, and she believes that Madoka is better off having never existed, and if anyone else looks like they'll be the one to save Madoka she'll kill them because she's no longer able to conceptualize Madoka being saved and thinks that anyone that's getting close is just prolonging her suffering.
- I'd have to reread to be certain, but I believe that there's some connection from Homulilly to all witches through us/UKG and this explains both how she's able to act when we enter our barrier (and how she can't find us when we're in time stop!) and why she attacked Sayaka the way she did.
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The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Right, as best as can be told we break karma due to not experiencing the suffering we hold, but this fundamental break is something done by us specifically. We also have a strange soul and given the whole "adfligo systema" and "I won't screw you on this wish" deal we may have been made or altered specifically for the purpose of being able to break everything. As such I'm extremely wary of applying that particular evidence more broadly than ourselves.
Uh, Veb, you may want to reread? This is half of what I've been arguing with Aura about for my past several posts.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
You can't give someone the ability to break karma without first breaking karma yourself.
Ah, you're right, I thought you were responding to my earlier post in a different way, and didn't notice that you said KG instead of UKG, my bad.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Unless my eyes are glossing over something, this is precisely the opposite of what is posted there. The idea there is that Homulilly has no connection to UKG which is why she's not part of us.
Which is part of why I don't like it: The theory posits that Madokami and Rebellion hasn't happened, then pulls evidence from timelines where they have to support itself. It's so much neater to say that it has happened and work from there.
The big draw of Feathers theories I think is that they both predict what the quest final boss is, and how to solve it. EG: Homucifer!Homura can be talked to and down here and now. Dissociated witch!Homulilly!Feathers will need a different approach. Dedolere!Feathers means we have to plan to stop or fight ourselves in the future. And something like KG!feathers would again need it's own separate approach.
How to actually confirm any of it... is definitely a major project.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I'm not sure that I'm willing to accept that we know that little about the greater setting of PMAS, if only so I can maintain even the faintest hope that this quest is winnable. If we don't even know who our enemy is, we're not out of the first act, maybe not even out of the introduction, and this quest has already chewed up and spat out most of the portion of sufficient velocity's population that is willing to engage with it. If we're looking at another two acts like this, or, Madokami forbid, four, we're totally and completely fucked.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Free-floating Grief is not making anyone suffer. Being able to move Grief out of a soul and hang on to it directly violates the conservation of hope and despair. This is why previous grief manipulators have only been able to operate by moving Grief between soul gems, why grief seeds (AKA tormented souls) are able to accept Grief from soul gems, and why the wraithverse spontaneously spawns assholes.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, I'm sorry, I just really like this part of your post.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything you'd done for her, she wouldn't hesitate to say for an instant that Homura is her greatest and best friend.
-[x] She is not a failure. She is not a good for nothing. You won't put up with hearing one of the most amazing people in the world, one of your friends, put themselves down like that.
[x] Conversation goals: Get Homura to a point where it's safe to let her think about all of this.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura hasn't met her own standards of success yet.
[x] Potentially, as needed to accomplish those goals:
-[x] She was put in a nearly impossible situation, and can't blame herself for that. You couldn't have done better, not in her shoes.
--[x] She still kept Mami and Sayaka in her heart to the end, even though they kept falling and taking Madoka with them. She kept trying, which is all anyone could ask.
-[x] You know what Homura's done, and you accept her. You'll believe in her to the end.
--[x] Madoka would too, you're certain of it.
-[x] Only because of Homura is there hope for a better world in the future.
--[x] Striving for a better outcome for everyone is what Madoka would have wanted from her.
-[x] Thank Homura for all she's done - and still is doing - for Madoka, you, and the world.
-[x] Provide tactile support and encouragement to the degree Homura is comfortable with it.
I feel that by going for a very clinical and detached vote direction @Vebyast is missing out on the emotional connection that's critical at this juncture - and given how sparse thread discussion on votes has been (as opposed to Grief metaphysics) I don't think that we can assume that the thread can make up for it.
I also think that at this point Homura isn't going to react particularly well to "surgery" or "looking for car key" analogies - they might be accurate, but this isn't a juncture for logical argumentation. Support Homura emotionally.
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- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
But I like discussing Grief metaphysics!
No, seriously, I do not trust myself to make the right decision in this sort of situation. Hell, I can barely tell the votes apart, I am that bad at social.
And when I do vote in these tense situations, I end up easily swayed by everyone's arguments, because as far as I can tell, the points they're making are not incompatible. They all just... Blur together. Therefore, I just bounce back and forth until I get fed up and declare [ ] Null.
I've said before that I'm only here for particle physics, Fluff, and shitposting. And that is true. Normally, I'm content to see these types of events unfold by themselves.
But... Fuck it. This time I do see the differences between votes. This time, I will stand my ground. We will help Homura- Sabrina's teammate, friend, and mother- as much as we can. And this is the vote to do that.
[X] Redshirt Army
I hope to the gods I'm making the right choice
No, seriously, I do not trust myself to make the right decision in this sort of situation. Hell, I can barely tell the votes apart, I am that bad at social.
And when I do vote in these tense situations, I end up easily swayed by everyone's arguments, because as far as I can tell, the points they're making are not incompatible. They all just... Blur together. Therefore, I just bounce back and forth until I get fed up and declare [ ] Null.
I've said before that I'm only here for particle physics, Fluff, and shitposting. And that is true. Normally, I'm content to see these types of events unfold by themselves.
But... Fuck it. This time I do see the differences between votes. This time, I will stand my ground. We will help Homura- Sabrina's teammate, friend, and mother- as much as we can. And this is the vote to do that.
[X] Redshirt Army
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Can you please change the word? It implies Homura won't ever be able to win (meaning she really is a failure, etc.)
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Edited.
- Location
- Illinois
Issues:
Homura legitimately does not care. Well, that's not quite precisely true, but it's close enough.
Over the course of the loops, Homura has chosen (knowingly or not) to throw away, desensitize herself too, or adopt alternative perspectives on a laundry list of topics in order to protect herself from the emotional damage originating from them. Hurting other people is not something she is unwilling to accept. As such, this is nothing more than chaff.
It's not clear that Homura would even see this as a good thing. After all, what would it have mattered except to encourage Madoka to be hurt again and again? That's the sort of thinking we're working against right now.
I'm heavily disinclined to this. It's little better than poison even if she would believe it. I'm sure we could convince her of it at length, maybe, but...
If she did believe it, it would lead to further self-recrimination for having given up. She decided to do everything on her own. She decided to turn down the grief seed from Mami, to stay away, etc. etc.
In your own metaphor, how do you feel when you give up looking and then the keys turn out to have been on the damn counter top the entire time? Only, your wife died because you gave up looking for them.
Homura and the rest of the entire cast are unaware that we possess any knowledge of possible futures. We really, really do not want to start down a chain of events that leads to us telling Homura about Madokami. There are some ways we could put this that would be acceptable ("we have a piece of knowledge literally saying that if Madoka could see everything Homura would done she would say that Homura has always been her very best friend"), but it's not terribly strong for the same reason that what we said last post hasn't magically fixed Homura -- she doesn't trust Madoka's perception of whether or not she has hurt Madoka. Honestly the intended sentiment was pretty much said IC last post.
"Even if you've been hurting Homura it'll all be okay now." :/
All of this said, I think it means something that the day I'm running on extra cognitive capability I'm liking this vote formatting so damn much.
>_> fml
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
-[x] Continuous cleanse.
[x] General arguments:
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't successful immediately.
-[x] Madoka believes Homura has done the right thing. (Currently complete)
[x] Conversation goals: Get Homura to a point where it's safe to let her think about all of this.
[x] Points, raise as natural rather than in any order:
-[x] Homura having "only hurt" Madoka through her actions is not compatible with Madoka being happy and uncontracted in this timeline.
-[x] The alternatives to the loops were unacceptable and Madoka could not have been happy with them.
-[x] Madoka asked her to "not let Kyubey trick her", not to "not let Kyubey contract her". (Only as a reply, DO NOT RAISE otherwise)
146 words. Current opinion.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Ignoring that we have a canon omake of Madokami showing up to visit even though the events that created her never happened...
My general hypothesis is that Madoka's wish turned her into a manifestation of her "Fix Everything" wish, as a sort of demi-Madokami that is subtly trying to micromanage the changes in the timelines and possibly feed us our metaknowledge so that everything can be fixed, and also it detwitched Wally and possibly UKG/Homulilly. I'm actually fairly confident that Homura was dewitched even if Feathers has nothing to do with Homulilly, actually.
Assuming any of the above is true, Sabrina being a dewitched UKG explains literally everything about Sabrina much more succinctly than Wally-theory, and can be explained as "UKG is something that needs to be fixed, because it's the personification of all Magical Girls that ever suffered, even if it was never allowed to exist."
I mean shit, UKG never existed in canon because Madokami keeps punching it out before it's born, but it's still the main antagonist of Wraith Arc and possibly the 4th Movie. Causality is fucked.
Read the Witch of Despair's Witch card and then invert it, and tell me that it isn't Sabrina. I'll wait.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Personally, I don't read PMAS's story structure that way.
I see the informational structure here being more akin to a game of Forum Mafia than the average story: We get hints here and there but at the heart of things information isn't handed to us based on pacing, it's something we make efforts to go out and acquire, and once we have most of it, a significant portion of the quest won. Not all of it, I expect that a lot of our conflict will be interpersonal and, eventually, political but knowledge of events, our capabilities, metaphysics and especially people so far appears to be a good 50-80% of the fight.
(For instance, think of just how much easier things like Sendai or Asunaro would be if we had known from the start exactly who was lichbombed and who was witchbombed, how much, when, and how. Or, moreso, if we'd known how what everyone's motives were from the outset. Likewise just our own capabilities.)
- Location
- Illinois
The emotional support is in the right directly definitely. We can do better than rehashing last post.