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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Personally, I'd like to know to see what we are and aren't getting. However, if the thread agrees that it we don't want to see it then I'm fine with that. Just post it after the gatcha is no longer available.
 
Alo357 said:
Personally, I'd like to know to see what we are and aren't getting. However, if the thread agrees that it we don't want to see it then I'm fine with that. Just post it after the gatcha is no longer available.
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I don't think this is an issue "the thread" really can agree on. There's a group that wants to know and a group that doesn't. We could maybe put it to a proper vote, but this in-discussion thing is a poor approximation one.
 
Show or no show I really do not mind Ether way.

Might be interesting info could be saly producing info. Do whatever you think is right.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I don't think this is an issue "the thread" really can agree on. There's a group that wants to know and a group that doesn't. We could maybe put it to a proper vote, but this in-discussion thing is a poor approximation one.
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Yeah, we're probably unlikely to reach any sort of agreement but really it's up to Ithillid. I suppose a vote would work to gain consensus but we'll see how Ithillid feels.
 
So, I was thinking on it, and here's a Q4 plan based on the idea of committing to do Karachi Q1-Q2 of 2061, not 2060. Mostly because I got tired of people complaining about the Navy not getting any more hulls out for a while.
Essentially, the plan is still putting a lot of dice into Military to get ready for the upcoming upswing in attacks, but with the plan to work on building shipyards in time to hopefully have either Escort Carriers or Frigates coming off the slipways by the time we do start Karachi, because there's a decent chance that will start TibWar4.

Plan Prep for Karachi 2061
Infrastructure 6 dice +33 80R
-[] Integrated Cargo System 695/800 2 dice 30R 97%
-[] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 3) 25/200 3 dice 60R 97%
-[] Security Review
Heavy Industry 5 dice +28 100R 2 Free Dice
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 4+5) 76/300 5 dice 100R Phase 4 99.9%, Phase 5 4%
-[] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 1) 0/160 1 die 20R
-[] Hover Chassis Development (New) 0/60 1 die 20R 89%
Light and Chemical Industry 5 dice +23 50R
-[] Blue Zone Light Industrial Sectors (Phase 1) 0/250 4 dice 40R 84.2%
-[] Civilian Glider Development 0/40 1 die 10R 100%
Agriculture 4 dice +23 40R
-[] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 3) 207/350 2 dice 20R 67.6%
-[] Wadmalaw Kudzu Plantations (Phase 1) (New) 0/150 2 dice 20R 52%
Tiberium 7 dice +36 130R
-[] Offshore Tiberium Harvester Stations (Phase 3) 67/200 2 dice 40R 90%
-[] Liquid Tiberium Power Cell Deployment (Phase 1) 41/140 1 die 20R 53%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Red Zone-6) 0/120 1 die 30R 32%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Red Zone-7) 0/120 1 die 30R 32%
-[] Railgun Harvester Factories (Maputo) 0/70 1 die 10R 82%
-[] Security Review
Orbital Industry 6 dice +23 120R
-[] Lunar Heavy Metals Mines (Phase 1) 0/395 6 dice 120R 80.3%
Services 5 dice +28 70R
-[] Prosthetics Deployment Initiatives (Phase 4) 146/320 2 dice 40R 63.4%
-[] Domestic Animal Programs 0/200 3 dice 30R 83.8%
Military 8 dice +25 260R 5 Free Dice
-[] Long Range Sensor System Deployment (Phase 2) 118/300 2 dice 50R 36%
-[] Orca Refit Deployment 151/200 1 die 15R 92%
-[] Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations (Phase 1) 55/220 3 dice 60R 97%
-[] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 2) 105/200 1 die 15R 46%
-[] Shell Plants (Phase 5) 27/150 2 dice 20R 84%
-[] Ablat Plating Deployment (Stage 4) 45/200 2 dice 20R 60.8%
-[] Escort Carrier Development 0/40 1 die 15R 100%
-[] Shark Class Frigate Development 0/40 1 die 15R 100%
Bureaucracy 4 dice +23
-[] Security Reviews: Infrastructure DC50 1 die 89%
-[] Security Reviews: Tiberium DC50 2 dice 100%
-[] Interdepartmental Favors 1 die auto

850/860R
 
Voidseer said:
If you pulled some of the lunar mines so as to build Columbia to stage 2 this would have my vote. I love that we are finally seriously considering getting the Escort Carriers, I might even vote for this without the Columbia.
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I thought of a variant that actually just pulls a couple more free dice off of military to go for Enterprise Phase 4, because that will help with ORSCT - that project needs Enterprise's manufacturing to restock. And, it would both let us see what Enterprise's bays can hold, and give an immediate +2 CapGoods.
 
Lightwhispers said:
Plan Prep for Karachi 2061
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It looks like a decent plan but I'm completely opposed to delaying Karachi for a year. I think the last thing we want to do is give Nod enough time to start the upcoming conflict in full, possibly with some kind of masterstroke. A spoiling attack into karachi is IMO the best way of starting the fight and spoiling attacks are useless when the enemy is already ready for them
 
Noddies are, in fact, aware that GDI have been putting in 10-15 dice into Military for a bit.

Old "10 dice is enough to start and win 4th Tiberium war on GDI's terms" been confirmed to still be true, and this is also something noddies are also aware of.

So, yeah, they are probably preparing to do something soon.
 
Void Stalker said:
Edit updated list based on feedback. Also note thanks to Seo trait we cannot get less than a 6 for tech rolled which means 5 NOD and 4 Scirin (since we have the #5 tech) will not be rolled in addition to the ones we have picked up.
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This isn't true, actually, because of how results above 100 work - any time a final result lands above 100 either due to the +5 or from shifting up due to techs already taken, you get the highest remaining tech and a second, bonus tech taken from "(final result) - 100" on the table.

As an example, a roll of 99 would turn into 104 with Seo's bonus, which would award us techs 100 and 4.
 
So, like, I've got some...issues with the Karachi sprint. Let's do the straightforward one: Rome wasn't built in a day, and concrete doesn't cure overnight. Look at the reconstruction of the Oroville Dam spillway for an example of this-even working with Roller Compacted Concrete designed to cure as fast and with as little heat as possible, they still barely got the spillway into low level operational condition between May and November of 2017. We're talking about a LOT more concrete than that-we won't complete the city in six months, hell, I don't know if we can complete the roads or rails in six months.


View: https://youtu.be/ekUROM87vTA

My second issue is that I'm worried that slamming out Karachi too fast will do the opposite of 'boiling the frog' and instead sear the cat, causing NOD to scream and leap and over-react to our actions. I'm worried, in other words, that the Indian warlords and the atomic shah might perceive a full-court press following our heavy military buildup (30 dice in 2 turns, when ten dice in 1 turn is 'take over the world levels') as an existential threat worthy of breaking out their full strategic nuclear arsenal, and going full MAD on nearby bluezones before they lose their nuclear launch options. A bad outcome of this is the loss of the Arabian and Himalayan blue zones-a worst-case scenario is a general nuclear bottle popping off, with shadow teams delivering backpack nukes globally, both Kane and the GDI directors watching in horror as the world ends. I don't know what the odds of this kind of MAD exchange provoked by us stepping in too hard would be, but it does worry me badly.
 
OTOH Vehrec, we are not threatening their core territories.

Would they worry? Sure, they would. They can see what a threat Karachi can be as a base. But GDI basically build up and up and up and... spend it on securing a key territory by making a fevered effort to secure a logistics zone through useful, but not that useful Nod territory, where Nod's manufacturing and political heartlands aren't threatened all that much.

Breaking out the canned sunshine beyond the usual is just not needed for them, they can coordinate and strangle GDI's efforts over time. Would it take a decade? Sure. Let it. It's cheaper than going at GDI without restraint, because Nod isn't the only guys with WMDs, and GDI can just level India or Iran if they want to, too.
 
Vehrec said:
So, like, I've got some...issues with the Karachi sprint. Let's do the straightforward one: Rome wasn't built in a day, and concrete doesn't cure overnight. Look at the reconstruction of the Oroville Dam spillway for an example of this-even working with Roller Compacted Concrete designed to cure as fast and with as little heat as possible, they still barely got the spillway into low level operational condition between May and November of 2017. We're talking about a LOT more concrete than that-we won't complete the city in six months, hell, I don't know if we can complete the roads or rails in six months.
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I was gonna bring this up later, in the hopes that it would be talked about in thread, but... In the discussions in Discord, we were talking about how putting 22 dice on Karachi doesn't make it instantly appear. We can't build Rome in a day; even if we rolled high enough to complete the project in one turn, mechanically there would be a delay in getting the full benefits. Rather the difference between putting 13 dice on Karachi and 22 dice is that in the former, we're shipping in the supplies, labor, and effort to have Karachi built up to Phase 4. And we'll have to continue to move in more material and such to enable Phase 5 to be done. While with the latter, we're putting in enough supplies etc. right away to get the entire thing done by the on-site engineers and such.

Basically, it's the difference between telling the people on the ground "we're funding Phase 4 and might fund Phase 5 later on" and saying "we want the entire thing built, here's everything you need to do so."

There's also the military component. The more dice we pony up, the more we're also funding the military to take the area and support the Planned City getting built. Less dice -> less military commitment -> bigger chance a NOD attack interferes somehow.

All that said, "only" 13 dice is still a massive commitment and likely runs into the same issues. There's only so fast concrete can dry, and all.
Vehrec said:
My second issue is that I'm worried that slamming out Karachi too fast will do the opposite of 'boiling the frog' and instead sear the cat, causing NOD to scream and leap and over-react to our actions. I'm worried, in other words, that the Indian warlords and the atomic shah might perceive a full-court press following our heavy military buildup (30 dice in 2 turns, when ten dice in 1 turn is 'take over the world levels') as an existential threat worthy of breaking out their full strategic nuclear arsenal, and going full MAD on nearby bluezones before they lose their nuclear launch options. A bad outcome of this is the loss of the Arabian and Himalayan blue zones-a worst-case scenario is a general nuclear bottle popping off, with shadow teams delivering backpack nukes globally, both Kane and the GDI directors watching in horror as the world ends. I don't know what the odds of this kind of MAD exchange provoked by us stepping in too hard would be, but it does worry me badly.
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We can't 'boil the frog' for too long, or the frog will pull out a Masterstroke and reverse many of our advantages. We can't perfectly defend against NOD no matter how much time we spend shoving dice into the military. When the 4th war starts, NOD will hurt us, and we can't prevent that. The only winning option is to take the fight to NOD, spoil their Masterstroke buildup, drive them into hiding, and try to steal their populace with shiny arcologies and uncontaminated food and water.
 
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Allocating enough resources to "complete" the Karachi project in 3-6 months doesn't summon a fully formed 8 lane highway and major freight artery and world-class port from the aether when we get the last progress point, but it DOES mean the engineers have all the machinery and raw materials and funding to build it as fast as humanly possible. We're not the Stalinist USSR so I'm not worried about our engineers pouring the concrete too fast and getting a sub-par product or anything, if they tell us "hey boss we literally can't go any faster than this" the response is "ok cool just keep it up" instead of "go to gulag" so I trust in our underlings' basic competence.

The logistics and housing will roll in at whatever rate Ithillid decides is more reasonable for the physical infrastructure to get constructed, but I still think there's value in pre-allocating all the resources they'll need so the project can go as fast as possible. Especially if we're expecting to have to deal with the fallout after we kick the hornet's nest, just having the project cleared and the engineers working and the Treasury no longer having to worry about it besides the waiting is a good place to be. Then we can pivot all our dice and budget to focus solely on getting ahead of the aftershocks instead of having to manage them while ALSO worrying about continuing to fund Karachi's construction.
 
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Yeah I expect a spike in health and housing requirements to accompany the inevitable military fires that will pop up after we drop 4 phases of fortress on land between 2 major nod powers
 
Hazard said:
OTOH Vehrec, we are not threatening their core territories.

Would they worry? Sure, they would. They can see what a threat Karachi can be as a base. But GDI basically build up and up and up and... spend it on securing a key territory by making a fevered effort to secure a logistics zone through useful, but not that useful Nod territory, where Nod's manufacturing and political heartlands aren't threatened all that much.

Breaking out the canned sunshine beyond the usual is just not needed for them, they can coordinate and strangle GDI's efforts over time. Would it take a decade? Sure. Let it. It's cheaper than going at GDI without restraint, because Nod isn't the only guys with WMDs, and GDI can just level India or Iran if they want to, too.
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There's no reason to expect we aren't threatening their core territories, since we don't know where they are for the Indian faction. New Delhi is pretty close to our new expansion, after all, and these guys are used to having a lot of strategic depth. The Karachi hub is able to supply huge amounts of logistics, perfect for a major buildup and attack. We're also gonna have to push in a massive guard force which, to NOD might well appear to be an offensively oriented force. Moreover, the speed of the advance is more in line with an attack than a series of fortifications and defensive lines being erected.

Even if they assume it's just a bite-and-hold offensive, it's still a vastly bigger threat to their heartlands than they've ever faced before, and extreme options are on the table. What level of uncanning sunshine being on the table do you expect? Even 5% risk of a 'limited' nuclear attack on the blue zones feels bad to me.

Derpmind said:
I was gonna bring this up later, in the hopes that it would be talked about in thread, but... In the discussions in Discord, we were talking about how putting 22 dice on Karachi doesn't make it instantly appear. We can't build Rome in a day; even if we rolled high enough to complete the project in one turn, mechanically there would be a delay in getting the full benefits. Rather the difference between putting 13 dice on Karachi and 22 dice is that in the former, we're shipping in the supplies, labor, and effort to have Karachi built up to Phase 4. And we'll have to continue to move in more material and such to enable Phase 5 to be done. While with the latter, we're putting in enough supplies etc. right away to get the entire thing done by the on-site engineers and such.

Basically, it's the difference between telling the people on the ground "we're funding Phase 4 and might fund Phase 5 later on" and saying "we want the entire thing built, here's everything you need to do so."

There's also the military component. The more dice we pony up, the more we're also funding the military to take the area and support the Planned City getting built. Less dice -> less military commitment -> bigger chance a NOD attack interferes somehow.

All that said, "only" 13 dice is still a massive commitment and likely runs into the same issues. There's only so fast concrete can dry, and all.
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Even 13 dice is pretty damn fast for my taste, since it's effectively similar just differing in having an end that is fat instead of tapering off. But a 20-22 dice plan is really fat and very dangerous to my eyes, because it portends ill tidings for the enemy, since they have no way to know the thread are just memeing on them.

We can't 'boil the frog' for too long, or the frog will pull out a Masterstroke and reverse many of our advantages. We can't perfectly defend against NOD no matter how much time we spend shoving dice into the military. When the 4th war starts, NOD will hurt us, and we can't prevent that. The only winning option is to take the fight to NOD, spoil their Masterstroke buildup, drive them into hiding, and try to steal their populace with shiny arcologies and uncontaminated food and water.
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Okay, see there's only one NOD commander that has Masterstroke powers, and we haven't seen him in a while. Your plan is to start the fourth war on GDI's terms, to take the fight to NOD and to 'steal their populace and drive them into hiding'. You're proving them right-Karachi is an existential threat, a sign of a resurgent GDI that they need to act to stop with whatever is neccessary, lest they be killed, mutinied against, or find themselves in the Hauge before a GDI court. Reverse your thinking here Derpmind, and ask yourself what NOD should be willing to do to stop this from happening?
 
If we are intending on phase 5 Karachi then NOD's reaction is the same whether we slow roll or fast roll it. Because there is a hard limit to how much our engineers can build the extra resources are merely allocated to storage as they build more. If we use 13 dice to build up to phase 3 and then use another 13 dice to build up to phase 5 the end result is the same as if we 22 diced Karachi. Any NOD warlord getting intimidated would be intimidated the same amount. The only difference between 22 dice and 13 dice Karachi is how much security we put on Karachi while it is being finished.

Edit: Either way, whether we slow or fast roll it I think the odds of getting nuked are the same.
 
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Vehrec said:
Okay, see there's only one NOD commander that has Masterstroke powers, and we haven't seen him in a while. Your plan is to start the fourth war on GDI's terms, to take the fight to NOD and to 'steal their populace and drive them into hiding'. You're proving them right-Karachi is an existential threat, a sign of a resurgent GDI that they need to act to stop with whatever is neccessary, lest they be killed, mutinied against, or find themselves in the Hauge before a GDI court. Reverse your thinking here Derpmind, and ask yourself what NOD should be willing to do to stop this from happening?
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NOD's already facing extinction. The massive expansion of the uninhabitable Red Zones has drastically cut down on their territory. And we're clearly outpacing them in economic and military buildup. Karachi or not, they're going to have to go on the attack sooner or later. They can see the doom charts, same as we can.

What's the alternative? We build massive amounts of RZ abatement and lower our military spending, in the hopes that NOD will be happy to back off for a while? How much time would that buy us, really? Especially since Kane's got his own plans, and I doubt given our relative positions currently he's going to go straight for amicable negotiations to build the TCN with us.
 
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Also, to the extent that NOD achieved their goals in the last couple Tiberium Wars, it's because they sucker-punched us and then ran about that far before we caught back up.

I'm game to risk a knee-jerk reaction if it keeps NOD off-balance and reacting to us when they should be getting all their ducks in a row.
 
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