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Serious question:

How are you planning to avoid witch-bombing Sayaka with this explanation?

Because a key mitigating factor of "Oriko potentially murders Madoka in cold blood" is that Oriko accurately foresees that if Madoka contracts, she can become supremely powerful, and then witch out and destroy the world, and is acting to prevent that from happening.

And if you explain that, well, you're opening a very big can of worms.
 
I'm trying to tune a frankenvote of @Vebyast and @Onmur because I think I can see a way to make these two votes not quite as cross-purpose as they are now. Also, phrasing and wordcount. Because we need some apologies for how we started this, but we also need to continue this conversation in a way that un-red-tapes it, hopefully.

Phigment said:
Serious question:

How are you planning to avoid witch-bombing Sayaka with this explanation?

Because a key mitigating factor of "Oriko potentially murders Madoka in cold blood" is that Oriko accurately foresees that if Madoka contracts, she can become supremely powerful, and then witch out and destroy the world, and is acting to prevent that from happening.

And if you explain that, well, you're opening a very big can of worms.
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Also this.

Frankenvote pending, please hold.
 
[x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
[x] Lay out every fact you have.
-[x] Oriko's history, framed as possible outcomes that did not come to pass because you decided to make changes.
-[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best it could do after you captured her.
-[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
-[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
[x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and I am tired of fucking this up because the format of the quest limits us to thirty fucking seconds of conversation at a time.
[x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
 
Wirikidor said:
-[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
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I wonder who this mysterious assassin could possibly be?

Vebyast said:
You know what? Fancy-talk is getting us killed. Every time we try something we just dig ourselves deeper. Sayaka wants us to talk to her straight? She wants us to respect her opinions? Fine, we'll infodump to her, give her all of the information and let her deal with it. Homura wants to know that we're not compromised or some shit? Fine, we'll infodump to her, show her how we reached our conclusions. They asked for it, they get it.

[x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
[x] Lay out every fact you have.
-[x] Oriko's history, framed as possible outcomes that did not come to pass because you decided to make changes.
-[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best it could do after you captured her.
-[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
-[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
[x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and I am tired of fucking this up because the format of the quest limits us to thirty fucking seconds of conversation at a time.
[x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
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I understand the frustration this approach is borne of. Honestly, in comparison to other options available to us, it's not bad. They are our friends after all, which goes both ways, they owe us an honest attempt at understanding our motivation. And I do think they would indeed listen.

But what if, after all this, their position is still that Oriko and Kirika should stay under house arrest for the foreseeable future? That more or less leaves us with no cards to play. Well, aside from the Walpurgisnacht card, I guess. Are we fine with just letting things go if it comes to that?
 
mCooperative said:
Frankenvote pending, please hol
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Just, whatever you do, don't make it so apologetic. Stopping every two words to assure everyone of our intentions is exactly what's causing this clusterfuck.

Sabrina needs to get down to brass tacks and spit it out.

Until frankenvote appears, I'm sticking with Vebyast on this. Even witchbombing the non-mami people is better than... this. At least that has an actionable result: keep draining Grief from her Soul Gem until we can calm her down.
 
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Phigment said:
Serious question:

How are you planning to avoid witch-bombing Sayaka with this explanation?

Because a key mitigating factor of "Oriko potentially murders Madoka in cold blood" is that Oriko accurately foresees that if Madoka contracts, she can become supremely powerful, and then witch out and destroy the world, and is acting to prevent that from happening.

And if you explain that, well, you're opening a very big can of worms.
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"I can't tell you that. Homura can confirm that."
Roomba said:
But what if, after all this, their position is still that Oriko and Kirika should stay under house arrest for the foreseeable future? That more or less leaves us with no cards to play. Well, aside from the Walpurgisnacht card, I guess. Are we fine with just letting things go if it comes to that?
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If we can't convince them with the truth, I'm not sure I want to try convincing them with anything less.

There is, of course, the "for her own good" argument. Like I said, I'm not sure if I want to follow through on that logic. Both Sayaka and Homura would be way the hell better off with a heaping pile of "for her own good". But, you know, it doesn't feel right to be so nakedly patronizing, even if it's totally accurate that they can't handle their lives themselves.
 
Homura and Sayaka have already come to unconsciously believe that we are too defensive of Oriko and Kirika, and that we are not on their side.
They wouldn't say it, explicitly, but unconscious psychology is a bitch.

They aren't working off of the same knowledge and subjectivities that we are, so they simply can't understand how we could possibly think the way we do.

As such, I agree with Vebyast for now that we have to honestly explain the why, rather than the what.

[X] Vebyast

(Although I do think we, the thread, should remember that we, and thus Sabrina, are vastly divergent in how we perceive the world than anyone else. Like, I know that we've been waiting for years for the Kures problem to pan out, but in-quest we have to remember that it's only been two weeks. I hold petty grudges longer than that, to say nothing of Sayaka and Homura to someone they believe/know (respectively) to be a dangerous criminal/murderer)
 
Think we should mention how we get funny about time sometimes? How 2 weeks can seem like years if we're going for a detailed batch of personal reasons? What about "I'm trying not to be the Leviathan but a Leviathan can be multiple people?"
 
Conjured Blade said:
Think we should mention how we get funny about time sometimes? How 2 weeks can seem like years if we're going for a detailed batch of personal reasons? What about "I'm trying not to be the Leviathan but a Leviathan can be multiple people?"
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If we're laying everything about our feelings, and why, out there, I think it might should at least get a mention, if we're being honest. It's a non-zero part of our unique perspective, no different than our added intel.

What say the thread?
 
Also, as a continuation of my last post, I believe that getting literally anyone else to present our arguments for us would do more to convince the two than anything we could say.

Sabrina=Unusually and excessively sympathetic to Oriko. <--- Homura's mind
Sabrina - How the hell can she trust them so much? <--- Sayaka's mind
Sabrina: She's biased <--- Both of them

My shot in the dark.
 
Right, I can barely force myself to read the update, but can I propose an expansion for the start of Onmur's stuff?

[] Apologize: You're terrified of this discussion and as a result you're not handling it well.
Because, well, for one we kindof are worried about that. It tracks to how we've acted and IC, it reads like why Sabrina is avoiding things like she is. And being a little human and showing a little weakness isn't always a bad thing.

[] There's something you should have made clear: Nothing happens without both of their say-so. Sayaka has every right to have the last word here, and you need Homura to keep your... youness in check.

As another expansion, with not just that the opinion matters, but what I feel are the very real reasons why (Even if not, in Homura's case, all of why.)
 
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Firnagzen said:
"You- you wanted to get me to agree to all that- and then apply it to her?" Sayaka snarls, fists balling.
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"Do you honestly believe in those ideals, or would you have just agreed to go along with what I was suggesting? Not that I'd dislike you if that's the case, but I'd rather have your honest opinion, just like with Mami."

--maybe slip something like that in teasingly.
 
We may not be able to say it. But if Oriko's confinement is indefinite/dependant on Sayaka deciding to let her out and we don't do it for every arsonist? That's the point we turn into just an extremely powerful group of villains. If we did it solely for the sake of Homura's trauma, full stop, we are villains.
 
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[x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
[x] Lay out every fact you have.
-[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
--[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
-[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
--[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
-[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
-[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
-[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
[x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
[x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
 
Conjured Blade said:
We may not be able to say it. But if Oriko's confinement is indefinite/dependant on Sayaka deciding to let her out and we don't do it for every arsonist? That's the point we turn into just an extremely powerful group of villains. If we did it solely for the sake of Homura's trauma, full stop, we are villains.
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You know, and the attempted murder. Homura isn't exactly Shadow running here.
 
Roomba said:
I wonder who this mysterious assassin could possibly be?
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Oriko grimaces. "You must understand, if it's a magical girl, then it happens... early. But of the already few times that it is a magical girl... many times, it's Akemi Homura. Other times, Miki Sayaka. Seldom, it's a blondemagical girl with long hair, and green eyes."

She gives you a razor thin, edged smile. "Generally, you do a good job of preventing it. But very rarely..." Sea-green eyes flick over to regard you steadily.

She means you.
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The Phoenixian said:
Right, I can barely force myself to read the update, but can I propose an expansion for the start of Onmur's stuff?

[] Apologize: You're terrified of this discussion and as a result you're not handling it well.
Because, well, for one we kindof are worried about that. It tracks to how we've acted and IC, it reads like why Sabrina is avoiding things like she is. And being a little human and showing a little weakness isn't always a bad thing.

[] There's something you should have made clear: Nothing happens without both of their say-so. Sayaka has every right to have the last word here, and you need Homura to keep your... youness in check.

As another expansion, with not just that the opinion matters, but what I feel are the very real reasons why (Even if not, in Homura's case, all of why.)
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[X] Vote tone:
-[X] Apologetic. You're scared, frustrated, and hurting/angering your friends.
-[X] Reassuring. Homura and Sayaka come first. Nothing happens without their say-so.
-[X] Caring. Promote understanding of each other's feelings.

[X] Homura:
-[X] Look after her. Ask if she wants to talk privately, and what she wants to do.

[X] Continue, with their permission.

[X] Offer to share everything: What you know and feel.
-[X] The root of Oriko's actions, of her pain.
-[X] Betrayal. Abandonement.
-[X] You're the only one who cares.

[X] Ask if there's anything they can give us. Anything we can give them.

[ ] Propose:
-[ ] Relocation.
-[ ] Selling Oriko's house and paying back the Mikis.
 
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[x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
[x] Lay out every fact you have.
-[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
--[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
-[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
--[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
-[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
-[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
-[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
[x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
[x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
 
... it's occurring to me, that one way or another- and I don't think we'll get a decision on what-do today, or even that we should push for one. I think we should specifically give them time, days, to work out what they're thinking.

But even with just a think-it-over-this-is-a-heavy-topic...

... We may have Hitomi breathing down our necks about "presuming judgement" again. And we haven't actually resolved the issue of trying to keep it from seeming like we're saying "muggles fuck off", and with the arguments of "injured parties with a say in this", we'll need to have at least part of this talk with Hitomi at some point.

... flashbacks to The Slap and Also Our Table.


Frankenvote still in progress, taking into account @Onmur and @Vebyast's updated votes.
 
Onmur said:
-[X] Betrayal. Abandonement.
-[X] You're the only one who cares.
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I just think don't think that either of them are going to care, at best. More likely that's going to make us come off as too preferential to O&K.

Honestly, Vebyast's post seems like the most likely to get through. I think we should point out more of the way this problem is indicative of many of the issues of the wider meguca "culture" and how Sayaka's insistence on justice seems inconsistent with the way she's wanting to deal with Oriko. But that also does nothing to help reassure Homura either, and I'm actually more worried about her than Sayaka.
 
Vebyast said:
-[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
--[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
-[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
--[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
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Click to shrink...

Why is this at all necessary? Hypothetical cases aren't going to be convincing at all to Sayaka, and this still treads very uncomfortably on Homura's toes.

Oriko's actions are justified (or, rather, not justified) in the self-contained context of this singular timeline. Going off on a tangent about parallel universes is missing the point and is irrelevant to the actual discussion at hand.

How is talking about how Oriko might have decided to kill Madoka for reasons we won't disclose in an alternate timeline supposed to help this situation, again?

Removing the quoted section entirely would, in my opinion, immediately and drastically improve the quality of this vote.

Vebyast said:
If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
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Same for this. Spending 40+ words being salty about the vote format doesn't actually help us resolve this situation. Use it to provide some nuance and tonal details, instead.

Of course, at that point, your vote would basically just be @Onmur's anyway, so perhaps we'd be better served just voting for that instead...
 
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