Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Shadowhisker on Apr 12, 2018 at 4:29 PM, finished with 136201 posts and 28 votes.
  • [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    [X] Ask Homura to talk to you. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate you. Not when she needs a friend.
    -[X] Cleanse.
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [x] (If in the course of the conversation, bolstering Homura's sense of self-worth doesn't seem to be the issue at hand after all, break to voting.)
    [x] (In the following, the use of first-person plural does not refer to Sabrina as usual, but to Sabrina and Homura and everyone as a group.)
    [x] It's working for us. We did this together.
    [x] Emphasize that we've accomplished as much as we have by being a team.
    [x] Remind Homura of her contributions that made it possible for us to get this far.
    -[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    -[x] Keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    -[x] Tracking down Oriko in timestop.
    -[x] Letting us get to Sayaka in time to save her from the witch.
    -[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    -[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    [x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    [x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
    [x] Provide much comfort and reassurance.
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
Click to expand...
 
Question- Something I've just thought of that I want some input on:

We seem to be saying, that ascribing some of the fortunate or new things this loop, about people's behaviour and coincidences, to Madoka's wish, is reinforcing to Homura that if we fail here, this is the only shot we'll get. That if we ascribe these things to Madoka's wish, the only truth is that we must admit to ourself that this is the last chance. But the exact phrasing of Madoka's wish was "I Wish that everything could be fixed!" That seems to me like it may imply a change of state- a change of the state of nature of the timecycles, the universes, and their properties themselves, such that [everything] is now forcibly assigned the quality [fixable], so to speak. (Funny, given the quest tagline of breaking the system, huh?)

Why are we so sure that Madoka's wish only reaches as far as Sabrina's existence, and the serendipitous nature of events this loop?


Note that this is isn't a question trying to delve into "we toast have more loops to work with" or anything like that. Because of course, as a Quest, it's as likely as it's not that we don't, and we shouldn't plan for loss this time 'round, obviously. Just- we lean a lot of arguments on the metaphysical state of the universe. This seems like a somewhat thematically important one.


Also: Trying to see if I can piece together a good frankenvote.
 
Yes, obviously Madoka's Wish would extend past this loop.

The problem is that Feathers almost certainly isn't going to let Homura loop again.

Plus the part where Homura probably couldn't take another loop, even if we looped with her.
 
Vebyast said:
Yes, obviously Madoka's Wish would extend past this loop.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It might just be me, but this has absolutely not been clear from any of the preceding discussion.

Vebyast said:
The problem is that Feathers almost certainly isn't going to let Homura loop again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We have very little that isn't complete speculation about what even Feathers is, and I feel like this is not a conclusion I, personally at least, feel safe coming to. For that matter, I'm not sure how material it is to the issue of "Homura in another loop would never again be able to do this well". Yes, okay, Feather might not let her loop again. Homura could also die and not be able to loop again. At this level of intel, the two threats are more or less the same. Homura does not expect to die, by which I mean she's clearly resolved to shoot death in the face with a shotgun if it comes calling; we do not expect to let Feathers win if indeed Feathers is truly our adversary. Homura does however think the idea of looping again is a possibility. That's what I feel like a number of us think it might be a good idea to address.

Vebyast said:
Plus the part where Homura probably couldn't take another loop, even if we looped with her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That is a valid interpretation of Homura at present, however I still feel that it is not material to the fact that a number of people seem to want to address Homura's feelings about the idea that "Homura in another loop would never again be able to do this well".


Edit: Even if Homura herself believes or knows she couldn't take another loop, or even if she believes wholeheartedly that we will succeed and she will never need to loop again- that doesn't change the fact that she's probably blaming herself for not succeeding in loops before now. Addressing the idea that she could succeed with the tools she has now if she had to loop again, goes hand in hand with addressing the idea that it's not her fault she hasn't succeeded up until now because she lacked those tools.
 
Last edited:
mCooperative said:
that doesn't change the fact that she's probably blaming herself for not succeeding in loops before now. Addressing the idea that she could succeed with the tools she has now if she had to loop again, goes hand in hand with addressing the idea that it's not her fault she hasn't succeeded up until now because she lacked those tools.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Unfortunately, Homura has had the tools she needed all along. Telling her that will just make her blame herself harder. She needs something new to give her a reason to think that things can change. Good thing we have the Madowish to point at!
 
Vebyast said:
Unfortunately, Homura has had the tools she needed all along.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is a point where I have some disagreement, and it seems that perhaps others may as well.

That said, that is a point that enters directly into the topic I have banned myself from starting into, and I believe others can argue the point better than I can, if they so choose or have not done so already.
 
The simplest way of dealing with Homura's crisis of faith is to convince her that she herself is responsible for Sabrina's success. This does require talking about Madoka's wish, but very carefully - too much emphasis on Madoka's involvement runs into other issues. Damn, this is hard.
 
Last edited:
Before I say anything, the new vote as written at the bottom of this post reads like this:

[] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[] And to sit down.
-[] And to cleanse.

[] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
-[] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
-[] Break after her full response.

Vebyast said:
We were meant to do something right here. Otherwise Firn wouldn't have broken for a vote. Homura just told us what her problem was. We have listened. If we let her keep going, we're not going to be listening, we're not going to be letting her share, we're going to be letting her spiral. This is a disastrous time to not take action.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think a couple of things need clarity on my end, now that I'm actually awake -- it took an hour twenty in parallel computing to achieve that state... yeah.

I'm not interested in letting Homura "keep going." I'm interested in holding her hand into getting her to hold a real conversation about her issues with us. This isn't just for our sake but for hers as well. I'm going to need to take a minor segue to cover that for everyone, though.

Over the time I've spent in PMAS one thing has become quite clear to me and that is that, rather uniquely, PMAS responds extremely well to interacting with the characters through a model in which they are actual people. I have not yet observed a single occurrence where doing that has failed.

And really, I think kind of the reason for that is that that model necessarily imposes on the questers the recognition that the characters can have insights and knowledge that the questers don't.

We have some pretty solid theories about Homura, and we know a lot about her based on canon. We also know that we're missing potentially a bunch of stuff -- people who have been around a while will recall the debacle where we voted to potentialbomb Homura, and Firnagzen responded to that with a warning to not do that because it wouldn't quite bad end the quest. We don't know why that would have had that result and we don't have any substantial theories on it, either, beyond it probably having something to do with the mix of spooky stuff in the quest -- feathers, Madoka not making the wish that turned her into Madokami in canon despite last timeline sounding like canon's final timeline, that sort of stuff.

We also know that one of the primary themes in PMMM itself is how misunderstandings, assumptions, and generally a failure to just talk about issues ends up making absolutely everything go wrong. Everyone in PMMM thinks they know everything, from Madokami thinking she knows what's good for Homura to Sayaka thinking Kyouko is just evil. And -- well, I think Aura put it best, Madoka sinned thrice against Homura and from that was born the devil. Madoka never wanted to do that. She just thought she knew that what she was doing would help. But instead, in timeline after timeline, Homura was left screaming powerlessly at her, too far away to be heard, while she made another wish.

At this point I think that probably everyone has decided that I'm insinuating that the contents of Vebyast's vote are bad for falling into a thematic trap. I kind of do think that. But that's not what I'm here to argue.

The point I want to make isn't merely that assuming we know everything we need to know in order to fix/attack Homura's deep-seated issues is a bad idea. The point I want to make is that in responding to a distraught girl by picking up the slightest fragments of her half-formed sentences, piecing them together, deciding on a meaning carried by them, then taking that meaning and running with it for a hundred fifty word vote, without involving her in the process, without comforting her and helping her back to a state where she isn't basically crying on our shoulder, and doing it all in a manner that is centered around towing her through a series of arguments that, we think, lead to solving one of her deep-seated issues by laying out platforms of evidence and citing things and, and treating her as an audience instead of a person, a problem with complexities instead of a person with emotions, an audience instead of a partner who might have insights and knowledge that we're unaware of --

That is off-theme. It's worse than off-theme, it's... it's on-theme for walking into one of the setting's primary morals! It's on-theme for one of the themes that leads to disaster.

That is my core problem with Vebyast's vote here. That it's the actual embodiment of the biggest way in which we tend to handle things wrongly in this quest.

I think there's been some pushback against me raising this objection. It's mostly been in the form of "we need to say these things right now because we can't afford for Homura to draw her own conclusions," "we need to be proactive, not reactive," and "she already told us what we need to know in order to formulate a reply."

In order from last to first:

The idea that "she already told us what we need to know in order to formulate a reply" may or may not be accurate, but assuming that it is accurate it's still an argument that's got more problems to it than swiss cheese has holes, because the problem is -- is that whole thing I wrote up above right here, not whether or not the interpretation people are running with is correct.

The only response I have to "we need to be proactive, not reactive," is that whoever brought that up has committed a domain/range inaccuracy. I... honestly I can barely argue against it because it's such an off-point assertion for the topic matter, but the basic thing I'll say is that being reactive would be letting her both draw conclusions and run off while being proactive would be, like... pushing her away from bad conclusions, either before or after she's reached them -- the former is proactivity against letting her reach them, the latter is proactivity against letting her act on them... just, dude.

Finally, the bit about "we need to say these things right now because we can't afford for Homura to draw her own conclusions." This is sometimes true but not the case here. I refer absolutely everyone to circa the final big round with Oriko, as well as to the debacle where we voted to potentialbomb Homura. There are warning signs when we're verging on something that would really fuck things over in some manner and need to do something about it -- these can also be seen in the talks with Akiko, for instance. Those are completely and totally absent here. The idea that we can't take a couple minutes here to get her to truly be a conversation partner for this instead of a distraught girl is nonsense, and it will mean that things will go better.

So, I do need to alter the vote I had to properly reflect everything I've just said... And I also want to note one last... god this needs a bigger font.

Everything in Vebyast's vote, content-wise, is essentially correct based on what we know. It's the blind execution that makes it undesirable.

Instead of "say all the things", we want to approach this conversation as a conversation. The event chain I'm envisioning goes something like this: we say a bunch of shit, we let Homura ask questions, comment, and/or draw conclusions, if we don't like where her conclusions are going we step back in quickly. Then we say a bunch more shit as responses. And by doing that, we gradually execute all the stuff in Vebyast's vote in a manner that lets us stop if we need to... that allows us a great deal more precision and is so, so much more human.

[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[X] And to sit down.
-[X] And to cleanse.

[X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
-[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
-[X] Break after her full response.

... And then probably start executing parts of the Vebyast vote subsequently.
 
Last edited:
Gah.

I agree with both Kaizuki and Vebyast here. Or, at least, their points resonate with me, even if I really don't understand them (and I really don't understand this sort of Social in general).

Right now, though, Kaizuki is swaying me a tad bit more. Sorry, Veb.

[X] Kaizuki
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[X] And to sit down.
-[X] And to cleanse.

[X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
-[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
-[X] Break after her full response.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*sigh*

I know what you're trying to get at, Kai, but right now it just feels like you're stalling so you don't have to deal with the fact that you can't write a vote that communicates what needs to be communicated more effectively than I've voted.

I don't want to have to fight this vote again. I've been saying that I don't want to let Homura have a chance to defend herself because I also don't want to have to fight over this vote a second time or a third time or a fourth time. I don't want to let the thread back out. And fuck you for guaranteeing that I have to go through this shit again.

I'm not going to say that your vote is trash. I think that you have a point about communication being a thing. But you know what? Firnagzen just gave us a mini-update where Homura shares as much as she can before breaking down in front of us. We already deployed the hugs. We already comforted her as much as we could. We broke for a vote because we were supposed to do something here. Yes, communication is a thing, but communication doesn't just mean waving "continue" whenever someone is talking. Communication is a two-way street, and we broke for a vote right here because Homura ran out of gas. It's our turn.

That said?

@Firnagzen: So I don't have to fucking fight this vote a second fucking time PLEASE FOR FUCK'S SAKE: If we prepend something like "Ask Homura if she wants help", can you tell us up front if Homura will want help, so we can actually fucking do something instead of fighting over whether to ask if we can do something before doing it?
 
Gragh!

You know what, if I keep doing this, I'll probably just keep ping ponging between votes.

So until I get my head straight:

[X] Null
 
Hey. So I'm trying to work out some sorta vote, because it looks like we're coming at this from two directions, possibly mutually exclusive? But maybe not? How's this, is this sorta what some of us are getting at? This is as best as I can figure where half us are trying to go. Just... trying to write out my thoughts. Not... not meaning to push on phrasing or anything.

So, this was interrupted by Kaizuki posting a good summation of the state of affairs, and I no longer feel the need to attempt to frankenvote, because it looks like that's a good direction. Also, it looks like we're hitting a breaking point all on our own that might want QM addressing- or something- before moving any further into this if even it's needed to do so. Uh. Yeah. Um, that said, I guess I still want to post this thinger for, like, posterity? I dunno, I spent time on it, it might be worth something, or I might want to come back to it and mull over wtf I was thinking around this time of the thread. Particularly every time we need to come to conclusions about how to address the Homura concerns, I guess. So.

Firnagzen said:
"We have allies," Homura whispers with a convulsive swallow. "It's early, but we have allies. They know about Walpurgisnacht."

"Yeah," you say, grinning at Homura.

"I've- this never worked," she whispers, and there's stark, raw pain in her voice, her shoulders hunched against a blow she's endured over and over and over again. "It never worked before."

"I won't let Oriko interfere-"

"It doesn't have to be her," Homura whispers, shaking her head. "It- all this works. For you."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[] Permanent: Allow Homura to interject or express her responses to what we're saying whenever it looks like she has something to say.

[] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited, or to address any new point Homura brings up if the present vote does not contain content to specifically address it. Particularly, if it seems that Homura is becoming upset with the idea that Madoka's wish is saving her, and that she'll never be anything but a burden who cannot pay that grace back.

It's not just me. Homura, it's never been just me. Everything I've accomplished has been- it's been everyone. It's been- I've been handed so much, Homura. Look- can we sit down? And- would it be alright if I hug you again? **if yes, hug teh homu**

**quiet, gentle, explaining, reflecting, not lecturing** It's been working for me because I've been given a literal guidebook, Homura. Not just- not just what people could do, or who they could be. You've got that. I was given narrative framing. Not just events, or information- I was given the exact information on which everything rests, and the certainty that it's the information that matters. The information that could change things, and a decent suggestion on where to apply it. **offer to her:** That's something you've had to figure out on your own, yeah?

**gentle levity, sincerity** And I have you. I get to start with all this information, plus an Akemi Homura. **more serious** Don't sell yourself short. Everything I've done- I've said it before, but I stand on the shoulders of giants. You've done so much of the groundwork- my information, my knowledge, it all comes from what you've done. And in this loop alone- none of this would have worked without you. All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time- tracking down Oriko- letting us get to Sayaka in time to save her from the witch- watching over her when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko. Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening. And it's been you, always, keeping Madoka safe this whole time. On the large scale and the small- the only reason any of this is possible is because of your strength, because you've fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.*

And- I- if that's not enough for you, I- **hesitation** Homura I'm just going to say it, we've both got a pretty good idea where I come from. Why I'm here. **gently** Madoka's wish last loop was "I Wish that everything could be fixed", right? And... it's pretty likely I'm a result of that. Specially equipped to work on the fixing.

A result of that, Homura. But... I don't think it's just me. Homura, I have knowledge of things that never were but could have been. You know that. Some... some of that knowledge gives me more than just information about people, about events. I- I'm pretty sure that Madoka's wish changed something about- about how fixable everything is. There are things that- that are lining up perfectly, this loop. Coincidences, people, changes...

(this would have extended further into contemplating how to address and bring up the implications of Madoka's wish and how it's given us this chance to fix things more than they could be fixed previously, and how that may be a persistent change, and maybe touching on changes a level above that about authorial handover, but Kaizuki's post intercepted me, and I don't feel the need to continue in this exploration space much more at the moment.)

Two roads diverged in this white forest
And sorry we could not travel both
And be one 'Brina, long we debated
And looked down one as far as we could
Until it bowed beneath what Firn wrote.
 
Last edited:
Vebyast said:
I don't want to have to fight this vote again. I've been saying that I don't want to let Homura have a chance to defend herself because I also don't want to have to fight over this vote a second time or a third time or a fourth time. I don't want to let the thread back out. And fuck you for guaranteeing that I have to go through this shit again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Quite frankly I will happily fight it for you, and it won't be difficult. If Homura responds to what I have written by saying nothing it will be tacitly asking the question you are responding to -- then what are we going to do? Not answer a question from Homura? Like hell. The point here is to get her engaged by having her at least agree that she is asking a question.

Vebyast said:
I know what you're trying to get at, Kai, but right now it just feels like you're stalling so you don't have to deal with the fact that you can't write a vote that communicates what needs to be communicated more effectively than I've voted.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I will encourage you to rephrase this because it is dismissive of what I consider to be frankly the most important thing in this entire quest. I did not write that essay because I "can't deal." I wrote that essay because I was finally able to put together what it was I didn't like about your vote, and it took the better part of two hours to do it.

Vebyast said:
I'm not going to say that your vote is trash. I think that you have a point about communication being a thing. But you know what? Firnagzen just gave us a mini-update where Homura shares as much as she can before breaking down in front of us. We already deployed the hugs. We already comforted her as much as we could. We broke for a vote because we were supposed to do something here. Yes, communication is a thing, but communication doesn't just mean waving "continue" whenever someone is talking. Communication is a two-way street, and we broke for a vote right here because Homura ran out of gas. It's our turn.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, she's still distraught and discomposed, so obviously no we haven't. We broke for a vote because continuing the vote that was given to Firn would have been nonsensical and counter to the text of the vote, not because of some special truth that we "were supposed to do something."

Vebyast said:
@Firnagzen: So I don't have to fucking fight this vote a second fucking time PLEASE FOR FUCK'S SAKE: If we prepend something like "Ask Homura if she wants help", can you tell us up front if Homura will want help, so we can actually fucking do something instead of fighting over whether to ask if we can do something before doing it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Did you even read what I wrote? This isn't about what her response is to whether or not she wants help, Vebyast -- she needs help, that much is quite obvious.
 
Kaizuki said:
The idea that "she already told us what we need to know in order to formulate a reply" may or may not be accurate, but assuming that it is accurate it's still an argument that's got more problems to it than swiss cheese has holes, because the problem is -- is that whole thing I wrote up above right here, not whether or not the interpretation people are running with is correct.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We could have written the vote I just wrote the moment Homura told us what Madoka's Wish was last loop.
Kaizuki said:
And by doing that, we gradually execute all the stuff in Vebyast's vote in a manner that lets us stop if we need to... that allows us a great deal more precision and is so, so much more human.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's why I have "Goals for the conversation" up at the top of the vote. Because I fundamentally do not trust the thread to execute on this. I expect Homura to say something that makes the thread completely flip out and leave Homura with "Madoka fixed everything" without following through to tell her that that it also guarantees that Homura will be the one to protect Madoka. I expect the thread to lose interest halfway through. I expect that giving her time to think about things before we proceed will land us exactly where it did when we tried it with Hijiri.

Your point would be good if we had perfect cognition. But, unfortunately, it's the fucking thread.

So no. I reject your premise. You want to treat Homura like a human being? Summarize the entire point in a single vote and don't fucking get distracted. Actually commit to helping her. Instead of this bullshit "We'll just keep the conversation on course, it'll be easy".
 
Last edited:
Vebyast said:
*sigh*

I know what you're trying to get at, Kai, but right now it just feels like you're stalling so you don't have to deal with the fact that you can't write a vote that communicates what needs to be communicated more effectively than I've voted.

I don't want to have to fight this vote again. I've been saying that I don't want to let Homura have a chance to defend herself because I also don't want to have to fight over this vote a second time or a third time or a fourth time. I don't want to let the thread back out. And fuck you for guaranteeing that I have to go through this shit again.

I'm not going to say that your vote is trash. I think that you have a point about communication being a thing. But you know what? Firnagzen just gave us a mini-update where Homura shares as much as she can before breaking down in front of us. We already deployed the hugs. We already comforted her as much as we could. We broke for a vote because we were supposed to do something here. Yes, communication is a thing, but communication doesn't just mean waving "continue" whenever someone is talking. Communication is a two-way street, and we broke for a vote right here because Homura ran out of gas. It's our turn.

That said?

@Firnagzen: So I don't have to fucking fight this vote a second fucking time PLEASE FOR FUCK'S SAKE: If we prepend something like "Ask Homura if she wants help", can you tell us up front if Homura will want help, so we can actually fucking do something instead of fighting over whether to ask if we can do something before doing it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Kaizuki said:
Quite frankly I will happily fight it for you, and it won't be difficult. If Homura responds to what I have written by saying nothing it will be tacitly asking the question you are responding to -- then what are we going to do? Not answer a question from Homura? Like hell. The point here is to get her engaged by having her at least agree that she is asking a question.



I will encourage you to rephrase this because it is dismissive of what I consider to be frankly the most important thing in this entire quest. I did not write that essay because I "can't deal." I wrote that essay because I was finally able to put together what it was I didn't like about your vote, and it took the better part of two hours to do it.



Well, she's still distraught and discomposed, so obviously no we haven't. We broke for a vote because continuing the vote that was given to Firn would have been nonsensical and counter to the text of the vote, not because of some special truth that we "were supposed to do something."



Did you even read what I wrote? This isn't about what her response is to whether or not she wants help, Vebyast -- she needs help, that much is quite obvious.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It occurs to me that I can do better than promises.

[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[X] And to sit down.
-[X] And to cleanse.

[X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
-[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
-[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
--[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
--[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
--[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
 
Last edited:
Kaizuki said:
Did you even read what I wrote? This isn't about what her response is to whether or not she wants help, Vebyast -- she needs help, that much is quite obvious.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How do you expect her to respond? She's already done. She's gone as far as she can. She's already set us a direction and asked us for help. What more do you want?
 
Staff Notice: Rule 3 & 4
Kaizuki said:
--[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ask yourself what would happen if the next update left the thread unable to handle a coherent response. Pretend that the next person to win the vote is Donald Fucking Trump. Pretend that the winning vote immediately following yours is written by a chimpanzee on PCP. Assume that the next winning vote is written by Kyubey himself. Then ask yourself if that's a good line to end on.

You need to include the point about Madoka's Wish also helping Homura. If you leave it half-finished you will destroy Homura, and you need to be ready for anything you haven't said yet to remain unsaid.

I appreciate the thought, but I'd be a lot happier without the fail-deadly vote.
 
Last edited:
Vebyast said:
Your point would be good if we had perfect cognition. But, unfortunately, it's the fucking thread.

So no. I reject your premise. You want to treat Homura like a human being? Summarize the entire point in a single vote and don't fucking get distracted. Actually commit to helping her. Instead of this bullshit "We'll just keep the conversation on course, it'll be easy".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[] Hold a serious conversation with Homura about the issues she expressed in the last post, doing everything you can to keep her actively involved in it. Aim to allay any fears she may have, explain as best you can anything she doesn't understand, and generally just help the poor girl not end up feeling like she's trash. Don't drop the potentialbomb.

I can describe in <150 words what we should be doing here, with a couple more lines than that. I don't think anyone will accept it, I think the rejection will read "not safe / detailed."

Vebyast said:
How do you expect her to respond? She's already done. She's gone as far as she can. She's already set us a direction and asked us for help. What more do you want?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I will repeat myself:

Kaizuki said:
Did you even read what I wrote? This isn't about what her response is to whether or not she wants help, Vebyast -- she needs help, that much is quite obvious.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Vebyast said:
Ask yourself what would happen if the next update left the thread unable to handle a coherent response. Pretend that the next person to win the vote is Donald Fucking Trump. Pretend that the winning vote immediately following yours is written by a chimpanzee on PCP. Assume that the next winning vote is written by Kyubey himself. Then ask yourself if that's a good line to end on.

You need to include the point about Madoka's Wish also helping Homura. If you leave it half-finished you will destroy Homura, and you need to be ready for anything you haven't said yet to remain unsaid.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Then give me a line that works that way, because this stuff?

Vebyast said:
[x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
-[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is not going to achieve that.

Also if Trump won the next vote it wouldn't matter what I did. Drop the potential bomb and undo all of it. Please calm down.
 
Thoughts, Vebyast?


--[] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
---[] Break after giving her a bit to think about it but without giving her enough time to really react to it.
 
[] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.


Kaizuki said:
--[] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
---[] Break after giving her a bit to think about it but without giving her enough time to really react to it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Come on. You're a fucking software developer, you know what happens when you write a complicated bit of code, put it down for a week, and then try to come back and figure out how the fuck it worked and what you were thinking when you wrote it. You don't leave shit like that where you'll have to clean it up later. If you already know what you're going to say, just say it, don't give future-you a chance to fuck it up.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top