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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Checking our notes in the To Do List about Witchbombing Sayaka, the most salient point indeed seems to be letting Sayaka know how dangerous and isolating the knowledge is, before she can decide whether to learn it or not.
 
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Onmur said:
Word of Nadia is that Tsubaki is around, so hopefully we can nip all those problems problems in the bud.

We really should contact Tsubaki asap, though. As soon as we have a minute.

(We also need to repair Kuroki's phone with Grief so we can check it out; ask KB about Hitomi's mom's meguca friend (likely dead); call Nagisa to say hi; check the IRCs Nadia gave us; get in touch with the Tokyogucas; and a bunch of other things!)
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Redshirt Army said:
Hmm. Being in a high-stakes discussion with Sayaka has nudged my thoughts in a certain direction.

Disclaimer: All of this that I'm discussing should take place in an entirely seperate conversation to the one we're in. I'm not advocating in any way for it to happen "now".

Anyway, with that out of the way... We should witchbomb Sayaka. And soon.

Sayaka is in as good a position as she's ever going to be to handle the witchbomb. She's never needed to hunt a Witch for its Seed, and has never given a Seed away to Kyuubey. She already knows that Kyuubey is a manipulative liar with ulterior motives. And she's part of a team that has both the drive and the ability to reverse witching.

Critically, she personally will be of immense utility in cracking the case. She can copy the powers of any number of magical girls whose abilites are useful, but who don't know about the witchbomb or otherwise can't be recruited to help. Additionally, just her base power provides the ability to read and copy souls - both of which are likely to be critical in dewitching, and which directly patch one of the few explicit limitations of Sabrina's powers.

Much like Kirika's wish providing antimagic was a hint Oriko doesn't need her magic, I think Sayaka's wish to be useful granting her the ability to reconstitute souls is a hint to include her in dewitching.

And it should be done soon. Sayaka doesn't like being kept out of the loop, and will take a secret this big being kept from her worse the longer we hide it. More pragmatically, the sooner we tell her, the sooner she can assist in dealing with the influx of refugees, several of whom may be witchbombed and less tight-lipped about it then we'd prefer.

Of course, all of this depends on how she takes the news... But luckily, we have a case example to work off of! In Magica Record, Sayaka gets witchbombed... and handles it extremely well, as long as she has a cause to fight for that she believes is right. It seems very likely to me that as long as we make it clear dewitching is something we are working on, she'll be able to handle it.
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COMBO!

This sets the stage for Sayaka's first away mission? Instead of her sparring session, would Kyoko take a trip with her to bring a Seed to them? Can she teleport, or would her flight be enough? I think the opportunity to be the bringer of good tidings is just the sort of medicine to help after learning the facts of life.
 
Posting this quote because I've seen more than one people misremember:

Firnagzen said:
Oriko's Soul Gem almost seems to be relaxing. Not returning to normal, but... if you had to use an analogy, it seems beaten. Defeated, and slowly settling back into its old shape.
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Oriko's Soul Gem is OK. Oriko rejected her Wish and her Soul twisted itself in four dimensional ways and it hurt a lot but by now it has settled back down, sans precog.
 
The mcooperative vote is a violation of the guidelines on vote formatting re expressing things generally instead of as dialogue, I feel. There is a line between going over 150 words for the sake of clarity and reverting to old-school votes.

I'm also not particularly happy with it's actions. I am *concerned* by things that may lead Homura to see us as having a separate and potentially conflicting interest. The stuff about Oriko as an asset needs to be nixed entirely outside a one-on-one with Homura where we can actually frame it in terms of helping to ensure Madoka's future safety *and* paint Oriko as existing in a state similar to Mami.

The part about Oriko changing *also* needs to be nixed. Homura is constantly suspicious that we are being manipulated by Oriko. Any talk of Oriko changing should be implied rather than stated, using the statements of facts rather than impressions given to us by Oriko.

Further, we have no evidence to believe Oriko's soul gem issues are potentially fatal.

The first bit with the *concerned* in it is far and away my biggest issue with the mc vote. I view that as an unacceptable and foolhardy risk. Breaking with Homura is B A D. I cannot condone that vote.

[X] Godwinson

Although I'd rather vote

[] Delay.

I've been rather preoccupied and haven't had a good chance to pursue this.
 
I've removed the clause about Oriko's soul gem failure from my vote -- I had forgotten that it wasn't thought to be an issue any more. I know at one point we'd thought it was a lethal danger for her...
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Apr 4, 2018 at 12:29 AM, finished with 135482 posts and 22 votes.
  • [X] Answer Homura: Because I believe that I was given the knowledge I woke up with so I could fix things, so I could help people. That whoever or whatever was behind it wanted me to have empathy for everyone I knew about, even Oriko. But that doesn't change what she's done in the past, and if I thought she would try to do anything like that again, then I would help you stop her. Whatever it would take. The three of you, Hitomi, Madoka, you're my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power. Also, I think that we might be able to use this to make their imprisonment more secure.
    -[X] Subtext: I think Madoka wished me into being, and Madoka wouldn't want us to be cruel to Oriko. But that doesn't mean I'll help Oriko be able to hurt Madoka -- please don't think my kindness means I would side with her against you.
    [X] Cut in with Sayaka: It ties into some different, deeply personal things for Homura. I'm not saying not to ask her, or that she should or shouldn't answer, because that's not my place. I'm just saying it's connected to a lot of other, really heavy things for Homura, so that you know just how big of a question you're asking her. So that if she doesn't want to answer, you'll know why. Then pull back a moment so Homura can decide whether she wants to get into that, knowing that Sayaka shouldn't be offended if she declines to answer. (If she does, break vote here, because that'd be huge!)
    -[X] Subtext: I have just been talking about really deep personal history knowledge for Oriko of all people, so my being protective of Homura on this subject ought to be quickly tied to that, to help reinforce that Sayaka's question is bigger than she thinks it is.
    [X] Elaborate more on Oriko's precognition and vision, motives for specific actions, bring up her tip that helped save Sayaka from the witch, and the different sorts of blind-spots Feathers and I produce in her precog. And that I have reason to trust what she was saying when first captured because (shamefully) I had threatened Kirika with a fate worse than death if she didn't answer truthfully.
    -[X] Subtext: I will do things I will hate myself for afterwards to protect my friends.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [x] Answer Homura
    -[x] On a personal level? Same as with everyone else; I want to help. I believe that everything can be fixed. Meguca are for saving.
    --[x] I sound naive. I know. But I believe I have this information about people for a reason. To help everyone I can.
    ---[x] I know there are people, like the insane serial killer magical girl who hoards souls gems, who are beyond anything but the most extreme forms of "help". If I thought Oriko was like that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl.
    --[x] Oriko did a lot of bad things. She could have done more. We stopped her. If I even suspected she was plotting anything, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop her again. I would never let her hurt you three, Hitomi, Madoka- you're all my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power.
    ---[x] That said, with the information I have- I know that she can change. I know she is changing. Into somebody who wouldn't do those things anymore. Into somebody who would do good things instead.
    -[x] More practically? Imprisoning meguca is difficult and expensive. We have limited resources and people. Meguca justice must be preventative, not punitive. We applied that principle in Sendai; whether we like it or not, it's proven itself so far.
    --[x] Oriko and Kirika are extremely useful assets. They've already helped save a lot of people.
    ---[x] Elaborate if necessary (e.g. Masami and Hiroko, Fukushima, saving Sayaka from the witch, Sendai, Asunaro, etc)
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[x] Let Homura field that question
    --[x] If Homura ignores it, do likewise.
    ---[x] If, and only if, Sayaka keeps pressing the issue with Homura, or asks us explicitly:
    ----[x] Tell her it ties into some deeply personal things, as well as some very sensitive information. Homura has good reasons to decide not to answer, and I support her decision.
    ---[x] Either way, drop the subject.
    --[x] If Homura decides to answer, support her.
    [x] Elaborate on Oriko's soul gem failure for why I've been pushing on this topic.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Goal: Re-assure we're on her side.
    --[X] We're just someone who helps people.
    --[X] We will stop Oriko if she tries anything.
    --[X] Our metaknowledge and observations make us believe this is the best way forward.
    -[X] Potentially:
    --[X] Point lives saved and alliances made because we're like this.
    --[X] Oriko foreseeing her own death, at Homura's, Sayaka's, or our hands.
    --[X] Consequences of treating prisoners (and teenagers) inhumanely.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Let Homura field the question.
    --[X] If necessary, intervene in favour of Homura keeping her secrets.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    [X]Null
    [X] meguca are for saving
    [X] meguca are for befriending
    [X] to Sayaka - If it isn't a matter of retribution, could that question be dropped? Homura is on the spot if you insist. Give her a few months?
    [X] Homura. Saving people who will accept being saved can't be wrong. And, when they help our friends, it matters more to us.
    [X] Oriko is changing. Not a threat now. We think we have her on your side, contributing to Mitakihara.
    -[X] As an ally, Oriko has already helped us build a bigger and safer community. She has skills to trade.
    -[X] Ask about her own evaluation and inspection of Oriko.
    [X] We keep taking them out to interact, and watch the results
    [X] What is the better alternative?
    [X] Offer hugs. Accept fear. Share hope.
    [X] Plan joint agreement of next stage Oriko imprisonment, rules. Future hearing, and sentencing.
    [X] return timestop
    [X] Group enchant? That soft rock is ready for other magic now...?
    [X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there, we still need development assistance, refugees are in mourning, ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
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To be honest, trying to read the wall-o-texts is giving me headaches.

I'll just stick to more-respectful-to-the-eyes format. I know how this sounds, but my head literally hurting from wall-o-text.

[X] Homura:
-[X] Goal: Re-assure we're on her side.
--[X] We're just someone who helps people.
--[X] We will stop Oriko if she tries anything.
--[X] Our metaknowledge and observations make us believe this is the best way forward.
-[X] Potentially:
--[X] Point lives saved and alliances made because we're like this.
--[X] Oriko foreseeing her own death, at Homura's, Sayaka's, or our hands.
--[X] Consequences of treating prisoners (and teenagers) inhumanely.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Let Homura field the question.
--[X] If necessary, intervene in favour of Homura keeping her secrets.

[X] Vote in abeyance
 
At some point in the future we should see if Kamihama City exists, because if it does, then there is the possibility that the Magia Record timeline, and thus Doppels, could be possible. If the city does indeed exist, we should ask Homura if she had ever went to Kamihama during her time-traveling. If she did, offer some more information about what we do know about Doppels and Wings of Magius. If she didn't, give her a brief overview of what we know but preface it by stating that it could be extremely unlikely. In either case, preface said information by stating that we are even more uncertain about Kamihama than Asunaro.

As for witchbombing Sayaka, we should wait until at least the soulguca comes by, but we should also inform Sayaka about the infohazard warning. It would be a bit darkly amusing, however, if she already suspects a connection between Puella and Witches.

As for more immediate things, we should at least tell the girls that Oriko aside, we were indeed serious about meguca justice, since it will become an issue when new meguca come in, so we might as well get a rough framework hashed out sooner rather than later, especially with the Shiogama refugees. Also we should tell Homura that related to Oriko and meguca justice, there were pragmatic reasons for us suggesting shielding enchantments for Homura (if we haven't already told her).

Also, check in with Nagisa tomorrow (can't neglect cutest little sister!), and follow up on Tsubaki Mikoto a day or so later, plus the stealthguca that Kyubey referred us to.
 
E1ChristO said:
At some point in the future we should see if Kamihama City exists, because if it does, then there is the possibility that the Magia Record timeline, and thus Doppels, could be possible. If the city does indeed exist, we should ask Homura if she had ever went to Kamihama during her time-traveling. If she did, offer some more information about what we do know about Doppels and Wings of Magius. If she didn't, give her a brief overview of what we know but preface it by stating that it could be extremely unlikely. In either case, preface said information by stating that we are even more uncertain about Kamihama than Asunaro.
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[Q] Ask Homu about Kamehameha city right now.
-[Q] This way you totally avoid all uncomfortable questions.
 
Kaizuki said:
The mcooperative vote is a violation of the guidelines on vote formatting re expressing things generally instead of as dialogue, I feel. There is a line between going over 150 words for the sake of clarity and reverting to old-school votes.
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Could you clarify what you mean by this? I don't understand what "old-school votes" refers to, nor the protocol for general direction versus dialogue. I apologize, I haven't been here too long and may not fully have a handle on appropriate vote format. Could you please refer me to the guidelines you mention, so I can avoid issues in the future? I did not know of their existence, and cannot seem to find them, either in the threadmarks, nor the quest references at the start of the thread, nor the general rules section, and don't want to continue making avoidable mistakes.

That aside, while I admit my vote may be projecting slightly how I would prefer to handle similarly sensitive conversations and/or receive arguments in such conversations- and not necessarily how they may best be handled, particularly by Sabrina, particularly here and now- I think we may simply disagree with the likelihood of certain conclusions being drawn by Homura from the information as presented.

That again being said, you've drawn my attention to a few things that, upon closer examination, are definite Bad Plans and I should definitely know better, some outside factors considered. Wasn't thinking that through the way I was trying, re, talk of Oriko changing particularly in this bit of vote specifically. For that, my thanks.

Until protocol for vote formatting has been clarified to me (upon which point the below vote will be edited to conform to acceptable standard, or otherwise dereferenced), my edited vote below. Oriko-soul-gem-reasoning removed for lack of present relevance, though, I think it would be worth noting the issues that had been happening with her gem, previously, as part of a basis of our knowledge. But probably not where it was placed previously in this vote. Kinda mehhh about some of my phrasing. Hopefully iron it out with the vote format protocol changes later. At not-middle-of-night.

[x] Answer Homura
-[x] On a personal level? Same as with everyone else; I want to help. I believe that everything can be fixed. Meguca are for saving.
--[x] I sound naive. I know. But I believe I have this information about people for a reason. To help everyone I can.
---[x] I know there are people, like the insane serial killer magical girl who hoards souls gems, who are beyond anything but the most extreme forms of "help". If I thought Oriko was like that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl.
--[x] Oriko did a lot of bad things. She could have done more. We stopped her. If I even suspected she was plotting anything, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop her again. I would never let her hurt you three, Hitomi, Madoka- you're all my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power.
---[x] That said, with the information I have, I believe this is the best course of action to make sure it never comes to that.
-[x] More practically? Imprisoning meguca is difficult and expensive. We have limited resources and people. Meguca justice must be preventative, not punitive. We applied that principle in Sendai; whether we like it or not, it's proven itself so far.
--[x] Oriko and Kirika are extremely useful assets. They've already helped save a lot of people.
---[x] Elaborate if necessary (e.g. Masami and Hiroko, Fukushima, saving Sayaka from the witch, Sendai, Asunaro, etc)

[x] Sayaka
-[x] Let Homura field that question
--[x] If Homura ignores it, do likewise.
---[x] If, and only if, Sayaka keeps pressing the issue with Homura, or asks us explicitly:
----[x] Tell her it ties into some deeply personal things, as well as some very sensitive information. Homura has good reasons to decide not to answer, and I support her decision.
---[x] Either way, drop the subject.
--[x] If Homura decides to answer, support her.

[x] Vote in abeyance
-[x] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
 
mCooperative said:
Could you clarify what you mean by this? I don't understand what "old-school votes" refers to, nor the protocol for general direction versus dialogue.
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I don't know where the standards were set out, since I wasn't paying attention to the thread at that point and it wasn't threadmarked, but back in the day we had enormous votes longer then some updates containing quoted dialogue, with corresponding arguments about the exact wording of specific lines. Now we go with describing our intent and what points we want to make and let Firn write our lines.
 
E1ChristO said:
Magia Record timeline, and thus Doppels, could be possible
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Vaguely terrified in the possibility we summon something eldritch.

In other news, in the fit of boredom, have an omake for a proto-story I don't know how to write:

PMASxTanya : Counter Culture
1?) Ice Climbers
Disclaimer: I don't know how to write Sabrina

[[Dear Sabrina,


Sorry for the cold. The Arctic is the only place I've found that He pays little attention to, and closer enough to your target. He'll kick you out if he finds someone anomalous to his "plans," so I'm going to have to advise you to heavily restrict how much power you use. I've included gloves in your duffel bag that will limit your range to 5 meters, but.... Just try to avoid using our native magic in general


Also in your bag , I've included a book our this world's magic system. Figure out how to cast their spells. Its likely that's going to be the only magic you'll be able to use until you're about to leave, so try to get proficient. Mages here often use a staff, or in recent times, a gun to help them cast. Homura suggested the shortened rifle you've been carrying around and barely using.


I've included a picture of the girl I'm looking for. You'll have several years before she starts getting into trouble, but at the same time, try to limit your sightseeing. I know it sounds daunting, but don't worry, I have complete faith that you'll succeed.


Oh! A friend wanted to stretch her legs, and volunteered to help you out. Hiding her presence is going to be a bigger hurdle, so I had to have her grow a disguise on the spot. She'll be in the silk egg beside you. You'll have to carry her around for a while, and you'll have to offload a lot of your grief to her in order to hide you magic. It helps that it also makes her stronger, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. The reason why I chose her was more that she relies a bit less on magic in her fights; sorry to have to separate you from Mami again.


One final thing before I send you off: our friends gave you some gifts. They'll be in the second box, burn it when you get them out.]]


"Huh," Sabrina said, before stuffing the letter into her pocket. White ice and snow surrounded her in every direction. At her feet was a grey duffel bag, slightly bulging. To its side, there was a cardboard box. She cut the box open with a tiny knife of grief.


"'From Sayaka'," she read. The tag was attached to a short styled dagger, of the same design as Sayaka's cutlasses. "Cool, it still has the triggers mechanism." Sabrina strapped it to her waist and reached for the next one.


"From Kyouko." This one was a basket full of ice cream. Glancing at the freezing landscape around her, she shrugged. "I guess?" she said and returned to the box.


"From Homura and Mami," she said. She found a grip and lifted; it was her Obrez, though with an addition. The sides were brass-planted and carved with--


Sabrina carefully set it down onto the snow, looked away, and fanned herself. "Woo. Ok, I can do this. Yes." After collecting herself, she slipped the sawn-off into a pocket and looked into the box.


"From Oriko and Kirika," was the next one. It was a big floppy hat. She placed it on her head and burned the box with a flicker of heat. Items equipped, she picked up the duffel bag and peeked inside. Bulging out was a silken egg slightly larger than a basketball. "Looks like you and me are going on an adventure, friend." She zipped it shut and slung it over her shoulder "Onwards!"
 
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Onmur said:
Oriko's Soul Gem is OK. Oriko rejected her Wish and her Soul twisted itself in four dimensional ways and it hurt a lot but by now it has settled back down, sans precog.
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Doesn't the quote you included say "not returning to its original shape" , and "slowly going back to normal" ? Is the idea that its becoming fixed is assured and so not an issue to deal with right now? Because it doesn't seem true that its currently back to normal entirely, anyways, and might still be worth pointing out how badly the situation /had/ screwed her up? "We almost killed her, and the pain was so bad she willingly let herself be gemmed for (hours?days?) till we could help better" might have some value if not quite the same as "we are currently killing her" .

If nothing else its interesting to bring up (if Sayaka wasn't too tripped out on irrationality correlated to age and thus being hypocritical and selfish) that such soul distortions are possible and how that might impact future view of meguca rehabilitation. Anri's wish was more focused on the deadguca and not Pleiades-revenge right? But if we ever try to convert Hijiri to goodness then a wish resembling her canon one would seem a rejection-risk comparable to Oriko's situation.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by The Phoenixian on Apr 4, 2018 at 5:47 AM, finished with 135488 posts and 22 votes.
  • [X] Answer Homura: Because I believe that I was given the knowledge I woke up with so I could fix things, so I could help people. That whoever or whatever was behind it wanted me to have empathy for everyone I knew about, even Oriko. But that doesn't change what she's done in the past, and if I thought she would try to do anything like that again, then I would help you stop her. Whatever it would take. The three of you, Hitomi, Madoka, you're my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power. Also, I think that we might be able to use this to make their imprisonment more secure.
    -[X] Subtext: I think Madoka wished me into being, and Madoka wouldn't want us to be cruel to Oriko. But that doesn't mean I'll help Oriko be able to hurt Madoka -- please don't think my kindness means I would side with her against you.
    [X] Cut in with Sayaka: It ties into some different, deeply personal things for Homura. I'm not saying not to ask her, or that she should or shouldn't answer, because that's not my place. I'm just saying it's connected to a lot of other, really heavy things for Homura, so that you know just how big of a question you're asking her. So that if she doesn't want to answer, you'll know why. Then pull back a moment so Homura can decide whether she wants to get into that, knowing that Sayaka shouldn't be offended if she declines to answer. (If she does, break vote here, because that'd be huge!)
    -[X] Subtext: I have just been talking about really deep personal history knowledge for Oriko of all people, so my being protective of Homura on this subject ought to be quickly tied to that, to help reinforce that Sayaka's question is bigger than she thinks it is.
    [X] Elaborate more on Oriko's precognition and vision, motives for specific actions, bring up her tip that helped save Sayaka from the witch, and the different sorts of blind-spots Feathers and I produce in her precog. And that I have reason to trust what she was saying when first captured because (shamefully) I had threatened Kirika with a fate worse than death if she didn't answer truthfully.
    -[X] Subtext: I will do things I will hate myself for afterwards to protect my friends.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Goal: Re-assure we're on her side.
    --[X] We're just someone who helps people.
    --[X] We will stop Oriko if she tries anything.
    --[X] Our metaknowledge and observations make us believe this is the best way forward.
    -[X] Potentially:
    --[X] Point lives saved and alliances made because we're like this.
    --[X] Oriko foreseeing her own death, at Homura's, Sayaka's, or our hands.
    --[X] Consequences of treating prisoners (and teenagers) inhumanely.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Let Homura field the question.
    --[X] If necessary, intervene in favour of Homura keeping her secrets.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    [x] Answer Homura
    -[x] On a personal level? Same as with everyone else; I want to help. I believe that everything can be fixed. Meguca are for saving.
    --[x] I sound naive. I know. But I believe I have this information about people for a reason. To help everyone I can.
    ---[x] I know there are people, like the insane serial killer magical girl who hoards souls gems, who are beyond anything but the most extreme forms of "help". If I thought Oriko was like that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl.
    --[x] Oriko did a lot of bad things. She could have done more. We stopped her. If I even suspected she was plotting anything, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop her again. I would never let her hurt you three, Hitomi, Madoka- you're all my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power.
    ---[x] That said, with the information I have, I believe this is the best course of action to make sure it never comes to that.
    -[x] More practically? Imprisoning meguca is difficult and expensive. We have limited resources and people. Meguca justice must be preventative, not punitive. We applied that principle in Sendai; whether we like it or not, it's proven itself so far.
    --[x] Oriko and Kirika are extremely useful assets. They've already helped save a lot of people.
    ---[x] Elaborate if necessary (e.g. Masami and Hiroko, Fukushima, saving Sayaka from the witch, Sendai, Asunaro, etc)
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[x] Let Homura field that question
    --[x] If Homura ignores it, do likewise.
    ---[x] If, and only if, Sayaka keeps pressing the issue with Homura, or asks us explicitly:
    ----[x] Tell her it ties into some deeply personal things, as well as some very sensitive information. Homura has good reasons to decide not to answer, and I support her decision.
    ---[x] Either way, drop the subject.
    --[x] If Homura decides to answer, support her.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X]Null
    [X] meguca are for saving
    [X] meguca are for befriending
    [X] to Sayaka - If it isn't a matter of retribution, could that question be dropped? Homura is on the spot if you insist. Give her a few months?
    [X] Homura. Saving people who will accept being saved can't be wrong. And, when they help our friends, it matters more to us.
    [X] Oriko is changing. Not a threat now. We think we have her on your side, contributing to Mitakihara.
    -[X] As an ally, Oriko has already helped us build a bigger and safer community. She has skills to trade.
    -[X] Ask about her own evaluation and inspection of Oriko.
    [X] We keep taking them out to interact, and watch the results
    [X] What is the better alternative?
    [X] Offer hugs. Accept fear. Share hope.
    [X] Plan joint agreement of next stage Oriko imprisonment, rules. Future hearing, and sentencing.
    [X] return timestop
    [X] Group enchant? That soft rock is ready for other magic now...?
    [X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there, we still need development assistance, refugees are in mourning, ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
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Redshirt Army said:
Hmm. Being in a high-stakes discussion with Sayaka has nudged my thoughts in a certain direction.

Disclaimer: All of this that I'm discussing should take place in an entirely seperate conversation to the one we're in. I'm not advocating in any way for it to happen "now".

Anyway, with that out of the way... We should witchbomb Sayaka. And soon.

Sayaka is in as good a position as she's ever going to be to handle the witchbomb. She's never needed to hunt a Witch for its Seed, and has never given a Seed away to Kyuubey. She already knows that Kyuubey is a manipulative liar with ulterior motives. And she's part of a team that has both the drive and the ability to reverse witching.

Critically, she personally will be of immense utility in cracking the case. She can copy the powers of any number of magical girls whose abilites are useful, but who don't know about the witchbomb or otherwise can't be recruited to help. Additionally, just her base power provides the ability to read and copy souls - both of which are likely to be critical in dewitching, and which directly patch one of the few explicit limitations of Sabrina's powers.

Much like Kirika's wish providing antimagic was a hint Oriko doesn't need her magic, I think Sayaka's wish to be useful granting her the ability to reconstitute souls is a hint to include her in dewitching.

And it should be done soon. Sayaka doesn't like being kept out of the loop, and will take a secret this big being kept from her worse the longer we hide it. More pragmatically, the sooner we tell her, the sooner she can assist in dealing with the influx of refugees, several of whom may be witchbombed and less tight-lipped about it then we'd prefer.

Of course, all of this depends on how she takes the news... But luckily, we have a case example to work off of! In Magica Record, Sayaka gets witchbombed... and handles it extremely well, as long as she has a cause to fight for that she believes is right. It seems very likely to me that as long as we make it clear dewitching is something we are working on, she'll be able to handle it.
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I'm concerned not so much about the witchbomb's impact on Sayaka, but whether she can be trusted with knowledge of this magnitude. In very basic practical terms, I can easily see her throwing another anger-fueled temper tantrum, and letting the witchbomb slip in Mami's presence, which would be absolutely disastrous.

In broader terms, Sayaka still doesn't strike me as someone who really understands the gravity of the problems we face, and the bleakness of meguca existence in general. Seems to me that she still thinks of it as a kind of big game, where she gets to punch witches and evildoers for great justice. When we brought up the difficult problems we'll have to deal with as more refugees arrive, her reaction was something to the extent of "Yeah, whatever, I dunno", which is not encouraging.

Yes, witchbombing her could help put her in the right mindset, but I don't know that I trust her enough to take that risk. With Mami and Homura, even though we keep secrets from both of them, and we spend a lot of time dealing with their issues, we get a lot of their support and trust in return. I don't think we have that with Sayaka yet.
 
Kaizuki said:
The mcooperative vote is a violation of the guidelines on vote formatting re expressing things generally instead of as dialogue, I feel. There is a line between going over 150 words for the sake of clarity and reverting to old-school votes.
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Godwinson's vote is doing that as well, only more so.
 
Here's a thought: Walpurgisnacht is an alias.
We can see the true names, though.
Does it mean that we'd be able to see her true name in the oncoming fight?

Imagine if it's something innocuous, like Anna. Or Bob.
A city-destroying Witch named Bob.
:eyeroll:
 
Inserted tally

It seems that Godwinson's vote has a sizable lead.
Adhoc vote count started by Shadowhisker on Apr 4, 2018 at 9:03 AM, finished with 135493 posts and 22 votes.
  • [X] Answer Homura: Because I believe that I was given the knowledge I woke up with so I could fix things, so I could help people. That whoever or whatever was behind it wanted me to have empathy for everyone I knew about, even Oriko. But that doesn't change what she's done in the past, and if I thought she would try to do anything like that again, then I would help you stop her. Whatever it would take. The three of you, Hitomi, Madoka, you're my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power. Also, I think that we might be able to use this to make their imprisonment more secure.
    -[X] Subtext: I think Madoka wished me into being, and Madoka wouldn't want us to be cruel to Oriko. But that doesn't mean I'll help Oriko be able to hurt Madoka -- please don't think my kindness means I would side with her against you.
    [X] Cut in with Sayaka: It ties into some different, deeply personal things for Homura. I'm not saying not to ask her, or that she should or shouldn't answer, because that's not my place. I'm just saying it's connected to a lot of other, really heavy things for Homura, so that you know just how big of a question you're asking her. So that if she doesn't want to answer, you'll know why. Then pull back a moment so Homura can decide whether she wants to get into that, knowing that Sayaka shouldn't be offended if she declines to answer. (If she does, break vote here, because that'd be huge!)
    -[X] Subtext: I have just been talking about really deep personal history knowledge for Oriko of all people, so my being protective of Homura on this subject ought to be quickly tied to that, to help reinforce that Sayaka's question is bigger than she thinks it is.
    [X] Elaborate more on Oriko's precognition and vision, motives for specific actions, bring up her tip that helped save Sayaka from the witch, and the different sorts of blind-spots Feathers and I produce in her precog. And that I have reason to trust what she was saying when first captured because (shamefully) I had threatened Kirika with a fate worse than death if she didn't answer truthfully.
    -[X] Subtext: I will do things I will hate myself for afterwards to protect my friends.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Goal: Re-assure we're on her side.
    --[X] We're just someone who helps people.
    --[X] We will stop Oriko if she tries anything.
    --[X] Our metaknowledge and observations make us believe this is the best way forward.
    -[X] Potentially:
    --[X] Point lives saved and alliances made because we're like this.
    --[X] Oriko foreseeing her own death, at Homura's, Sayaka's, or our hands.
    --[X] Consequences of treating prisoners (and teenagers) inhumanely.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Let Homura field the question.
    --[X] If necessary, intervene in favour of Homura keeping her secrets.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    [x] Answer Homura
    -[x] On a personal level? Same as with everyone else; I want to help. I believe that everything can be fixed. Meguca are for saving.
    --[x] I sound naive. I know. But I believe I have this information about people for a reason. To help everyone I can.
    ---[x] I know there are people, like the insane serial killer magical girl who hoards souls gems, who are beyond anything but the most extreme forms of "help". If I thought Oriko was like that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl.
    --[x] Oriko did a lot of bad things. She could have done more. We stopped her. If I even suspected she was plotting anything, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop her again. I would never let her hurt you three, Hitomi, Madoka- you're all my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power.
    ---[x] That said, with the information I have, I believe this is the best course of action to make sure it never comes to that.
    -[x] More practically? Imprisoning meguca is difficult and expensive. We have limited resources and people. Meguca justice must be preventative, not punitive. We applied that principle in Sendai; whether we like it or not, it's proven itself so far.
    --[x] Oriko and Kirika are extremely useful assets. They've already helped save a lot of people.
    ---[x] Elaborate if necessary (e.g. Masami and Hiroko, Fukushima, saving Sayaka from the witch, Sendai, Asunaro, etc)
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[x] Let Homura field that question
    --[x] If Homura ignores it, do likewise.
    ---[x] If, and only if, Sayaka keeps pressing the issue with Homura, or asks us explicitly:
    ----[x] Tell her it ties into some deeply personal things, as well as some very sensitive information. Homura has good reasons to decide not to answer, and I support her decision.
    ---[x] Either way, drop the subject.
    --[x] If Homura decides to answer, support her.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X]Null
    [X] meguca are for befriending
    [X] to Sayaka - If it isn't a matter of retribution, could that question be dropped? Homura is on the spot if you insist. Give her a few months?
    [X] Homura. Saving people who will accept being saved can't be wrong. And, when they help our friends, it matters more to us.
    [X] Oriko is changing. Not a threat now. We think we have her on your side, contributing to Mitakihara.
    -[X] As an ally, Oriko has already helped us build a bigger and safer community. She has skills to trade.
    -[X] Ask about her own evaluation and inspection of Oriko.
    [X] We keep taking them out to interact, and watch the results
    [X] What is the better alternative?
    [X] Offer hugs. Accept fear. Share hope.
    [X] Plan joint agreement of next stage Oriko imprisonment, rules. Future hearing, and sentencing.
    [X] return timestop
    [X] Group enchant? That soft rock is ready for other magic now...?
    [X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there, we still need development assistance, refugees are in mourning, ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
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If anyone has bookmarked or knows roughly where to find when Firn expressed the vote guidelines, I'd appreciate being directed to them so I can keep them in mind for reference.

I apologise for my vote reading like direct dialogue; I was copying @Godwinson 's vote's format in that regard. I also note that I did not strictly intend to be sounding like I was suggesting dialogue-piloting Sabrina, though in retrospect the first person narration absolutely suggests that I was; again, I apologise. I don't actually think I have a good enough handle on Sabrina to even try dialogue-piloting her; writing terse sentences in first person was mostly a result of my attempt to get my head around how I would even start trying to deal with the situation we're voting on, further modified as a frankenvote from the other vote proposals in the thread. The resulting vote was intended to be more direction than dialogue; if ever I intend short snippets of specific dialogue in a vote it would have been placed specifically in quotes. Which... is a non-obvious way to assess a vote not containing that content, if left unexplained, for which I apologise again (and also for all the apologising, uh, er, it's just how I do the, talking, expressing, uh, thing... sorry?)

At this time I believe editing my vote to fix this issue may radically change its tone, because it would change how I approach formatting the argument. Also it would take time I would rather not be spending on a vote that's demonstrably not liable to win anyway. So, I will keep the guidelines about not dialogue-piloting or implying dialogue-pilot in mind for future votecrafting, and apologise for any inconvenience or impropriety with my present phrasing and format.
 
Godwinson said:
[X] Cut in with Sayaka: It ties into some different, deeply personal things for Homura. I'm not saying not to ask her, or that she should or shouldn't answer, because that's not my place. I'm just saying it's connected to a lot of other, really heavy things for Homura, so that you know just how big of a question you're asking her. So that if she doesn't want to answer, you'll know why. Then pull back a moment so Homura can decide whether she wants to get into that, knowing that Sayaka shouldn't be offended if she declines to answer. (If she does, break vote here, because that'd be huge!)
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Keep in mind that there's no telepathy in timestop. You really want to say all this right in front of Homura like she's not even there? Because it's actually revealing a fair bit about her that she has not chosen to reveal for herself, and the hinting at some traumatic backstory between her and Oriko will just make Sayaka even more curious.

Homura's already basically ignored Sayaka's inquiry in her usual manner; if we say nothing more about it, it likely won't be brought up again. Whereas giving this longwinded speech about Homura while she's standing right there is honestly pretty rude.
 
[X] Homura:
-[X] Goal: Re-assure we're on her side.
--[X] We're just someone who helps people.
--[X] We will stop Oriko if she tries anything.
--[X] Our metaknowledge and observations make us believe this is the best way forward.
-[X] Potentially:
--[X] Point lives saved and alliances made because we're like this.
--[X] Oriko foreseeing her own death, at Homura's, Sayaka's, or our hands.
--[X] Consequences of treating prisoners (and teenagers) inhumanely.
[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Let Homura field the question.
--[X] If necessary, intervene in favour of Homura keeping her secrets.
[X] Vote in abeyance

Godswins vote still feels really... off to me.

These are not people we should be trying to manipulate.
 
Godwinson is not trying to manipulate them.

Rather

I'd say they try to manipulate Sabrina, but that statement would be so hilariously wrong on so many levels I'll just leave it here unattended.

Rather, as I understand it, Godwinson is trying a new vote format to better convey Sabrina's ( as in us, voters ) thoughts and emotions. Or something.

This's just gone too meta for me. I'm off to write another silly omake about Momucifer and Momoka or whatever.
 
Vebyast said:
Can we just... make that a general policy, please?

Sabrina can wordsmith herself. We'll get better results if we do that because then Sabrina is on the same wavelength as the rest of the characters in the quest. There are circumstances where you have to micromanage votes. Jade in Ignition was, for a long time, so depressed and had so many issues that we had to choose every word carefully to avoid poking her anxiety triggers. But Firn isn't a dick and Sabrina can social reasonably well, and we can and should trust Sabrina to choose the words for us.

Even if we decide to do wordsmithing, can we please leave it to the end of the vote, as a final pass before we actually send it off to be spoken?
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Firnagzen said:
I very much like this idea. Not gonna enforce it as a general policy, but I like it.
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Huh, I've found this. A year and three months ago, there was a similar argument. It's nonindicative of my opinion on "votecrafting", and well, opinions change, it's just a curious tidbit from the forum's past I'd like to share after digging it out.

"There is no new thing under the sun" and all.
 
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