Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
So, last minute plan differences, no commentary added:
First column is (Lightwhispers') Plan Save Moneys, with more SCIENCE!
Second column is (Simon_Jester's) Plan Attempting to Have Banks In Chicago)
First column is (Lightwhispers') Plan Save Moneys, with more SCIENCE!
Second column is (Simon_Jester's) Plan Attempting to Have Banks In Chicago)
Net resource/dice difference: 80 R, 2 free dice
| Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 9) (Updated) 82/160 1 die 10R 70% | Chicago Planned City (Phase 4) 3/550 (6 dice + HI die, 120 R) (71% chance) |
| Communal Housing Experiments (New) 0/150 2 dice 20R 82% | |
| Green Architecture Risk Assessment and Testing (New) 0/90 1 die 10R 63% |
Net resource/dice difference: 20 R, 1 free die
| Chicago Planned City Phase 4 (1 die, 20 R) (see above) |
Net resource/dice difference: 0R
| Isolinear Peripherals Development (New) 0/160 1 die 10R | Artificial Wood Development 0/60 (1 die, 10 R) (85% chance) |
Net resource/dice difference: 15 R
| Vertical Farming Projects (Stage 2) 65/240 2 dice 30R 40% | Vertical Farming Projects (Stage 2) 65/240 (3 dice, 45R) (89% chance, less if progress decay) |
| Security Review |
Net resource/dice difference: -20R, Erewhon, -2 free dice
| Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 2) 5/195 2 dice 40R 54% | |
| Liquid Tiberium Power Cell Deployment (Phase 1) 41/140 1 die 20R 56% | Liquid Tiberium Power Cells (Phase 1+2) 41/280 (2 dice, 40 R) (99% Phase 1, 15% Phase 2) (-5/?? PS from Phase 1/2) |
| Venusian Tiberium Studies 95/120 1 die 25R 100% | Venusian Tiberium Studies 95/120 (E die, 25 R) (91% chance) |
Net resource/dice difference: -50R, -Erewhon, -1 free die
| Station Bay 0/400 3 dice + Erewhon 80R 6% | Station Bay 0/400 (3 dice, 60 R) (3/5 median) |
| Leopard II Factory 0/350 4 dice 80R 32% | Leopard II Factory 0/350 (3 dice, 60 R) (2% chance) |
| Orbital Cleanup (Stage 11) 32/85 1 die 10R 89% |
Net resource/dice difference: -5R
| Specialist Isolinear Programming Development (New) 0/120 1 die 20R 28% | Hallucinogen Research 0/60 (1 die, 15 R) (88% chance) |
Net resource/dice difference: 30R, 1 free die
| ASAT Defense System (Phase 4) 36/220 3 dice 60R 93% | ASAT Defense System (Phase 4) 36/220 (4 dice, 80 R) (99.9% with Seo bonus) |
| Zrbite Sonic Weapons Development 0/60 1 die 20R 87% | |
| Sparkle Shield Module 0/120 1 die 30R 27% | Sparkle Shield Module 0/120 (2 dice, 60 R) (91% chance) |
Net resource/dice difference: 100R
| Security Review Agriculture 100% 2 dice | Banking Reforms (-100 R) 1 die |
| [spare] |
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- Location
- USA
Doesn't Simon's do political favors in bureaucracy?
- Location
- Zvornik
[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago
First, I am very sure that Treasury getting +20 RpT next turn will be much more impactful than the rest of the GDI getting +20 RpT spread across all other programs. Money concentration has its own power, so one could say that it is being wasted by being spread. Second, if there's a concern about the rest of the GDI getting money, you'd think the program to actually give money to the rest of the GDI - to all citizens, not just the governmental agencies - in form of banks would take precedence.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It looks like @Lightwhispers made more changes to his plan, namely adding in the Interdeparmental Favors and Political Promises actions, but still hasn't gotten around to making a post about those changes yet. The plan's Bureaucracy section looks like this now:
Bureaucracy 4 dice +24
-[] Security Reviews (Agriculture) DC50 0/50 2 dice 100%
-[] Interdepartmental Favors
--[] Steel Talons: Deploy Medium Tactical Plasma Weapons: +5 Political Support
--[] Air Force: Deploy Orca Wingman Drones before the end of next plan: +5 Political Support
--[] Department of Education: Deploy Services AEVA : +5 political Support
--[] Erewhon: Complete North Boston Phase 5: +5 Political Support
-[] Make Political Promises (Updated)
--[] FMP: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in Next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Market Socialist: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in next Plan: +2d6 steps.
--[] Homeland Party: Complete 2+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +3d6 steps.
--[] Reclamation Party: Complete 3+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Biodiversity Party: Compete Dairy Ranching Domes phase 2 by end of next plan: 1d10 steps.
This isn't you doing an etiquette breach or something objectively wrong. But it's disconcerting to try and argue against someone who is essentially at an olympic athlete level of ability at forum posting. And you by yourself raise the barrier to entry for thread participation here, both for casual posts and high-effort ones. I know many people who are easily quite active in other threads but hesitate to make any posts here because they know that regardless of the merits of their own arguments, they simply can't keep up with you.
Bureaucracy 4 dice +24
-[] Security Reviews (Agriculture) DC50 0/50 2 dice 100%
-[] Interdepartmental Favors
--[] Steel Talons: Deploy Medium Tactical Plasma Weapons: +5 Political Support
--[] Air Force: Deploy Orca Wingman Drones before the end of next plan: +5 Political Support
--[] Department of Education: Deploy Services AEVA : +5 political Support
--[] Erewhon: Complete North Boston Phase 5: +5 Political Support
-[] Make Political Promises (Updated)
--[] FMP: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in Next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Market Socialist: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in next Plan: +2d6 steps.
--[] Homeland Party: Complete 2+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +3d6 steps.
--[] Reclamation Party: Complete 3+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Biodiversity Party: Compete Dairy Ranching Domes phase 2 by end of next plan: 1d10 steps.
You can't fool me, Mr. Realsurname.(My real surname is not, of course, Realsurname)
It's unfair because you are basically superhuman. You write lengthy posts in reply to nearly every point of discussion, every day. Just reading along to keep up with all of your posts in this thread is more work than keeping up with similar arguments between multiple people in other quests, because compared to the output of multiple people combined in a heated discussion, you by yourself outnumber that in both wordcount and persistence. This on top of doing high-effort posts in many other threads elsewhere, constantly. As a fellow Terminally Online person, I'd need to clone myself five times to emulate your posting style in this thread alone, never mind forum-wide.
This isn't you doing an etiquette breach or something objectively wrong. But it's disconcerting to try and argue against someone who is essentially at an olympic athlete level of ability at forum posting. And you by yourself raise the barrier to entry for thread participation here, both for casual posts and high-effort ones. I know many people who are easily quite active in other threads but hesitate to make any posts here because they know that regardless of the merits of their own arguments, they simply can't keep up with you.
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- Location
- USA
I believe these are the same in Simon's plan as well.
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X]Plan Save Moneys, with more SCIENCE!
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If it's any consolation, my free time is rather seasonal because of the nature of my work.
I don't know, though. I feel a little weird because internally, hearing this feels like someone saying "Person A, you need to stop talking and let Persons B, C, and D tell you you're wrong."
My natural response is "but why shouldn't I disagree tho." I'll try to find a way to be less... exasperatingly Simony, I guess?
Uh... Save Money skips the banking reforms. That's like +100 R right there. I'm flattered that you're speaking on my behalf, but I don't know what you're talking about here.
I do agree that it's a bad idea to do pretty much any +RpT action in tiberium right now apart from Red Zone Border Offensives, mind you.
As I see it, the argument against doing vein mining right now isn't so much "it wastes Resources" as "it invests Capital Goods unwisely." I'm a bit anxious about keeping our Capital Goods total high, especially if (as per Lightwhispers' plan) we're not likely to start work on Chicago any time soon. We may have to do a loooot of vein mining in the near future.
So a phase of vein mines whose proceeds can't be reinvested back into the Treasury economy and turned into increased Capital Goods production seems... problematic... to me. If it was me, I'd consolidate all 'mining' Tiberium dice on Red Zone Border Offensives.
This this this.
We actually got a fair number of complaints about things like mattresses and shoes for people with somewhat nonstandard feet, if I recall the GDIOnline Civil Satisfaction Surveys correctly. But more broadly, yes, we have a problem with a lot of the small stuff not happening properly, and the civilian sector is a lot better suited to handling that than Treasury's state-owned enterprises.
And while we can get that to happen without banking, it'll happen a good deal faster and better with the banking reforms. There's a good reason pretty much every industrialized nation with a functional economy has a robust and modern banking system.
Real talk, we're not looking at "a" phase of vein mining next turn, in all probability. I'm pretty sure we're looking at several phases. 2062Q1 plans are likely to look very meme-planny, focusing on a fourteen-die investment in various forms of tiberium mining and then building the rest of the plan around that.
Yes.
They are.
I do find it very strange.
Not long ago, a lot of people who were strongly in favor of Treasury being 'generous' by ensuring that we do all in our power to complete major +RpT projects like Tendrils Phase 2, even at considerable expense. Because the rest of GDI's government is legitimate and needs money too.
But now, quite a few of these people are against Treasury being 'generous' by taking funds it could theoretically save to open up some more state-owned enterprises and setting them up as the nucleus of a banking system that is likely to have significant positive effects on the civilian economy.
Who are just as real and whose needs are just as legitimate as "other GDI departments." Because the civilian economy is... well, GDI's whole population.
Technically, the 'Save Money...' plan uses 2 free dice (that instead would have went to Chicago) to get a better than even chance of 20-35 additional income (more if we include the harvesting claws autocompleting this turn) for reallocation. And if it doesn't, we'll be in position to finish it off next turn with a single die.
We basically have an infinite amount of vein mines available and, thanks to distributed manufacturing, can currently afford three phases of them per turn in perpetuity. Everyone wants 14 dice in tib next turn, so (Lightwhispers') 'Save money...' plan is actually better for us on an income standpoint, even if the rest of the GDI threw the extra income into a money pit and burned it (they have better uses for it than that).
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The opportunity cost of not spending those dice on a plan goal is real, though. We will need to invest those dice into Chicago sooner or later and doing so sooner instead of spending them on the mine that will "lose" most of its income if it completes feels suboptimal to me.
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I have left off one line from your Political Promises. Because it's grey, has big ears, and a long nose.
I will admit, my inclusion of Vein Mines is not purely for the income - it's also due to my (perhaps unfounded) idea that we need to start working ASAP on getting ahead of underground Tiberium. And yes, we are very likely to do a lot of that next turn. But it seems to me that having at least more of an idea of the extent, will be helpful going into Reallocation.
This may be as much of my white whale* as Banking Reforms has been Simon's - based as much on a feeling as anything, but I feel it is important to get a head start on it.
*not meant pejoratively, rather that it's something where the disagreement is based on a premise that is very hard to argue.
Fair points. But keep in mind that phase four of Chicago (at 74% CoS) costs 140 (20 RPD x 7 dice) Resources. I'd rather do it around year 2, where 20 R per die doesn't mean having to offline multiple dice next turn. And those dice can be put towards apartments/tib mining, which both helps with our refugees (encouraging more, and thus depriving Nod of future workers, scientists, and soldiers), and gets us more permanent income during a cash-starved time.
Even if the projected income was only a quarter of what it will be, that seems like a pretty solid win to me.
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Speaking personally, it's because I was wrong. My opinions on all this has changed. I was resigned to us not being able to activate all our dice in Q1, and made a lot of assumptions from that. If we can't activate all our dice anyways, then why not just eat that painful penalty and give a bit more money to other parts of GDI? Then Lightwhisper's analysis proved that we can activate all our dice next turn. And I realized that a lot of my previous assumptions and opinions were wrong. Based off what I see now, I believe I was way too aggressive about distributing our money, to the point we could end up actively hurting ourselves and our ability to do useful work. When we simply don't have to do that.
Besides, the way it's worked out, the extra income from Tendrils is still going to go to the rest of GDI, and we can save enough resources from that project to go into Q1 without deactivating all our dice. We can have our cake and eat it too... or we can put the cake in a box and not be allowed to eat it anymore. And I'm hungry. (Maybe it would have been better to do the reverse - do the Banking Reforms but save the Tiberium Harvesters for next year. But it's too late to go back and do it that way.)
In my opinion, we will be able to drop enough line items during the reallocation that even after doing banks and Chicago we will have enough income to drop few, if any, dice.
[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
-[] Interdepartmental Favors
--[] Steel Talons: Deploy Medium Tactical Plasma Weapons: +5 Political Support
--[] Air Force: Deploy Orca Wingman Drones before the end of next plan: +5 Political Support
--[] Department of Education: Deploy Services AEVA : +5 political Support
--[] Erewhon: Complete North Boston Phase 5: +5 Political Support
-[] Make Political Promises (Updated)
--[] FMP: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in Next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Market Socialist: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in next Plan: +2d6 steps.
--[] Homeland Party: Complete 2+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +3d6 steps.
--[] Reclamation Party: Complete 3+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Biodiversity Party: Compete Dairy Ranching Domes phase 2 by end of next plan: 1d10 steps.
I'm not seeing it, unless you mean my joke-line against the Initiative First offer, which doesn't show up on the tally because it's a [].
Well, I can say that this is one of the most... relaxing... reasons to be disagreed with that I can recall in quite a long time.
Thank you for clearing that up.
Though personally I still intend to fight for as many dice of funding as I can; I simply think the banking reforms are actually necessary and fulfill an important goal, just as surely as some four-die 25 R/die megaproject like the hospital expansions would. If I was willing to spend dice on the hospitals, I must perforce be willing to spend R on the banks.
--[] Steel Talons: Deploy Medium Tactical Plasma Weapons: +5 Political Support
--[] Air Force: Deploy Orca Wingman Drones before the end of next plan: +5 Political Support
--[] Department of Education: Deploy Services AEVA : +5 political Support
--[] Erewhon: Complete North Boston Phase 5: +5 Political Support
-[] Make Political Promises (Updated)
--[] FMP: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in Next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Market Socialist: Complete Electric Vehicle Factory in next Plan: +2d6 steps.
--[] Homeland Party: Complete 2+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +3d6 steps.
--[] Reclamation Party: Complete 3+ BZ Inhibitors by end of next Plan: +1d6 steps.
--[] Biodiversity Party: Compete Dairy Ranching Domes phase 2 by end of next plan: 1d10 steps.
[reviews tally]
I'm not seeing it, unless you mean my joke-line against the Initiative First offer, which doesn't show up on the tally because it's a [].
I'm not sure how much it'll help. It's likely that Vein Mines Stage 2 will concentrate on more known underground tiberium mining. It's not a purely exploratory operation the way Tiberium Prospecting was back during the Second Four Year Plan.
I suspect that you're right, but don't want to promise it since I don't know how line item dropping works mechanically yet.
...Ah.
Well, I can say that this is one of the most... relaxing... reasons to be disagreed with that I can recall in quite a long time.
Thank you for clearing that up.
Though personally I still intend to fight for as many dice of funding as I can; I simply think the banking reforms are actually necessary and fulfill an important goal, just as surely as some four-die 25 R/die megaproject like the hospital expansions would. If I was willing to spend dice on the hospitals, I must perforce be willing to spend R on the banks.
That was sort of what I was trying to say. Sorry I wasn't very good at getting that across.
😞😔Well, it costs 5-15 PS per item, so I suppose it's literally just "pay PS cost depending on what budget you take, how supported you are and how many items you are dropping, drop as many as you paid for".
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah. The question is what the exchange rate is.
It may be more cost-effective to just lobby for 30% GDP. As far as the rest of the government is concerned... There's little or no functional difference between us lobbying for 25% GDP and getting 550 RpT from the general budget, but spinning off 110 RpT worth of line items, versus our lobbying for 30% GDP and getting 660 RpT from the general budget, but spinning off no line items. So whichever of those two options costs less Political Support is, from my perspective, more attractive.
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Weird compliment, but I'm cool with it.
The way I figure it, by taking Banking Reforms we'll have to give up less budget and/or spin off more Bureaus in Reallocation to afford dice in Q1 than if we didn't. And that means significantly less RpT for GDI over the next four years, yet also having done the Banking Reforms a year earlier than otherwise. They're roughtly equivalent, but I don't think that evens out, and that delaying the Banking Reforms would benefit to GDI more overall.
Well, it would allow us to modulate how much we take. 5% steps are pretty big, but with line items, we can end up with something like effectively taking 27% of the budget. Though paying PS to take less resources would feel pretty strange.