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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
and that does include Madowish talk (it's in the vote you voted for at the end, in case you didn't see it).
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Only if talking to Homura determined that her feelings of inadequacy weren't the issue, because in that case it would make it worse. And that was honestly just there as a redundancy, because Homura made it pretty clear what she was feeling when she said "you're doing better than I ever did" and broke down crying.

We were explicit that we did not want to bring up the wish if there was any chance that Homura was feeling... pretty much exactly what we'd correctly deduced she was feeling. And when we raised that concern about the other votes that wanted to talk about the wish, we got no response.




The Phoenixian said:
Likewise "My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem." contains a good fundamental point. (That we do not and cannot do this alone) But I think it's approached from the wrong perspective.

I also do like, the original "The only reason I had the gold to fund Sayaka's tutoring , host refugees in the first place was you." you had before, and the longer Oriko note. I just feel it might be better broken into a block instead of condensed.
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A problem I have with both of these is that they're just framing Homura's contributions in terms of how useful she's been to Sabrina, helping Sabrina save the day. Homura wished to be the hero, not the sidekick. We need to play up her achievements on their own merits, not just in terms of how helpful they've been to us. That's why I want to emphasize that everything has been a team effort.
 
Another idea for the Deserve angle if we feel like going the Sin Olympics route.

[]Homura you're talking to somebody who very nearly commited the kind of act that breaks utilitarian ethics. The kind of act that deserves a death sentence if anything ever does. The just world fallacy is just that. A fallacy. The only justice is what we make.
 
Conjured Blade said:
Another idea for the Deserve angle if we feel like going the Sin Olympics route.

[]Homura you're talking to somebody who very nearly commited the kind of act that breaks utilitarian ethics. The kind of act that deserves a death sentence if anything ever does. The just world fallacy is just that. A fallacy. The only justice is what we make.
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Um... if you are referring to Witching Kirika, we never actually intended to do it.
 
HeroCycle said:
"just" trying to support Homura is insufficient, if we don't do it with her problems in mind. Support will only be partial, and we won't help enough, if we can't get it to her past the wall of her symptoms.

All or Nothing', or 'Black and White' Thinking and Depression

The long-term costs of traumatic stress: intertwined physical and psychological consequences

https://nvf.org/effects-of-ptsd-in-veterans/

Regular comfort is only part of the picture.

Think more. Be able. Since we went down this rabbit hole, we are assuming the burden of therapy. Do it, by which I mean, learn how to do it.
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:cry: Who here thinks Homura is, or isn't doing polarized thinking?

:cry: Who thinks Homura has PTSD?

Does this affect how to help?

Going to bring back my vote next.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 15, 2018 at 10:12 PM, finished with 85 posts and 10 votes.
  • [x] Main goals, in no particular order:
    -[x] Encourage Homura to believe in her own value, and in a good future.
    -[x] Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
    -[x] Explain, as best and clearly as possible, everything Homura indicates she wants or needs to know.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext:
    -[x] Optimistic and certain this loop will succeed.
    -[x] Comforting and encouraging.
    --[x] Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
    [x] Reaffirm that Homura can do this and deserves a happy ending.
    [x] "I'm not succeeding. We're succeeding. Together. Everything we've done--it's been all of us."
    -[x] "We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because it knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this."
    -[x] If Homura is feeling that she is not fulfilling her wish, that she is useless because she is not able to be the one protecting Madoka.
    --[x] Remind her: Without her, it all would have been over in the first timeline. It's only because of her that we got this far.
    ---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    ---[x] Holding down the fort while Sabrina rushes off to deal with out-of-town crises
    ---[x] Timestop as an epic force multiplier, or letting us get there in the nick of time.
    ----[x] Tracking down Oriko
    ----[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    ----[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    -----[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
    ----[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    ---[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    --[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that Sabrina is just here to help her.
    --[x] And we--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.
    -[x] If the problem is Homura not liking herself; feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before; feeling that Sabrina is doing better with the same tools; possibly regards Sabrina emphasizing Homura's contributions as platitudes.
    --[x] Remind her that Sabrina is cheating:
    ---[x] Sabrina got to start with the knowledge that Homura had to learn the hard way over multiple loops, so she could make a wish that broke the system.
    ----[x] Griefbending: Power that specifically derails resource issues
    ----[x] Also, we had Homura as an ally. Don't let her sell herself short: we stand on the shoulders of giants.
    -----[x] Remind Homura of her contributions; connect this back to the above.
    [X] "Okay, let me back up. I didn't properly address your concerns before, so I'll do that first."
    [X] "Firstly, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would."
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "You know hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything. Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    -[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
    -[X] Relax. Comment:
    --[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
    --[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
    [X] O&K.
    -[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
    -[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
    [X] Everyone.
    -[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
    -[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
    [X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
    [X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
    -[X] Try using Control Magic...
    --[X] On Grief.
    --[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    [X] Try not to trigger her, must understand her pain right now, before sharing answers.
    -[X] Ask to do pain conversation first
    -[X] We ask questions to get her feelings visible, in a less challenging way.
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    -[X] If her pain is not covered in the topics of the vote, break to vote.
    [X] Caution her regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts. If she denies, break to vote.
    [X] Promise, and give honest answers.
    -[X] Slowly, and with context conversation, so she doesn't use the facts to hurt herself.
    -[X] Have her generate context examples, be careful not to lecture at this point. Understanding is what we want to see in her.
    -[X] Very small steps
    [X] When a trouble spot is sensed, break for vote.
    [x]Really? For being as much a cause of this fledgling shadow governments accomplishments as me, for enduring the much undeserved ravages of fate, I think you deserve no less. The only reason I had the gold to fund Sayaka's tutoring, host refugees in the first place was you. The reason I can perform operations outside Mitakihara without worrying about a sudden apocalypse? You. The reason I was able to get any use out of Oriko and Kirika in the first place instead of still fighting them or being forced to kill them? You. My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem.
    [X] Delay Update
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[X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
[X] Try not to trigger her, must understand her pain right now, before sharing answers.
-[X] Ask to do pain conversation first
-[X] We ask questions to get her feelings visible, in a less challenging way.
-[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
-[X] If her pain is not covered in the topics of the vote, break to vote.
[X] Caution her regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts. If she denies, break to vote.
[X] Promise, and give honest answers.
-[X] Slowly, and with context conversation, so she doesn't use the facts to hurt herself.
-[X] Have her generate context examples, be careful not to lecture at this point. Understanding is what we want to see in her.
-[X] Very small steps
[X] When a trouble spot is sensed, break for vote.


Homura is already proven to adapt and survive under the worst conditions, but we need to give her a moment to catch up. It doesn't work at our speeds, and she's already hurt. Homura has a variety of stressors, so she's having a hard time identifying which emergency she's responding to anymore. Homura is drowning. So my main priority is to vastly slow down the dialog pace IC, and get her to swim to the surface. Second, get her to acknowledge that she's having difficulty functioning, due to injury. Then, get her to stop trying to measure her performance, or her worth. Not the time for that. I think this set of discussions will help her out.

I propose being in full support and treatment mode. Homura is pretty much breaking down IMHO, though she isn't out of self control yet. We need to put our full empathy forward, and use precautions to keep conversation happening. I think we are better off passing those instruction literally in this vote. Sabrina needs to learn this stuff. Feel free to improve upon / debate what is in here. Under 200 word vote, substantial notes in sectioned blocks.

Top level goals:
Save
Grant Wishes
Heal
Prepare for future (potentialbomb)
Reduce despair
Build friendship and love
Build trust


Proximate goals:
Do Not Grief Spiral
Do Not reject Wish
Do Not Potentialbomb
Do Not reduce Agency
Think and converse slowly
Avoid / mitigate Trigger topics when possible
Draw out enough meaning to proceed clearly
Make PTSD accommodations.
Be transparent about the help we offer
Be 100% truthful, use caution if needed
Give safety
Let her in, mirror her too. Use empathy
Repeat parts of conversation is awareness is uncertain

Assume:
Homura is 'drowning.' Cannot identify all aspects of her negative feelings.
Homura can adapt to her problem, given help / time.
PTSD is active
Possible crisis


HeroCycle said:
#####


Everything works, because this is how Homura made it to be. This world is the sum of her labors, somehow. Homura wished to be the one to protect Madoka this time. She is, and she has been. It feels different than that for two reasons.

Kyuubey cheats. He lets you take your Wish, but without any training. Is it surprising that you needed to practice? The thing you want to do is "fight an alien occupation." Alone. Homura has always been isolated, being in a group again is upsetting.

Does she know why she feels so much pain right now? It is an injury to her emotions. It is called PTSD, and she got it because aliens made her into a soldier at the age of thirten.
Think of PTSD like it is Grief. You have trouble thinking when it hurts. We need to talk slowly, so Homura has time to think. We can also discuss layman's view of treatment.

#####

Sabrina will answer as much as she knows, but Sabrina doesn't know everything. Homura gets results. Sabrina gets results. Ours are mostly cheating. Cheating won't solve everything, determination does.
Sabrina is not a leader, she's put out in front where you want her. Sabrina is not even a useful shield. Sabrina has been attracting attention - she is your diversion. Because there is something Sabrina doesn't do well. Protect Madoka. What is Sabrina? A literal battery for Magical Girls. Sabrina needs saving all the time, she's just a big rookie. She takes big risks, where the protector can't. Sabrina trips traps. Sabrina breaks up the indirect attacks. Sabrina hugs strangers. You have stopped Kyuubey directly. Your wish requires freedom of action. Without a team, you could never fully block Kyuubey. With Mami, Sabrina, now Sayaka, and everyone, you maybe have a chance.

#####

Is Sabrina hearing a bit that Homura would be happier if she felt like the only hero? Madoka's wish from last loop is a form of conversation between Homura and her. Madoka wants to be the hero too. The relationship is developing.

If what we are aiming at is true, the best way to respond is to re-frame the prospect of a Madowish, helping her grasp its' positive emotional context. Promise her the truth in any information we have, right now if she wants. We must stand on this. But we must be slow and gentle as we do it.

We all agree that Madoka must not give up her humanity. Grant her wish that she asked for, right now, to remove to such possibility?

That way, she can't make a bad wish. Give the girl you love the thing she so desperately wants. That is, "to fix everything." It's a much, much bigger task than your Wish. Don't be afraid to spiral in towards her, you pointed your wish at her, now she is putting her wish around you. A few details will work themselves out, like Sabrina joining you all from... wherever it was she existed three weeks ago. It's a step up for Sabrina, it has to be, Madoka is a kind person. Sabrina has to be here, to give you more power, to grant both wishes.

How does your loop work? Your wish sends you back in time to re-do your first meeting by yourself?
WRONG. You Wished for her to meet you. You bent the world to do it, and it is working. You go back, with accumulated memories and items. Everyone else changes a bit sometimes. Except you, who are different every time, and Madoka, who is always herself. Madoka goes back in time too, unconscious and in sync.

You two are connected. It's Yin and Yang. Is this O.K. with you? It seems like you wanted that to happen? The only complication is The System.

The reason everything is working now isn't Sabrina, nor Madoka. It is that you didn't give up, and became more powerful than the Incubators. Not 'her' alone, both of you. Over the ten years that you two have been looping, things have been getting better. You have accumulated skills and knowledge, mental strength and education. Invisibly, Madoka is growing as well. Her Wish changes, you can see that. You two have to work together, it is your Wish. You did keep her from being tricked. Her Wish now includes a way for you to be together at last. When you both accept one another, this all happens. Sabrina happens.

Focus on the fact that Homura (active partner) and Madoka (passive partner) are in a long climb to escape the system. After improving as a pair for this long, the solution has been found. The way Homura wins, is by capitalizing on all that she has done, and by letting her partner help her. Since Madoka must not over- wish again, she made Sabrina to do that for her.

Homura is only one person. Her time is finite. Sabrina is only one person, her time is much more finite. (Timestop is such bullshit.) The Incubators will be pushed back if we dare to use our emotions to connect everyone. People work together. Friends work together. You work together with the one you love.
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Conjured Blade said:
@The Narrator that or we need to convince her that we are one being, a Leviathan, the accomplishments of one are the accomplishments of all because states are made of people
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I'm not sure we want to try to debate Hobbes with a crying teenager. "The power of teamwork" is an easier way to put it that also fits into a context that she's familiar with, since magical girl shows generally play heavily into the concept.

HeroCycle said:
[X] Caution her regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts. If she denies, break to vote.
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I'm also not sure if she'll be willing to accept our amateur diagnosis of her psychological issues right now, or that it's something that we're qualified to try to treat. That seems like something that'll take years.
 
I'm so fucking frustrated. Why do I even bother?

This last vote was useless. It was so awkward that it failed from the very premise. It did not even attempt to address any of Homura's issues, and it showed no understanding of said issues.

What the hell are you people doing?

What made you look at my vote and say, "No, let's just sit her down and talk about random things and thoughts that have nothing to do with her worries or issues. THAT will work!"

I'm just going to (mostly, with a couple of edits) repost my vote from the last round and hope that some people actually learn from their mistakes. And yes, that sounds arrogant of me, but I've tried so many times to convince people nicely, with long, well-reasoned arguments, only for them to be ignored, and I just can't be bothered to repeat myself endlessly.

Like, @Vebyast : Your sole criticism for my vote last time was that "it doesn't go deep enough". Then what the everloving hell was last post's vote, then? That was as shallow as it gets--like we pretended she didn't even have any issues at all. My vote cuts right to the heart of every one of her issues in this matter. I can't really make it more direct or "deep" than this.

Other than that? It was largely ignored by all but a few people, as best I can tell when looking back at it.

So, I'll try pinging everyone, so they don't have an excuse anymore. Because, guys? YOU ARE FUCKING THIS UP. BADLY. How about trying it my way, for once?

@Phigment , @Redshirt Army , @Raiseth , @CornyBones , @HeroCycle , @Onmur , @universalperson , @redzonejoe , @The Phoenixian , @Conjured Blade , @Torgamous , @Jonen C , @Marcus.D.Basterd , @mCooperative , @Kaizuki, @The Narrator

And the people who did vote for it, I call for your help once more:
@Aranfan , @Matou Sutegobana , @ranmatoushin

Onmur, your current vote has issues. Namely, it mistakes intentions with effective actions. You can want to reassure Homura and make sure she knows we have faith in her, but saying such won't actually reassure her or make her feel better about herself. You're not addressing any of her issues. Bringing up Feathers like that won't help. You're not actually addressing any of her issues, and it shows in how last post played out--Sabrina just meandering around various topics, not addressing any of Homura's issues in any way, and she's left feeling even worse because it seems to her like we just don't even begin to understand her concerns/fears/issues.

[X] "Okay, let me back up. I didn't properly address your concerns before, so I'll do that first."
[X] "Firstly, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would."
[X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
[X] "You know hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything. Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
[X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."

We'll go into "how you can be happy" after this. Which we wouldn't have to do in the first place, if people had just listened the first time around.
 
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First instinct - If you, who've spent who knows how many loops, don't deserve a happy ending then few on this earth do. You have never sat idle - you've always improved yourself as you strived to your goal. You have no idea how important your skill, your knowledge is. Every time something happens my first question is - Is Homura able to help?

Not Sayaka, not even Mami - but you.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
What made you look at my vote and say, "No, let's just sit her down and talk about random things and thoughts that have nothing to do with her worries or issues. THAT will work!"
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Is that what you see here?

"Madoka's wish is still in effect" is a highly valid explanation for everything that is going on, and your vote here is summarily ignoring the reality that Homura is now in a different place than she was last post.

You seem to think that we were meandering, that we hit random points -- I think you didn't bother to follow the discussion or examine in detail what happened.

Try again.
 
@SaltyWaffles

Worth incorporating, at least somewhat. It definitely sugarcoats the "Even if this was a competition, there is no shame in loss because the game was rigged from the start angle." I thought of a while ago.

Switching to

[x]SaltyWaffles

at least for the moment.
 
Kaizuki said:
Is that what you see here?

"Madoka's wish is still in effect" is a highly valid explanation for everything that is going on, and your vote here is summarily ignoring the reality that Homura is now in a different place than she was last post.

You seem to think that we were meandering, that we hit random points -- I think you didn't bother to follow the discussion or examine in detail what happened.

Try again.
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We basically ignored all of the issues she had when bringing us into the timestop in the first place. And, in the midst of our meandering from topic to topic, we brought up another one of her issues that was entirely separate from the ones she had when she brought us into this timestop.

Is she in a different place? Not at all. Not even slightly. We just changed the topic to something else that she has issues with after mucking about on the first set of issues and achieving nothing, and you're mistaking that for progress.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
You're not addressing any of her issues.
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You're taking her saying that she doesn't deserve to be happy and brushing past it to better recycle your last vote.
Conjured Blade said:
Does anybody ever? Deserve or not, I don't care,
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No. What she'll take from that is that we agree she doesn't deserve happiness, which is bullshit. What she doesn't deserve is all the shit that's been piled on her. She deserves to be as happy as she was in the first loop.

Come to think of it,

[] That's bullshit. What she doesn't deserve is all the shit that's been piled on her. She deserves to be as happy as she was in the first loop.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
[X] "Okay, let me back up. I didn't properly address your concerns before, so I'll do that first."
[X] "Firstly, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would."
[X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
[X] "You know hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything. Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
[X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
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I'll say the same thing that I said last time: While I understand that you're trying to tell Homura that it's not a failing of hers because the situation was unfair, I'm concerned that focusing too much on Sabrina's advantages and not enough on Homura's qualities will just make her feel even more inadequate.


Kaizuki said:
"Madoka's wish is still in effect" is a highly valid explanation for everything that is going on,
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It's also the explanation that will specifically exacerbate her self-worth issues. If we're trying to make Homura feel better, then reminding her of Madoka's wish is the worst thing we could possibly do.
 
...I actually don't think the last vote turned out that bad?

Honestly, there's no way I'd expect this to be resolved in a single vote. Just keep going guys.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts.
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*Sound of a devil forming in the background* I think that that is a bad thing to say...


Torgamous said:
No. What she'll take from that is that we agree she doesn't deserve happiness, which is bullshit. What she doesn't deserve is all the shit that's been piled on her. She deserves to be as happy as she was in the first loop.
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No one deserves anything; people "deserving" things is either a excuse to use a unquestioned ethics system to harm someone or for someone to claim that they are entitled to something. I would say that you only get what you earn, either by making it happen to you or my comming to a agreement with someone who will follow through, but in this case we want her to be happy and there is not a force in this universe, or any other, that we will alow to stop us.
 
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Marcus.D.Basterd said:
*Sound of a devil forming in the background* I think that that is a bad thing to say...
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That's the other issue I have with Salty's vote: that last line comes way too close to the potentialbomb for comfort.

Marcus.D.Basterd said:
No one deserves anything; people "deserving" things is either a excuse to use a unquestioned ethics system to harm someone or for someone to claim that they are entitled to something.
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Reminder that Homura was raised Catholic, so she probably doesn't think of things that way.
 
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