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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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mCooperative said:
We really do need more good fanfics where Homucifer and Madokami have just all up and managed to come to an equilibrium, proper-wise, and respect the things they hold up* the universe for, and now it's mostly an afterlife special where they do interesting things or do the whole "yes I am totally a human I am neither god nor the devil what nonsense is this suggestion I am clearly human and those are not feathers" life, in between just... coming to peace, and exploring the new world they've compromised themselves into. Minimal interpersonal conflict angst, more learning to live in the world again, and maybe the hijinks "Disguised, God And The Devil Walk Into A Bar Their Middle School" could cause. I've seen a few, but... not many. I think I've been given links to more NC-17 doujins with that premise, even, than I've found when I went through like all of AO3 and ff.net as of December.

I have one sorta idea for writing one, actually. Meh. When I have the time.


*double meaning intended
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I mean I'm still of the opinion that the ideal state for Homura and Madoka (maybe the only one due to Homura's wish) is for the two of them to mutually protect each other. Unlike the initial timeline it's not Madoka saving Homura, unlike later loops its not Homura saving Madoka.

Also reminds me of an idea I had (while drunk) where it starts off looking like adult!Madoka and Homura slice of life until Homura starts remembering being a magical girl and the loops because CLEARLY the initial set up is due to QB fucking about post series trying to figure out whats up with Homura. Oh and Sayaka also remembers since Sayaka is actually Madokami's troubleshooter and got sent in to see what was messing with the cycle and is wondering how when and why she is married to Kyouko.

Other drunk me had the idea of Touched by an Angel... but its Sayaka working for Madokami as an idea too.

PS: I'm reading Renascence so if I try to propose Homura be obsessed with clockwork ignore me.
 
DB_Explorer said:
I mean I'm still of the opinion that the ideal state for Homura and Madoka (maybe the only one due to Homura's wish) is for the two of them to mutually protect each other. Unlike the initial timeline it's not Madoka saving Homura, unlike later loops its not Homura saving Madoka.

Also reminds me of an idea I had (while drunk) where it starts off looking like adult!Madoka and Homura slice of life until Homura starts remembering being a magical girl and the loops because CLEARLY the initial set up is due to QB fucking about post series trying to figure out whats up with Homura. Oh and Sayaka also remembers since Sayaka is actually Madokami's troubleshooter and got sent in to see what was messing with the cycle and is wondering how when and why she is married to Kyouko.

Other drunk me had the idea of Touched by an Angel... but its Sayaka working for Madokami as an idea too.

PS: I'm reading Renascence so if I try to propose Homura be obsessed with clockwork ignore me.
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That seems like drunk-you had a very respectable set of plans going! Please, do proceed with them if you can- I'd be interested.

I agree with you on that ideal state- I think, yeah. Balance, balance, balance, and mutual respect for All The Issues (tm), ne?

I, too, am reading Renascence. And clockwork Spark-y Homura is clearly the optimal plan.
 
mCooperative said:
That seems like drunk-you had a very respectable set of plans going! Please, do proceed with them if you can- I'd be interested.
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.... huh was not expecting that reaction to the idea. Mind you I think Touched by Angle Sayaka would be more of a quest idea. Sayaka Miki - troubleshooter of the high goddess!

Unless its for the other idea then she's calling Homura and trying to figure out whats going on and for help since she freaked out and told Kyouko about the divergent timelines and now Kyouko's just going over all their dates in chronological order. I don't know how to deal with this!

Homura: Sayaka.... breath
Sayaka: ... right... did you tell Madoka anything?
Homura: Fuck no

mCooperative said:
I agree with you on that ideal state- I think, yeah. Balance, balance, balance, and mutual respect for All The Issues (tm), ne?
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That and like NGE, a lot of issued can/could be solved by talking but that's not the core theme of PMMM. I almost want to say PMMM seems to be about ideals vs reality, but thinking about it I don't have a clue.
 
I remember the idea of Madoka rez'ing Homura across the loops.

But now I'm considering whether we could actually ask such a thing somehow.



"Hey Homura, if I may ask... have you ever died?"

"... I'm... alive."

"Yes, I know, but with more than a hundred loops, at some point..."

"Sabrina... I'm not immortal."

*Exasperated gestures*

"I know, but you know, if something bad happens to Madoka, you loop; if you die, she Wishes you back, like, you look after each other, right?"

"..."

*Paralyzed*

"Both of you keep this thing going until it works and, well, that's how I came to be."

"..."

"I'm very grateful, by the way."

"..."

"Is it a bad time to talk about how I think you two should find a middle ground...? Madoka seems to have made the first step, with her last Wish.

"..."

"... If you want me to hug you, don't say anything."

"..."

*Hugs Homura*
 
random thought.... if we had Nadia (did I spell that right? Edit: No I did'nt) enchant a pocket watch could we make a pocket watch that NEVER stops ticking? even in Homura's timestop?

Homura: ... why a pocket watch?
Sabrina: it felt... appropriate
 
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[x] Conversation Goals:
-[x] Help Homura believe she deserves happiness and that it's achievable
-[x] Help Homura respect herself
-[x] Keep leading Homura instead of pushing or contradicting; she'll clam up otherwise

[x] Potentially useful specifics:
-[x] Homura knows that you think everyone deserves happiness. You got that from Madoka.
-[x] Homura got through the loops and is why Madoka was able to make the fully-informed Wish.
--[x] Side note, if Madoka is Mado-kaa, Homura is obviously Homumom.
-[x] Madoka wouldn't accept a reality where Homura didn't deserve happiness. Nor one where Homura believed it.
-[x] Praise Homura's determination.
--[x] Remind her that the universe is actively fighting her.
---[x] Evidence: It made an entire new enemy just for you.
--[x] You're having enough trouble with one loop. You can't imagine doing what Homura did.
-[x] Praise Homura's dedication. It's been, what, fifteen years for her? And she still protects Madoka.
 
DB_Explorer said:
random thought.... if we had Nadia (did I spell that right? Edit: No I did'nt) enchant a pocket watch could we make a pocket watch that NEVER stops ticking? even in Homura's timestop?

Homura: ... why a pocket watch?
Sabrina: it felt... appropriate
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So long as Homura keeps it on her person and wound/powered, it won't stop regardless.
 
Script Mak3r said:
So long as Homura keeps it on her person and wound/powered, it won't stop regardless.
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But actually, what such an object would actually be legitimately useful for would be telling when Homura has entered timestop without us. Not super relevant in everyday situations, because like, Homura can do what she wants, and has her own shit to do, but like, in a situation where we gotta be doing specific things, remotely, possibly without Cubes' telepathy coordinating for us, Homura entering timestop for some length of time and doing her thing, being indicated precisely on an object completely remote from her would be an excellent signal.
 
[X] Standing: Try to lead Homura with questions where possible. Continuous cleanse.
[X] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.
[X] Why does she think that?
-[X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
--[X] Await response, then break.

@Onmur @Aranfan @DB_Explorer minor adjustments good?
 
[X] Kaizuki

Seems good, I think. I kind of want to throw a bajillion contingencies in, but shorter updates are probably better for a situation this delicate.
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] Why does she think that?
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I don't think that this is a good idea. It almost unavoidably leads to a "Homura vs. Sabrina" dynamic as we attempt to argue against whatever she says.
Kaizuki said:
--[X] Await response, then break.
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I think that this vote is too open-ended. It kills some time but it doesn't move us forward; there's no goal that it directs us toward. I don't think we have the time to get anywhere by letting Homura ramble and hoping she says things that we can use; Firn simply can't write that much, and the timestop demonstrated pretty conclusively that we don't have the patience for that kind of thing.

Heroes act.
 
A clarification, with the 'Why...' I meant an instruction to Sabrina; not a line to Homura ("Why...").

Asking Homura why she thinks so, a somewhat literal interpretation, I think could work, but there's a need to balance two things as I see them.

One is that we can't not deny this; if we seem to accept what Homura just said, she can easily take it as confirmation. Two is that if we just go against what Homura expressed, she might think we just don't understand... that's why I went with both lines, one about denying Homura, the other about not quite doing so.

It might seem contradictory, but one's set as a general rule, while the other is a specific action, under the general rule.

Maybe the whole thing could use some re-wording.

It's about... hmmm... denying Homura's negative feelings from a position she can accept. Not to deny her feelings, not to validate them; there's not much wiggle room.
 
[x] Madoka wouldn't settle for a world where Homura didn't deserve happiness.

Deflect the assertion. Undermine without challenging.

[x] In fact, you're pretty sure she hasn't been settling.
-[x] Tell Homura about Madoka's prophetic dreams.

[x] Lead Homura to your theory that Madoka's been working side-by-side with Homura the entire time. She won't stop until Homura succeeds, just like Homura won't succeed until Madoka is safe.
 
DB_Explorer said:
Meaning that all the other loops had to end with Madoka making basically the same wish.
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Madoka's original wish was to save a cat. I really doubt Homura has allowed that to happen a hundred times.

Madoka's wish is probably different every time, because when Homura eliminates one reason for her to contract, Kyubey creates a new one.


DB_Explorer said:
Also reminds me of an idea I had (while drunk) where it starts off looking like adult!Madoka and Homura slice of life until Homura starts remembering being a magical girl and the loops because CLEARLY the initial set up is due to QB fucking about post series trying to figure out whats up with Homura. Oh and Sayaka also remembers since Sayaka is actually Madokami's troubleshooter and got sent in to see what was messing with the cycle and is wondering how when and why she is married to Kyouko.
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That's not quite the plot of the PMMM movie, but it's closer than you'd think.
 
Re-reading yet again the past update...

Madoka's Wish means that we can do this."

"How?" Homura whispers, her voice raw and agonized. "I don't deserv- I can't."
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How can Homura win, when she doesn't deserve it -because she hasn't won, can't win (it's impossible, that's what her experience tells her [fact])?


Homura feeling underserving of being happy plays a part, however big, but we're also being pitted against the Walpurgisnacht in Homura's mind, which, appropriately, is arbitrarily invincible.

We can't win.

We won't convince Homura. Not until Walpurgisnacht is a Seed in our pocket. Not even then, but long after.



What we can do is give Homura whatever she needs to keep going, keep trying, so we might in the future have that chance.

Reassurance. Belief. Hope. Homura's opening herself to us, not just as a way to find answer to her problems; she's also looking for emotional support. In lieu of magical answers to Homura's problems, this is what we can and must give her.

Reassurance. It's the most important factor in this conversation.


Hmmm... I'll consult with my pillow. See if I can think of something while catching zs.

... I really want to tell Homura we believe in her, and that we believe she deserves to win, and to be happy.

We've just told her Doka wouldn't be happy if Homu isn't. I'm not sure whether trying to hammer the point further would help. It might cause Homura to doubt herself more?
 
Onmur said:
How can Homura win, when she doesn't deserve it -because she hasn't won, can't win (it's impossible, that's what her experience tells her [fact])?
Homura feeling underserving of being happy plays a part, however big, but we're also being pitted against the Walpurgisnacht in Homura's mind, which, appropriately, is arbitrarily invincible. We can't win. We won't convince Homura. Not until Walpurgisnacht is a Seed in our pocket. Not even then, but long after.
What we can do is give Homura whatever she needs to keep going, keep trying, so we might in the future have that chance.
Reassurance. Belief. Hope. Homura's opening herself to us, not just as a way to find answer to her problems; she's also looking for emotional support. In lieu of magical answers to Homura's problems, this is what we can and must give her.

Reassurance. It's the most important factor in this conversation.


Hmmm... I'll consult with my pillow. See if I can think of something while catching zs.

... I really want to tell Homura we believe in her, and that we believe she deserves to win, and to be happy.

We've just told her Doka wouldn't be happy if Homu isn't. I'm not sure whether trying to hammer the point further would help. It might cause Homura to doubt herself more?
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I wish to strongly caution that it isn't first in order of execution, however!

First, we need a few ways to obtain an open channel to get the message in to her.

May I contribute?
We can try to use a challenge that is "incongruous." She says "I don't deserve," we ask "what about Sabrina? How does Sabrina deserve happiness?"

Or, we can be challenging, as in the attribution of what she said "I don't deserve.." We say "who told you that?" Or, "when was the first time someone else told you that?"

There are more branches to this type of conversation. Who wants to go down that tree?
 
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cmwatford said:
I wonder if we'll ever reach the point where Homu is comfortable with us calling her mom in private. :drevil:
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A while back, somebody pointed out that from Homura's perspective, Sabrina is constantly trying to make sure that she's eating right, sleeping enough, feeling okay, getting enough hugs and encouragement....

In Homura's mind, we're the mom. :p
 
The Narrator said:
A while back, somebody pointed out that from Homura's perspective, Sabrina is constantly trying to make sure that she's eating right, sleeping enough, feeling okay, getting enough hugs and encouragement....

In Homura's mind, we're the mom. :p
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If one goes by chronology, Homura is a stunted 24 year old. Sabrina... if we add our ages up, will we get to around 500? Sounds legit.
 
I like Kaizuki's vote, but I'm concerned that Homura might not be able to articulate how she feels without it doing more harm in the process. One of the emotional defense mechanisms Homura almost certainly has in place is that she's avoided really thinking about this stuff because of how much it hurts. But I can also understand why people might read Vebyast's vote as being too forceful. So I'm going to try to combine them.

[X] Tone: Caring, empathetic, supportive.
[X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
[X] Madoka wouldn't settle for a world where Homura didn't deserve happiness.
[X] In fact, you're pretty sure she hasn't been settling.
[X] Tell Homura about Madoka's dreams.
[X] Lead Homura to your theory that Madoka's been working side-by-side with Homura the entire time. She won't stop until Homura succeeds, just like Homura won't succeed until Madoka is safe.
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] Standing: Try to lead Homura with questions where possible. Continuous cleanse.
[X] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.
[X] Why does she think that?
-[X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
--[X] Await response, then break.

@Onmur @Aranfan @DB_Explorer minor adjustments good?
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This feels kinda iffy as it stands. It'd work great for some characters, but, speaking as someone with issues of expression and accuracy myself, Homura's poor ability to express herself has me more inclined to ask her if our reading is correct and, if so, either let her correct us and refine it or continue on, than ask her to say it herself. (Of course, my own experience is more being wrong, than hurt, but I think that kind of approach may be able to be retooled way to talk about things without her having to dig into the emotions too deep.)

Which ties into my next thought: I'd kinda like to see your end-goal vote and am curious how what your thoughts are on getting from here to there.

----------

On another note... Honestly, even with Firn's note that Homura doesn't really get cooperative action, a lot of Conjured Blade's expanded path still rings out to me as worth saying. Even if it doesn't really get through to Homura, laying out how she's responsible for what's been accomplished now, in concrete detail, might be something for her to chew on and analyze.
 
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