Exactly what Derpmind said. Nod is already facing extinction if they let us build up. Assuming we don't go to Karachi their nukes don't disappear, they stick around and get used at a point where they think it'll hurt GDI the most unless GDI never threatens anything Nod finds important.

Also, I think you are massively overestimating the risk of Nod starting strategic nuclear war in response to Karachi.

Our force in Karachi is pretty much certain to get attacked IMO. That is going to happen regardless of if we build it slow or quick. Building it quick means the attack is more likely to be the kind of massive slugging match that GDI tends to excel in and where (if we win) we are likely to do massive damage to Nod's fighting ability. So let's stack the deck
 
A conflict with Nod, either in its entirety or against individuals or a coalition of warlords, is inevitable.
Since in the three previous wars we were always forced to react to Nod's actions, it would be nice for a change if we could be proactive.
Karachi serves several purposes in this regard, firstly it allows us to better supply one of our remaining Blue Zones and secondly it weakens the Nod Brotherhood, whether they attack or not.
If this position is attacked and we resist the attack, our opponent will not only lose troops and material, but also legitimacy and the feeling of security from us that he has enjoyed so far.
Moreover, his ability to help other warlords will be limited, as he will need the means not only to recover from the conflict, but also to arm himself for a larger conflict against us.
If he does not attack, we still have an improvement in supplies for our blue zone, and at the same time the warlord has to raise troops to watch us and keep us from pushing deeper into his territory, while at the same time he is exposed to internal rivals who criticise him for his cowardice in the face of our forces.
Therefore, I consider it essential that we complete this project in as short a time as possible, since as long as our forces are not defeated, we will be victorious.
 
Yeah, Karachi basically allows us to dictate the timing and approximate location of the next big engagement, which, in military terms, is huge. So I'm all for getting it going. Or, Nod could choose to slink away instead, which is also fine.
 
I just hope we pack it full of all kinds of soldiers weapons and defense systems fast and not focus on stuff like making the city look pretty this is not the time for that.
 
The other thing is that Karachi is probably a pretty decent naval base to interdict shipping through the Indian Ocean, and Pakistan is probably the land route to shipping into Russia so it also puts us in position to threaten overland routes as well. Very tentatively, it also potentially sets the stage for securing Sri Lanka to further throw up walls between the warlords.

I don't suspect we'll be able to perfectly isolate any of the warlords, but the more resources it requires for them to collaborate the harder it will be for them to justify it when GDI is pressing them all.
 
I just hope we pack it full of all kinds of soldiers weapons and defense systems fast and not focus on stuff like making the city look pretty this is not the time for that.

GDI is not incompetent.

Karachi will be a logistics focused city in hostile territory. There'll be pretty places deep within the defenses, but most of the work will be making sure the goods get moved and not shot at.
 
OTOH Vehrec, we are not threatening their core territories.

Every other argument aside, let's be frank, this is not true. India (that great untouched laboratory of horror) is the closest thing Nod has to a core territory and Karachi is the geostrategic equivalent of planting a rumba with a claymore strapped to it in the nextdoor lawn. It is the single most aggressive action we will have taken in this game to date.
 
I just hope we pack it full of all kinds of soldiers weapons and defense systems fast and not focus on stuff like making the city look pretty this is not the time for that.
Like Hazard said, GDI is not incompetent.. I imagine some of the first things put up will be various point defences and other such things. They'll probably build it from the outside in, defences first then bring in the civilian contractors for the city
 
I really should find the time to do that writeup on Naval Logistics
So, like, I've got some...issues with the Karachi sprint.
1)We've been building and putting MARV hubs into operation in three to six months.
We've been putting up phases of fortress towns almost as fast. Then there's arcologies.
And power stations.

GDI construction techniques are not in the league of the Scrin, but they are well practiced at building stuff from scratch.
Nor can we assume they are stuck with early 21st Cen building materials and techniques.I believe its been mentioned we have construction drones in play.

Even with modern day techniques and such, the Chinese have managed to put up ten thousand km of high speed rail in six or seven years.

2)Doing things slowly doesnt make it any less of a threat, it just stretches out the window of vulnerability during which the Brotherhood could attempt to do something about it.
That might lull a low level warlord operatiing out of set of shanty towns, but no middle rank or major warlord will fall for that.

3)I expect a lot of prefab work is going to come in from Arabia and Madagascar and South Africa.
We have the sealift, and if we devote the priority to getting it done, a lot of stuff will be done in parallel with each other.
In addition to that, expect to see a lot of the transport corridor to be built from the Himalayas heading towards Karachi.

Doesnt mean it will finish in three months, just that we can get a whole lot more done than you expect.
OTOH Vehrec, we are not threatening their core territories.
To be fair to Vehrec, we very much are.

However, we have been threatening their core territories for a long time. The Himalayas Blue Zone has been right where its been for decades and represents a chunk of industrial capacity and a forward staging point for GDI fprces. Everytime we've invested in improving logistics to that area, its been a threat to their core territories.

That has never stopped us before.
Allocating enough resources to "complete" the Karachi project in 3-6 months doesn't summon a fully formed 8 lane highway and major freight artery and world-class port from the aether when we get the last progress point, but it DOES mean the engineers have all the machinery and raw materials and funding to build it as fast as humanly possible.
^^^^
In addition to that? The Indian Ocean fleet is going to be tied up for the duration sanitizing the operating area against air and naval threats, and threatening the west Indian coast in order to force any ground counterattacks to either move slowly, or to force them to leave forces home to defend against sea assault.

The quicker we finish with Karachi, the quicker we can release almost all those ships back into offensive duty.

This also holds true for a chunk of the forces we intend to use in Pakistan, which will be coming out of our strategic reserve.
The smaller our free reserve is, the more likely people are to start shit.
But if the reserve is done quickly snd goes back into deserve, they are a threat

In the general case, you have a point.

In this specific case, I don't think this is the right move.

The escort carriers are something we've been told the navy wants heavily in the narration, not just in the "priority system." Furthermore, we've got a very real strategic problem with fleet carrier availability, and the carriers are a big part of our overall naval strategy when they're not hopelessly busy elsewhere.

For instance, think about the first stage, when we take Karachi, or rather, secure a beachhead in Pakistan. We're going to be air-dropping stuff in, doing amphibious landings on the coast... where is the air support coming from? Who's doing air raids to disrupt Nod positions on the coasts, supporting the first waves of troops to hit the dirt, and so on?

This is exactly the sort of thing the fleet carriers are almost certainly designed for, and we won't have as many of them as we'd like for the operation because they're spread out all over the world doing convoy escort and hunting subs and shit like that.

There's a very real reason the Navy asked us to do those, and asked us to do those first, and I think we should respect that priority.
A)Its in my opinion,
Escort carriers seem to be broadly multirole, but frigates?
Frigates are primarily defensive, which is why they are tagged Defensive.

B)Muscat, Oman to Karachi is 870km in a straight line.
I am going to rattle off the combat radius of two RL attack aircraft from the Cold War and one modern day plane for a comparison of what the combat ranges here might be like.

1)The 1972 era A-7E, which saw service in Vietnam and Desert Storm, with 6x500 pounds and 900 gallons of external fuel has a combat radius of between 513nmi/950km and 912nmi/1687km depending on flight profile.
2)The A-6 Intruder II, also a Vietnam War and Desert Storm plane, carrying 18x500 pounds of bombs and 600 gallons of external fuel, has a combat radius of between 403nmi/745km and 809 nmi/1496km depending on flight profile.
3)The F-35A on internal fuel has a combat radius of 669 nmi/1237km while carrying 2x AMRAAMs and 4000 pounds of JDAMs.

And thats before you account for the presence of aerial tankers over the Arabian Sea, far away from stealthed land-based SAMs or Venoms trying to hide in ground clutter to stage an ambush.

TLDR
Landbased air support is well within range. Thats in part why I was comfortable proposing that we go ahead with Karachi.
 
@Ithillid
1) what do you think about artificial pop growth via cloning or the use of iron wombs ? , like it seems extreme but by the time the mass effect sequel come the GDI's population is unlikely to be higher than at most a 2 billion compared to the hundreds of billions if not tens of trillions of the citadel races . the sheer staggering disparity in numbers might be enough to push the proposal through policy makers despite their concerns

2)what do you think about using Battletech for ideas for future mech designs and projects ? . like the GDI has almost every single piece of equivalent tech they use in their mechs from heatsinks(thank you Nod) , lasers(nod again) , particle weapons ,LRMS and SRMS (universal missile system for the win) to advanced EVA targeting systems and alloys for armor , the only missing tech that stops the GDI from building mechs like the ones we see in BattleTech is the lack of commercially viable fusion engines to power such demanding machines which we could probably achieve by the time the sequel quest rolls around


MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries on Steam
 
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1) what do you think about artificial pop growth via cloning or the use of iron wombs ? , like it seems extreme but by the time the mass effect sequel come the GDI's population is unlikely to be higher than at most a 2 billion compared to the hundreds of billions if not tens of trillions of the citadel races . the sheer staggering disparity in numbers might be enough to push the proposal through policy makers despite their concerns
It is something you are likely to do to some extent, but fundamentally there are limits to how fast you can grow populations without severe complications. You are unlikely to ever get great transition levels of population growth, even with the use of artificial wombs.

2)what do you think about using Battletech for ideas for future mech designs and projects ? . like the GDI has almost every single piece of equivalent tech they use in their mechs from heatsinks(thank you Nod) , lasers(nod again) , particle weapons ,LRMS and SRMS (universal missile system for the win) to advanced EVA targeting systems and alloys for armor , the only missing tech that stops the GDI from building mechs like the ones we see in BattleTech is the lack of commercially viable fusion engines to power such demanding machines which we could probably achieve by the time the sequel quest rolls around
I have made quite a number of references to Battletech already. The problem is mostly that you have not chosen to invest in mech projects.
 
Actually, I believe that after we finish all the fusion reactors, we will start working on miniaturized fusion reactors.
'Finish' is a word I don't think particularly applies here if you ask me. The demand for Fusion power on an industrial scale is going to remain for a long time. The more likely case here is that our SCIENCE institutions are already working on the problem and seeing what they might be able to do to improve things for our existing reactors, or the planned future phases. The Treasury will then be informed later when something is viable. I rather suspect that shipboard fusion power is the next step in miniatutization.
 
I think Vehrec raises some reasonable points. We are pretty much building on a NOD warlord's doorstep, and possibly more importantly, we are cutting off their transit routes to the Middle East and Europe.

Another question is how long the construction is actually going to take. We can assign enough resources and dice for Karachi 5 in one quarter, but can all the construction actually be done in that time?
For such a big project, I'd expect the construction time to spill over a bit into later quarters. Or attempting to rush it in one quarter will cost much more than normal.
 
Depends on how much we fund the Steel Talons. Unfortunately, so far we've only really been stringing them along.
Which is a darn shame in my book. We could really show up the Nod mechs with Battletech tier machines. Though we understandably been more focused on improving infrastructure, dealing with Tib and developing weapons we know work. Effective, but lacks fun Superweapons.
 
Depends on how much we fund the Steel Talons. Unfortunately, so far we've only really been stringing them along.
It's the downside of having a global military and same scale needs. The Steel Talons, while I do think they're worth the money for what we get out of their projects (including both military value and the RnD), they also get continually shafted in terms of priority as widely deploying 'good enough' designs is generally more impactful now than getting the Steel Talons a singular cutting edge design.
Which is a darn shame in my book. We could really show up the Nod mechs with Battletech tier machines. Though we understandably been more focused on improving infrastructure, dealing with Tib and developing weapons we know work. Effective, but lacks fun Superweapons.
We have too much shit on fire. Every service branch needs a massive infusion of money and effort to overhaul their capabilities for a global war. Hence why a political shitstorm over funding is always brewing, even if it's not right in our faces.
 
It's the downside of having a global military and same scale needs. The Steel Talons, while I do think they're worth the money for what we get out of their projects (including both military value and the RnD), they also get continually shafted in terms of priority as widely deploying 'good enough' designs is generally more impactful now than getting the Steel Talons a singular cutting edge design.
The problem is that the Steel Talons also help the rest of the military by being the R&D of the Initiative. So when we shaft them what we are really doing is shafting the R&D.
 
We only have shit on fire because we're pushing NOD. If we were playing "normal" GDI and playing smart we'd be more than fine with five die, the eight we have now would be enough to pull in the lead. It's only "on fire" because we're asking the military to do things they never expected to do before.
 
We have too much shit on fire. Every service branch needs a massive infusion of money and effort to overhaul their capabilities for a global war. Hence why a political shitstorm over funding is always brewing, even if it's not right in our faces.
We are putting a massively oversized amount of effort into helping out the military. The perception that everything is on fire is because of 3 factors:
1) we keep expanding and pushing the military to do more and more.
2) the military keeps asking for things we don't give them. Like shells. Or Orca refits.
3) The Treasury has given the military the impression that, in order to get what they want funded, they have to get hyperbolic.
 
I was gonna bring this up later, in the hopes that it would be talked about in thread, but... In the discussions in Discord, we were talking about how putting 22 dice on Karachi doesn't make it instantly appear. We can't build Rome in a day; even if we rolled high enough to complete the project in one turn, mechanically there would be a delay in getting the full benefits. Rather the difference between putting 13 dice on Karachi and 22 dice is that in the former, we're shipping in the supplies, labor, and effort to have Karachi built up to Phase 4. And we'll have to continue to move in more material and such to enable Phase 5 to be done. While with the latter, we're putting in enough supplies etc. right away to get the entire thing done by the on-site engineers and such.

Basically, it's the difference between telling the people on the ground "we're funding Phase 4 and might fund Phase 5 later on" and saying "we want the entire thing built, here's everything you need to do so."

There's also the military component. The more dice we pony up, the more we're also funding the military to take the area and support the Planned City getting built. Less dice -> less military commitment -> bigger chance a NOD attack interferes somehow.

All that said, "only" 13 dice is still a massive commitment and likely runs into the same issues. There's only so fast concrete can dry, and all.
Yeah, but the thing is... 14 dice and 260 R in one turn still represents a huge investment.

GDI's total quarterly income is about 1800 R. In a year that's 7200 R. We're talking about dropping 3.5% or more of our entire globe-spanning national GDP on this one project in three months, even at 13 dice.

I think that's enough to draw just about everything that can be spared from the military, and leave no one in doubt of our commitment to fully fund the project. Like... what would 20-22 even entail? Is there some possibility of us overdoing it and getting a "you're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!" with the diversion of military effort being so excessive that it creates weaknesses elsewhere? I know this is a speculative concern...

But I don't think it's a straightforward case of "more dice equal more of everything in Karachi, we need maximal investment in Karachi more than we need anything else, so we should invest maximal dice in Karachi at all costs to maximize our chance of success."
 
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