On the other hand, any resources we save prior to reallocation can be used afterwards.
Saving some resources now might allow us to activate more dice next year.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Saving some resources now might allow us to activate more dice next year.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Dice cost analysis updated to post Q1 2061, also I cleaned out a bunch of the cobwebs that had built up so now it should be slightly closer to the mark.
EDIT:
View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dVIvOs8jKH-Eaid_lVYBo9Xb9fm0ShMW2I1sYhVXeqc/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks to @Derpmind for pointing out the errors.
EDIT:
View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dVIvOs8jKH-Eaid_lVYBo9Xb9fm0ShMW2I1sYhVXeqc/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks to @Derpmind for pointing out the errors.
Last edited:
- Location
- Wall Gazing
Having slept on it, I have come to the position that our Plan Goals have a problem. Without Free Dice investment we aren't going to finish some of our Plan Goals by the end of Q3 and therefore we will almost certainly need to over invest in Q4 to guarantee that we meet them.
From my previous Preliminary Required Dice analysis, these are our required dice:
However, that is assuming we are fine with on average finishing in Q4. That means for those categories that have no or next to no remaining dice (Agriculture, Orbital, and Military), we are left in the situation where in Q4 we will need over investment to ensure they complete.
If we wanted to on average finish in Q3, which I think is a good idea, and if we were committed to Chicago, No CRP, and Seattle as Alternatives and Unofficial Plan Goals we have:
From that analysis we can on average finish all of our Plan Goals in Q3, but just barely if we also use AA dice. In order to do that we have to monofocus on those Plan Goals with no Free dice assigned outside of Agriculture, Orbtial, or Military. And nothing done inside those three categories, along with Heavy Industry, that doesn't advance our Plan Goals. Further, if we agree to delay ASAT to Q4 and commit to over invest in it as it does have an overflow and it would save R in the long run to over invest in ASAT as the RpD cost increases with Phase 5, AA dice aren't needed to get us there.
To that end:
Draft Plan: Plan Goal Sprint
Infrastructure 6/6 Dice 120 R
-[] Chicago Planned City (Phase 4) 3/550 (6 Dice, 120 R) (76% chance) (see Heavy Industry)
Heavy Industry 5/5 Dice + 1 AA Die 150 R
-[] Chicago Planned City (Phase 4) 3/550 (1 Die, 20 R) (see Infrastructure)
-[] Isolinear Chip Foundry Anadyr 258/320 (1 Die, 50 R) (83% chance)
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) 243/300 (1 + AA Dice, 40 R) (99% chance)
-[] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Deployment 51/600 (2 Dice, 40 R) (2/7 median)
Light and Chemical Industry 5/5 Dice 55 R
-[] Chemical Fertilizer Plants (Phase 2) 276/300 (1 Die, 15 R) (100% chance)
-[] Civilian Drone Factory 104/380 (3 Dice, 30 R) (24% chance)
-[] Artificial Wood Development 0/60 (1 Die, 10 R) (85% chance)
Agriculture 4/4 Dice + 3 Free Dice + Erewhon 90 R
-[] Freeze Dried Food Plants 181/200 (1 Die, 20 R) (100% chance)
-[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 26/250 (2 Dice, 30 R) (8% chance)
-[] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 3) 85/175 (4 Dice, 40 R) (Phase 3, 65% chance Phase 4)
-[] Extra Large Food Stockpiles (E, 0 R) (Auto)
Tiberium 7/7 Dice 180 R
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 1) 0/250 (4 Dice, 100 R) (99% chance)
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Yellow Zone 11) 0/130 (1 Die, 30 R) (25% chance)
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Red Zone 7) 0/120 (1 Die, 30 R) (35% chance)
-[] Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 5) 6/100 (1 Die, 20 R) (61% chance)
Orbital 6/6 + 2 Free Dice 160 R
-[] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 5) 348/1535 (7 Dice, 140 R) (7/15 median)
-[] Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting (Phase 2) 11/125 (1 Die, 20 R) (28% chance of Phase 2)
Services 5/5 Dice 180 R
-[] Pinhole Portal Early Primitive Prototype Construction 56/180 (1 Die, 100 R) (19% chance)
-[] Nod Research Initiatives (2 Dice, 60 R) (32% chance)
-[] Professional Sports Programs 102/250 (2 Dice, 20 R) (70% chance)
Military 8/8 Dice + 2 Free Dice + 1 AA Die 190 R
-[] Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations (Phase 3) 5/295 (4 Dice, 80 R) (81% chance)
-[] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 3) 0/200 (2 Dice, 30 R) (23% chance)
-[] Escort Carrier Shipyards (New York) 138/240 (1 Dice, 20 R) (40% chance, unless Nat 1 has impact)
-[] Shark Class Frigate Shipyard (Seattle) 0/300 (2 Dice, 40 R) (2/4 median)
-[] Mastodon Heavy Assault Walker Deployment 113/225 (1 + AA Dice, 20 R) (76% chance)
Bureaucracy 4/4
-[] Administrative Assistance (2 Dice) Fusion Power
-[] Administrative Assistance (2 Dice) Mastodon Walker
1130/1130
Energy Worst Case: 5 (Current) – 4 (Chicago) + 16 (Fusion) – 2 (Anadyr) – 1 (Chemical Fertilizer) – 1 (Freeze Dried) – 1 (Agriculture Mechanization) – 2 (URLS) – 5 (New York) – 3 (Mastodon) = 2 Energy
Food Worst Case: 21 (Current) – 5 (Refugees) + 4 (Chemical Fertilizer) + 6 (Freeze Dried) – 12 (Extra Large Stockpiles) – 6 (Stockpile Construction Phase 3-4) = 8 Food
As a result of the conditions imposed previously, this means not having a die on shuttles, as we want all five HI dice next turn on Crystal Lasers, that means if we want no Free dice on Infrastructure or HI this or next turn, not being able to activate Chicago next turn. Which in turn means us needing all six infrastructure dice on Chicago this turn to have a >50% chance of completing it. The only project I'd be willing to let go to Q4 is ASAT because it has substantial overflow, and it even saves R in the long run if we have overflow. Though we'd be committing to 4 dice on it in Q4 to do that. If we did that though, we could put a die on Bogatyr (as the two have the same average die cost). To do that I'd take a die from Seattle, and the R from Tiberium by moving a die from Border Offensives to GZ Intensification.
Edit:
[X] Plan AAAAAAaaaaaaAAAaaaa!
This plan speaks to me on a primal level.
From my previous Preliminary Required Dice analysis, these are our required dice:
Infrastructure: 18 Total, 2 (6 with Chicago and No CRP) Required, 16 (10 with Chicago and No CRP) Available
Heavy Industry: 15 Total, 9 (10 with Chicago) Required, 6 (5 with Chicago) Available
Light and Chemical Industry: 15 Total, 1 Required, 14 Available
Agriculture: 12 Total, 1 (14 with No CRP) Required, 11 (0 with No CRP) Available (1 AA/E die used), 0 (2 with No CRP) Free Dice Required
Tiberium: 21 Total, 2 (0 with Chicago) Required, 19 (21 with Chicago) Available
Orbital: 18 Total, 17 Required, 1 Available
Services: 15 Total, 0 Required, 15 Available
Military: 24 Total, 17 (21 with Seattle) Required, 7 (3 with Seattle) Available
Free: 21 Total, 0 (2 with No CRP) Required, 21 (19 with No CRP) Available
Heavy Industry: 15 Total, 9 (10 with Chicago) Required, 6 (5 with Chicago) Available
Light and Chemical Industry: 15 Total, 1 Required, 14 Available
Agriculture: 12 Total, 1 (14 with No CRP) Required, 11 (0 with No CRP) Available (1 AA/E die used), 0 (2 with No CRP) Free Dice Required
Tiberium: 21 Total, 2 (0 with Chicago) Required, 19 (21 with Chicago) Available
Orbital: 18 Total, 17 Required, 1 Available
Services: 15 Total, 0 Required, 15 Available
Military: 24 Total, 17 (21 with Seattle) Required, 7 (3 with Seattle) Available
Free: 21 Total, 0 (2 with No CRP) Required, 21 (19 with No CRP) Available
If we wanted to on average finish in Q3, which I think is a good idea, and if we were committed to Chicago, No CRP, and Seattle as Alternatives and Unofficial Plan Goals we have:
Infrastructure: 12 Total, 6 Required, 6 Available
Heavy Industry: 10 Total, 10 Required, 0 Available
Light and Chemical Industry: 10 Total, 1 Required, 9 Available
Agriculture: 8 Total, 14 Required, 0 Available (1 AA/E die used), 6 Free Dice Required
Tiberium: 14 Total, 0 Required, 14 Available
Orbital: 12 Total, 17 Required, 0 Available, 5 Free Dice Required
Services: 10 Total, 0 Required, 10 Available
Military: 16 Total, 21 (19 Delaying ASAT) Required, 0 Available, 3 Free Dice Required
Free: 14 Total, 14 Required, 0 Available
Heavy Industry: 10 Total, 10 Required, 0 Available
Light and Chemical Industry: 10 Total, 1 Required, 9 Available
Agriculture: 8 Total, 14 Required, 0 Available (1 AA/E die used), 6 Free Dice Required
Tiberium: 14 Total, 0 Required, 14 Available
Orbital: 12 Total, 17 Required, 0 Available, 5 Free Dice Required
Services: 10 Total, 0 Required, 10 Available
Military: 16 Total, 21 (19 Delaying ASAT) Required, 0 Available, 3 Free Dice Required
Free: 14 Total, 14 Required, 0 Available
To that end:
Draft Plan: Plan Goal Sprint
Infrastructure 6/6 Dice 120 R
-[] Chicago Planned City (Phase 4) 3/550 (6 Dice, 120 R) (76% chance) (see Heavy Industry)
Heavy Industry 5/5 Dice + 1 AA Die 150 R
-[] Chicago Planned City (Phase 4) 3/550 (1 Die, 20 R) (see Infrastructure)
-[] Isolinear Chip Foundry Anadyr 258/320 (1 Die, 50 R) (83% chance)
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) 243/300 (1 + AA Dice, 40 R) (99% chance)
-[] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Deployment 51/600 (2 Dice, 40 R) (2/7 median)
Light and Chemical Industry 5/5 Dice 55 R
-[] Chemical Fertilizer Plants (Phase 2) 276/300 (1 Die, 15 R) (100% chance)
-[] Civilian Drone Factory 104/380 (3 Dice, 30 R) (24% chance)
-[] Artificial Wood Development 0/60 (1 Die, 10 R) (85% chance)
Agriculture 4/4 Dice + 3 Free Dice + Erewhon 90 R
-[] Freeze Dried Food Plants 181/200 (1 Die, 20 R) (100% chance)
-[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 26/250 (2 Dice, 30 R) (8% chance)
-[] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 3) 85/175 (4 Dice, 40 R) (Phase 3, 65% chance Phase 4)
-[] Extra Large Food Stockpiles (E, 0 R) (Auto)
Tiberium 7/7 Dice 180 R
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 1) 0/250 (4 Dice, 100 R) (99% chance)
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Yellow Zone 11) 0/130 (1 Die, 30 R) (25% chance)
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Red Zone 7) 0/120 (1 Die, 30 R) (35% chance)
-[] Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 5) 6/100 (1 Die, 20 R) (61% chance)
Orbital 6/6 + 2 Free Dice 160 R
-[] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 5) 348/1535 (7 Dice, 140 R) (7/15 median)
-[] Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting (Phase 2) 11/125 (1 Die, 20 R) (28% chance of Phase 2)
Services 5/5 Dice 180 R
-[] Pinhole Portal Early Primitive Prototype Construction 56/180 (1 Die, 100 R) (19% chance)
-[] Nod Research Initiatives (2 Dice, 60 R) (32% chance)
-[] Professional Sports Programs 102/250 (2 Dice, 20 R) (70% chance)
Military 8/8 Dice + 2 Free Dice + 1 AA Die 190 R
-[] Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations (Phase 3) 5/295 (4 Dice, 80 R) (81% chance)
-[] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 3) 0/200 (2 Dice, 30 R) (23% chance)
-[] Escort Carrier Shipyards (New York) 138/240 (1 Dice, 20 R) (40% chance, unless Nat 1 has impact)
-[] Shark Class Frigate Shipyard (Seattle) 0/300 (2 Dice, 40 R) (2/4 median)
-[] Mastodon Heavy Assault Walker Deployment 113/225 (1 + AA Dice, 20 R) (76% chance)
Bureaucracy 4/4
-[] Administrative Assistance (2 Dice) Fusion Power
-[] Administrative Assistance (2 Dice) Mastodon Walker
1130/1130
Energy Worst Case: 5 (Current) – 4 (Chicago) + 16 (Fusion) – 2 (Anadyr) – 1 (Chemical Fertilizer) – 1 (Freeze Dried) – 1 (Agriculture Mechanization) – 2 (URLS) – 5 (New York) – 3 (Mastodon) = 2 Energy
Food Worst Case: 21 (Current) – 5 (Refugees) + 4 (Chemical Fertilizer) + 6 (Freeze Dried) – 12 (Extra Large Stockpiles) – 6 (Stockpile Construction Phase 3-4) = 8 Food
As a result of the conditions imposed previously, this means not having a die on shuttles, as we want all five HI dice next turn on Crystal Lasers, that means if we want no Free dice on Infrastructure or HI this or next turn, not being able to activate Chicago next turn. Which in turn means us needing all six infrastructure dice on Chicago this turn to have a >50% chance of completing it. The only project I'd be willing to let go to Q4 is ASAT because it has substantial overflow, and it even saves R in the long run if we have overflow. Though we'd be committing to 4 dice on it in Q4 to do that. If we did that though, we could put a die on Bogatyr (as the two have the same average die cost). To do that I'd take a die from Seattle, and the R from Tiberium by moving a die from Border Offensives to GZ Intensification.
Edit:
[X] Plan AAAAAAaaaaaaAAAaaaa!
This plan speaks to me on a primal level.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That blows...but, eh. That's how it went.
I'm game for it, but is there no way to get 2-3 dice towards Bogatyr, at least in Q4?
- Location
- Wall Gazing
No thats 100% doable, I'm just saying that if we delay ASAT to Q4 we will need to put 4 dice on it to ensure it completes. When I said 'put a die on Bogatyr, I meant this turn, otherwise we need all of our dice in Military on Plan Goals to have space for ASAT in Q3. I'd honestly prefer starting Bogatyr in Q3, and putting an another die on it in Q4 and a final one in Q1 of next year if needed. But I understand that people want to get in on the ground floor with it.
- Location
- USA
I would say Aqua 4 and 5 is better here. Both ways we get 12 food, but we need 205 points of progress for aqua vs 224 for mech, and it is 5R cheaper per die which lets us spend bigger elsewhere. One of those things that might let us save a die or two.
Also I think we are better served by going for a new processing plant this plan in tib than using HI dice on Chicago since we have HI plan goals we would want to try and push out Q2 and Q3 (because I do support the try to get things done in Q3 so we don't have to worry about coming up short in Q4).
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
We just plain do not have the slack in the Military category, nor do we have enough Free dice to create that kind of slack until Q4 at the earliest.
If there were no such thing as Plan commitments and we could just do whatever we felt like, I think that might be a pretty good lineup.
This turn's plan fired up a whole new series of consumer goods factories. Next turn's plan may or may not do the same- we're going to need to look at what we see in the Results post of this turn and the turn post of next turn and read the room. About the only things we have as "commitments" for this year in Light Industry are literally one die on the fertilizer plants, maybe 4-5 dice on Bergen, and ideally finishing off the drone factories. Plenty of room for 'consoom' in that category. Or in Services if any cheap good Services projects pop up like "expand capacity of public facilities."
The issue isn't being ignored, it's just that we promised the legislature we'd do a bunch of stuff and we're still having to, y'know, do it.
...
The arcology department is a good idea but its time has to come. This isn't about "maximize mathematical efficiency, ignore quality of life," either. I know some people expect it to be, but it's not. The problem with the arcology department is that it's providing relatively expensive bespoke housing at a time when we have a literal hundred million immigrants coming in who will all need homes in a hurry. When refugee waves are coming in so fast that they're "consuming" -10 Housing per turn, that is not the time to trade 1/6 of your Infrastructure dice capability for a puny +1 Housing/turn trickle.
Right now, "quality of life" on the housing means making sure we have a LOT of housing, so that we're not forcing people to live in cramped concrete bunkers or hastily assembled 2050-era commieblocks. As long as the Logistics holds up (quite a while, in other words) we can easily house three times as many people in apartments as in arcologies, and oh boy do we need a lot of people.
So permanently diminishing our ability to build apartments right now, in exchange for an arcology trickle, isn't going to be a good idea until the refugee wave slows the hell down and we've at least given everyone a place to live in the short term while we start the arcology trickle. We won't be doing GDI's quality of life any favors if we slow down housing construction to prioritize giant megascrapers over what tens of millions of people need right now.
...
As for the rest, we've got reallocation coming up. I'm sure the voters have a lot of ideas about what they want from us, and hopefully those ideas will be reflected in the Fourth Four Year Plan. Right now, we're still trying to keep our promises from the Third Plan, and bluntly, just about all those promises are things that make a lot of sense and are important.
[cracks knuckles]
Arcologies aren't a plan commitment anymore, and they aren't a viable solution to the problem of housing this giant-ass refugee wave we've got pouring in on us. I respect the desire to shake our fist at fate and say "screw you, building arcologies anyway" after we renegotiated our Plan commitments, but until the refugee flow slows down, we should be prioritizing apartments over arcologies.
I respect your lineup. My one beef is that the way you set your draft up makes it hard to tell at a glance how many Free dice you're allocating to a given field.
Interesting and probably healthy approach to "splitting the difference" rather than throwing a massive shock effort at either Bergen or the Civilian Support Expansion project.
I'm agnostic as to whether in Q2 we should do more Civilian Support Expansion, or do something else Consumer Goods facing, possibly including work on the Drone Factories. As I said further up, I think we need to just look at the situation and read the room after we get more information before making up our minds. Having GDI's population grow by 20% will clearly entail massive expansions of consumer goods output, though, and we should at least try to get out in front of that to keep the Consumer Goods target for the Fourth Four Year Plan from being unmanageable.
(Though Consumer Goods is one of the easiest indicators to boost, because there are three whole fields, Light Industry, Agriculture, and Services, that tend to be good at it)
Arguably we should try to do ELFS this turn. Even if the mechanization project doesn't complete, we should still have enough of a Food surplus for it to be okay, thanks to fertilizer plants and the boost we got from Phase 1 of mechanization.
Hm. Your Tiberium choices are respectable...
...I'd put a Free die on Enterprise. Enterprise is still about 15 dice from completion on average, and below-average rolls could stretch that out. If we want any wiggle room at all in Q4, we need to get out in front of that and invest aggressively to get the station up and running.
Of course, I'd also have put Erewhon on ELFS in Agriculture.
Your dice don't add up. Also, I strongly recommend doing the Nod tech gacha, even at the cost of flipping Bergen dice over to "random cheap LCI project" dice.
Not a bad lineup. If it was me, I'd put off ASAT Phase 4 until Q3, because it's such a small project that we have a very high likelihood of being able to finish it off in a single turn. OSRCT is the bigger sticking point and I'd recommend consolidating on that with all the dice available for space defense projects.
While I'd been thinking in terms of putting this off until Q3 to give things a bit more time to stabilize with the stand-down from Steel Vanguard's war footing, this isn't a bad choice.
Honestly, my take on this really is "finish this Plan while fitting in as many quality of life improvements as reasonably possible, then come out swinging towards a better standard of living for GDI citizens in 2062-65."
I want the goals you describe- "nation fit for heroes" and all that- but I also want to preserve our reputation as the guys who faithfully deliver on promises and who GDI's citizenry really knows they can trust to keep them physically safe.
It's a terrifying world out there. Humanity's population is down 70-80% from its peak. The planet is in really bad shape. Aliens have invaded and killed hundreds of millions, and we now know they aren't even entirely gone from our solar system. The mastermind who did more than any other person to make things this way is still at large and still commands the fanatical loyalty of a vast superpower- his to command any time he wants to pick it up again.
Steel Vanguard, and our steps to build up the parts of the military most proven deficient by Steel Vanguard (particularly the navy) are a way of us proving to GDI, and to humanity as a whole, that we can keep GDI safe. Physical security is at the bottom of the hierarchy of needs for a reason, and we've pretty well got that nailed down. I want us to finish strong on that push, then pivot to a stronger focus on butter alongside of or additional to guns in the Fourth Plan.
Honestly we could use more circuses too. One of the reasons Service dice keep getting left fallow is a relative dearth of cheap, popular things to do with them- something we had no shortage of in the First and Second Plans.
Yeah, well, I'm not proposing to rehabilitate them or be nice to them.
I'm just proposing to see if we can have a temporary time-out and cease-fire while we talk about just how much we hate that fucker Kane, and why.
We can have an equivalent chit-chat with Kane about how much we both hate the Visitors, except I'm not sure he does hate the Visitors, the fucker.
If it was me, I'd try to wiggle loose 5 R and put one of the dice working on the stockpiles onto the mechanization project to give it a better chance of completion. I like having the Food in hand before I try to store it.
This also helps give us better chances to dodge the alarmingly plausible "Food Worst Case." Though... come to think of it, you left the fertilizer plants out of your "worst case" calculation even though they're in the same "it is vanishingly unlikely that this won't complete" category as the freeze-drying plants at this point.
If we're trying to do everything in our power to keep Heavy Industry dice expenditures down, to the point of being willing to burn political capital on liquid tiberium power... We really don't want the Division of Alternative Energy. It's cheap and it has political virtues, but it's not dice-efficient.
We are already putting free dice in Agriculture. This isn't new. Look at the plan that was actually voted for this turn, and what's being discussed.
The thing is, we're seeing a sudden surge of "we need more agricultural goods and a more diverse diet" sentiment at a time when it is really hard for us to pivot and do much about it immediately. Because we made a major binding commitment to do something very specific by 2061Q4, and the politicians are starting to breathe down our necks about doing it, and getting it done will take genuine, very real work in just increasing bulk calorie output so we can supply the trillion or whatever cans of beans the legislature told us to stash.
If we'd been having this same conversation in 2058, we might have been in a position to do more about it in that moment. Right now, we're frantically pulling an all-nighter to finish the paper that's due tomorrow morning, and it's just not a great time to stop and smell the flowers, even if we totally, very much need to do that.
The trick is gonna be making sure to start strong with Agriculture in 2062 and not get sidetracked with stuff like spider cotton and poulticeplants that are useful but that the public doesn't really see as a quality of life thing.
Me, I gave the Mastodons a 1+AA die arrangement, so that it'd be reasonably likely to finish (and get out of our hair) without using proper dice.
As for New York, the problem is that the New York yard rolled a Natural 1 this turn. Until we know what the consequences of that are, it's hard to say what we need to do for dice investment. Maybe the Progress cost of the yard just increased markedly or something.
Say rather that we are dice-constrained. That is, we wish to accomplish as much as possible while Treasury is in its swollen state, not least because we have undertaken promises and obligations that cannot be met otherwise. We are to a large extent constrained in what we can accomplish by how many dice we have available to Do Things with, because right now the budget is vast and we can afford to do many things. Many of which we explicitly promised to do.
The time for spinoffs is when those promises are kept, not before those promises are kept.
As far as I can determine, a lot of this narrative discontent is either Discord-only or is quest participants deciding, now, at this moment, to worry about the issue after paying it relatively little mind for a long time.
Now, I can't comment on what's going on in Discord because I haven't been there in weeks. But we probably shouldn't go talking ourselves into having a freakout and randomly eating penalties for failure to complete Plan commitments because we decided The People Need Butter Dammit.
Let's just get this plan finished while doing as much good stuff for quality of life as we can fit in around the need to keep our promises, then really kick into high gear with the new Plan.
They cannot do anything about this until the end of 2063. We have nearly three years to deal with this.
We've actually been in this position before. We were dreading the Free Market Party taking us to the cleaners in the 2056 election because we'd failed to properly address the even worse post-war consumer goods crisis (when the problem wasn't a lack of butter and cars, it was a lack of shirts and medications).
But you know what? In Granger's second term, we tooled the fuck up and we dealt with it. We laid out the grants-to-coops programs, we built a bunch of +Consumer Goods projects all over the map, and we dealt with it. Because we saw the problem coming as early as 2053, we made substantial Consumer Goods promises in the Second Plan in 2054Q1, and we hit those targets handily.
We did it before. We can do it again.
So hold strong, finish the Plan, and that puts us in a position of credibility as the people who do what they say they're going to do, which will keep public confidence reasonably solid while we Attempt To Supply the Butter.
Also, Vertical Farming provides Consumer Goods in its own right. Quite a bit of them. Remember, people's desire for better food isn't just about animal products. It's also about berries, spices, and all sorts of stuff that grows well in the vertical farms.[/QUOTE]
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hrrmp. I think your basic analysis is valid, and I'm tempted to throw whatever weight I have behind this mindset, but I have some questions and comments.
If we're on a dice economy kick and trying to hurry up and knock off Plan goals, why are we even doing Chicago? Chicago Phase 4 is a "would be nice to have" action. It doesn't even save us any Energy compared to just building the refineries and hitting our cap target that way. Given everything you've said, we should be enacting a plan that keeps our Infrastructure dice open to help with calorie reclamation (which immediately alleviates a lot of the pain over in Agriculture, and makes it a lot more likely that we can finish Ranching Domes before the end of the Plan).
Also, this saves one of the ten precious Heavy Industry dice available for the laser project, which is really good because we're gonna be counting on that to supply us with Energy some time in Q2 or more likely Q3.
Here's how I see it. With the Phase 2 granaries in hand, we're at 4/20 towards our Stored Food target. ELFS puts us at 12/20 pretty much any time we want. Phase 1 of CRP in Infrastructure gives us +5... and then we only need two phases of stockpiles.
Conclusion: we should be putting a die on CRP (and potentially a second one in Q3 if the project doesn't clear). This gives us the breathing room to be more flexible in Agriculture- though I still intend to commit Free dice
Not disputing the YZ-11 idea and the RZ-7 inhibitor is a pet project of mine, but we need to rethink this too.
First off, Red Zone Border Offensives and related projects are good for the +Energy too, because we're going to be tight on Energy if we don't want to have to complete a ninth phase of the (possibly kinda sketchy) fusion reactors we've been slamming out so far. Every little bit helps.
Tiberium Refineries over here become an efficient way to fulfill our Plan target, whereas Chicago Phase 4 is not. The only real opportunity cost is -1 Logistics, from the point of view of completing this Plan's goals.
Imma go to work on something like this myself.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
First you have something broken in your quoting as it messed up parts of the post. Second on berries and spices, we actually have done work on those as consumer goods several times already. What we are suffering in terms of diversity is land animal products (fish and shrimp we have from various aquaponic projects) though we have some eggs and turkeys running around based on past results posts. So vertical farming is nice but its not a huge gain after some of the aquaponics (some gave consumer goods), 2 perennial deployments, the 1st vert farming and some other one off projects that were about cons goods from agri. Ranching domes is because that is an area that adds more to our diversity in option and probably locks further production of land animal products into wider distribution.
Also aqua and mechs helps offset the food used for the reserves and consumed by the refugees so it means our surplus shrinks by a much smaller amount (12 food vs 4 food for about the same progress). Which also makes ranching dome this plan far more viable.
We want more PS for reallocation not less, CRP is -10 PS for phase 1 (and only 2 food in reserve) we have far better uses for PS and may need it to make sure the next set of plan goals are not too restrictive. Better to wait awhile as given enough time passing and CRP no longer seeming like we are trying to do an end around should see the PS cost drop or disappear but that would be a next plan thing
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
More eggs and turkeys isn't a bad thing.
Again, nobody is saying we do one project over the other. We do both.
With the population growing, even Agri Mechanization might not be enough to stop a third phase of the Perennials being needed as well.
We can't just say that we've done one phase of something, and that that is enough for the entirety of GDI.
- Location
- USA
The issue is even with free dice we have only so much we can get done this plan- and given that land animal consumer goods is where we have the least diversity I would favor a route that gets ranching domes in compared to vert farming this plan. Right now I want to focus in on food production and reserves Q2 so we can hopefully put 1 or 2 dice on ranch domes Q3 with the hopes to finish Q4 while also hitting our plan goal targets.
Also I would love a 3rd phase of perennials being offered next plan, just not an option right now but would be great to kick off next plan.
- Location
- USA
I would like to insist on 1 dice on fortresses next turn. It's been a year since they expanded and we have so much more territory now.
Mossr
Master of the Void-less Ream
- Location
- The World Between Worlds
I'm done with my calculations. Let's start this.
Firstly, determining Tiberium's density. This was one of the hardest parts for me, mostly because the designers of the games were super inconsistent and vague, with the only concrete chemical formula for Tiberium being strange and using 'unknown substances'. It is also later described as a 'proton lattice', something I have no idea how to account for in a density calculator. Due to this, I have averaged out the densities of the elements displayed in the formula and added a bit to account for the sci-fi bullshit that makes this hungry rock work.
After doing some math and estimation, this comes out to about 7 grams per cubic centimeter. However, due to the unknown elements that makes up 1.5% of it, I'll add another gram and move it up to 8 grams/cm^3.
I am no way qualififed to try and estimate how much Tiberium is below Earth's surface, so I'll only calculate it's surface mass. the total dry landmass of our planet is about 148 326 000 square kilometers, so a whole damn lot. Red zones, which will account for the vast majority of surface Tiberium, take up 54.14% of it, coming out to 80303696 square kilometers, which I will round down to 80300000 square kilometers for the sake of my sanity and because it will not matter all that much in the end.
With that, it's time to see how much area the Tiberium crystals actually ocupy in a red zone. According to some images, primarily the ones in this article, much of the surface is covered in the detestable green crystals. From what I can see, it seems safe to assume that, if spread out, the crystals would cover the surface with a depth of around 10 to 20 centimeters, possibly more (Note, I'm not taking in account the Tiberium glaciers just yet. Those will have to wait a bit more.). I'll use 15 centimeters just to be safe, however.
Now, it's the easy part. Just have to find the volume the crystals occupy and multiply it by their density. Easy. With some simple volume calculations, this ends up with around 1.204e+15 cubic meters of Tiberium, with +- a few percent due to yellow zones. Multiplying the density of Tiberium, we get more or less 8 tons of the stuff per cubic meter. Putting these two values together we get 9.632e+15 tons of Tiberium pestering the surface of our planet.
That is... a lot. That is an incredibly, absurdly large amount of Tiberium. That is more than 9 times the mass of the entirety of Earth's oceans, and multiple orders of magnitude more than all biomass of Earth. And this is only accounting for regular, surface Tiberium. Underground deposits and glaciers multiply that number a few dozen times. I really, really hope I got something wrong in my calculations because, otherwise, Earth is much more fucked than I thought.
Firstly, determining Tiberium's density. This was one of the hardest parts for me, mostly because the designers of the games were super inconsistent and vague, with the only concrete chemical formula for Tiberium being strange and using 'unknown substances'. It is also later described as a 'proton lattice', something I have no idea how to account for in a density calculator. Due to this, I have averaged out the densities of the elements displayed in the formula and added a bit to account for the sci-fi bullshit that makes this hungry rock work.
After doing some math and estimation, this comes out to about 7 grams per cubic centimeter. However, due to the unknown elements that makes up 1.5% of it, I'll add another gram and move it up to 8 grams/cm^3.
I am no way qualififed to try and estimate how much Tiberium is below Earth's surface, so I'll only calculate it's surface mass. the total dry landmass of our planet is about 148 326 000 square kilometers, so a whole damn lot. Red zones, which will account for the vast majority of surface Tiberium, take up 54.14% of it, coming out to 80303696 square kilometers, which I will round down to 80300000 square kilometers for the sake of my sanity and because it will not matter all that much in the end.
With that, it's time to see how much area the Tiberium crystals actually ocupy in a red zone. According to some images, primarily the ones in this article, much of the surface is covered in the detestable green crystals. From what I can see, it seems safe to assume that, if spread out, the crystals would cover the surface with a depth of around 10 to 20 centimeters, possibly more (Note, I'm not taking in account the Tiberium glaciers just yet. Those will have to wait a bit more.). I'll use 15 centimeters just to be safe, however.
Now, it's the easy part. Just have to find the volume the crystals occupy and multiply it by their density. Easy. With some simple volume calculations, this ends up with around 1.204e+15 cubic meters of Tiberium, with +- a few percent due to yellow zones. Multiplying the density of Tiberium, we get more or less 8 tons of the stuff per cubic meter. Putting these two values together we get 9.632e+15 tons of Tiberium pestering the surface of our planet.
That is... a lot. That is an incredibly, absurdly large amount of Tiberium. That is more than 9 times the mass of the entirety of Earth's oceans, and multiple orders of magnitude more than all biomass of Earth. And this is only accounting for regular, surface Tiberium. Underground deposits and glaciers multiply that number a few dozen times. I really, really hope I got something wrong in my calculations because, otherwise, Earth is much more fucked than I thought.
Your post borked the quoting setup after this.
And the last paragraph of your next post is, too.
I may be over-estimating the problems regarding civilian discontent, but... we're seeing a huge surge of refugees, and it is eating up our Consumer Goods. And we have a nontrivial political party who has a core platform plank saying "taking them in is a mistake."
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, I think we would have noticed if Earth had grown nine times in mass ex nihilo. Both because of reduced gravity and because we would be in a much more elliptical orbit much closer to the Sun, cooking to death.
So I think we can assume that Tiberium at least conserves mass.
We also have mid-way through next Plan till the next election.
We're gonna be too busy this year getting on top of our Plan commitments, so, realistically, two years to get on top of it. Plenty of time.
- Location
- USA
We were at +37 after temp reductions at the start of Q1 and this is with some consumer chip production on cap goods thanks to the war right now which will revert sometime in the near future. And we are not sitting idle on +Consumer goods. Not that it is something we want to avoid doing but also not a crisis point (unless we ignore it completely but I have a hard time seeing Q2-Q4 not having at least one + cons good project rolled out each turn)
Edit- unless this was more of a keep this in mind sort of post in which case I agree
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't disagree with anything you just said, though I think there was only the one broken spot in the quoting, where I typed 'qutoe' instead of 'quote.'
As to the rest, I know why we want Ranching Domes and I want it too. I'm just trying to make sure it's clear that GDI isn't entirely on a bread and water diet here. For vegetarians the situation's pretty good, even!
But yeah, I'm working on it.
1120/1130 Resources
7/7 Free dice
ENERGY PLANNING (pessimistic)
+5 (baseline) -4 (Anadyr) +16 (fusion) -1 (fertilizer) -1 (freeze drying) -1 (mechanization) -3 (Mastodons) -2 (URLS) -5 (New York)
->
+4 Energy (but with all power-hungry military Plan requirements finished, and only the frigate yard remaining)
FOOD PLANNING (pessimistic)
+26 (baseline) +4 (fertilizer) +6 (freeze drying) -12 (ELFS) -3 (Phase 3 granaries) -5 (refugees are hungry)
->
+16 Food (with mechanization on the way for +12 more next turn, and easy +6 from Aquaponics)
STORED FOOD PLANNING (target: 28 Stored Food)
+12 (baseline) +8 (ELFS) +2 (Phase 3 granaries)
->
+22 Stored Food
(+27 if CRP completes, as is 70% likely)
...
So, we'd need more Energy from somewhere in Q3. Either a desperate buildup of Red Zone Border Offensives in hopes of harvesting +4 or even +6 ion power, a crash program to finish the crystal beam industrial lasers for +10 Energy, or God forbid, liquid tiberium power. I don't think liquid tiberium power is the right choice in that scenario compared to the other two, though, because in the pessimistic Energy scenario I describe (including at least one project that has a 23% chance of completion), we wouldn't have much left in the way of Energy-hungry mandatory stuff to build.
...
The Food situation would be looking good, and we'd catapult from being about 20% of the way to hitting the Stored Food target to being 70% of the way there, with the CRP producers supplying another 25% unless we're moderately unlucky. We won't need the second phase of CRP; it's too unpopular and we're too close. I'd rather do the 200-Progress Phase 4 granaries than the Phase 2 CRP.
So at this point, completing the Stored Food target in 2061Q3 becomes very likely, and we can lay the foundations for investment in Ranching Domes in Q3 and/or Q4, without having to spam many many Free dice in Agriculture. Just a few should do. More is (literal) gravy.
...
As for other Plan goals, well...
Infrastructure is set. Light Industry was never a problem. Heavy Industry? Anadyr should be finished in or before Q3. Crystal Beam Lasers will be the target of an aggressive sprint in Q3 and should finish, barring quite bad rolls. Agriculture, I just covered.
Tiberium? We'll have the refining cap in hand, without Chicago Phase 4. This is not to say we can't pivot and work on Chicago Phase 4 in 2061Q4, if we feel like it, but it'll be a strictly optional project, just in case we don't feel like doing suborbital shuttle spam or a bunch of railroads for old times' sake or another round of fortresses or the long-awaited "turn Low-Quality Housing into Normal Housing" refit project @Ithillid sometimes mumbles about.
Orbital is, in this iteration, the weak spot; it realistically CANNOT be sure to be finished by 2061Q3 at this point no matter what we do. All we can do is wiggle loose as many Free dice as possible to maximize the chance of an early surprise completion and minimize the number of dice we have to spend in Q4 to be sure of completing it.
Services was never a problem. Military... Well, after this, in Q3 I'm looking at 3 dice on ASAT (overwhelmingly likely to finish in Q3, with probable overflow), and probably 5-6 dice on OSRCT. That SHOULD get us to either completion or near-completion. Only 1-2 additional dice should be needed to finish off other projects. We wouldn't necessarily be finished, but we at least have a shot.
2061Q2 Draft Plan Attempting To Be Done By October
Infrastructure (+34) 6/6 Dice 90 R
-[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 1) 156/200 (1 Die, 30 R) (100% chance)
-[] Emergency Caloric Reclamation Processor Installations (Phase 1) 0/80 (1 Die, 10 R) (70% chance)
-[] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 6) 220/300 (1 Die, 20 R) (70% chance)
-[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 6+7) 0/320 (3 Dice, 30 R) (99% chance Phase 6, 16% chance Phase 7)
Heavy Industry (+29) 5/5 Dice + 1 Free Die + 1 AA Die 170 R
-[] Isolinear Chip Foundry Anadyr 258/320 (1 Die, 50 R) (83% chance)
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) 243/300 (1 + AA Dice, 40 R) (99.4% chance of Phase 8)
-[] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Deployment 51/600 (4 Dice, 80 R) (4/7 median)
Light and Chemical Industry (+24) 5/5 Dice 75 R
-[] Artificial Wood Development 0/60 (1 Die, 10 R) (85% chance with Seo bonus)
-[] Civilian Drone Factories 104/380 (2 Dice, 20 R) (2/3.5 median)
-[] Chemical Fertilizer Plants (Phase 2) 276/300 (1 Die, 15 R) (100% chance)
-[] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 3) 0/380 (1 Die, 30 R) (1/5 median)
Agriculture (+24) 4/4 Dice + 2 Free Dice + EREWHON!!! 85 R
-[] Freeze Dried Food Plants 181/200 (1 Die, 20 R) (100% chance, completes on bonuses alone)
-[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 26/250 (3 Dice, 45 R) (61% chance)
-[] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 3) 85/175 (2 Dice, 20 R) (97% chance)
-[] Extra Large Food Stockpiles (E, 0 R) (autosuccess)
Tiberium (+39) 7/7 Dice 170 R
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 1) 0/250 (2 Dice, 50 R) (10% chance)
-[] RZ-7 Tiberium Inhibitor 0/120 (1 Die, 30 R) (35% chance)
-[] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 2) 20/200 (1 Die, 30 R) (1/2 median)
-[] Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 5) 6/100 (1 Die, 20 R) (61% chance)
-[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Process Development 0/160 (2 Dice, 40 R) (85% chance)
--[] Hoping we can get the improved process BEFORE the new plants are too far along to be built with it from the ground up, then do whatever it takes to finish the plants in Q3. But if that doesn't happen, I'll just live with the disappointment
Orbital (+26) 6/6 + 2 Free Dice 160 R
-[] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 5) 348/1535 (7 Dice, 140 R) (7/14.5 median)
-[] Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting (Phase 2) 11/125 (1 Die, 20 R) (28% chance of Phase 2)
Services (+27) 5/5 Dice 180 R
-[] Pinhole Portal Early Primitive Prototype Construction 56/180 (1 Die, 100 R) (19% chance)
-[] Nod Research Initiatives (2 Dice, 60 R) (32% chance)
-[] Professional Sports Programs 102/250 (2 Dice, 20 R) (46% chance)
Military (+26) 8/8 Dice + 3 Free Dice + AA Die 190 R
-[] Mastodon Heavy Assault Walker Deployment 113/225 (1 + AA Dice, 20 R) (76% chance)
-[] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 3) 0/200 (2 Dice, 30 R) (23% chance)
-[] Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations (Phase 3) 5/295 (3 Dice, 60 R) (28% chance)
-[] Shark Class Frigate Shipyard (Seattle) 0/300 (2 Dice, 40 R) (2/4 median)
-[] Escort Carrier Shipyards (New York) 138/240 (2 Dice, 40 R) (95% chance, unless Nat 1 has impact)
--[] Second New York die may flow to OSRCT if not needed; a ~50% chance of completion on one die is acceptable
Bureaucracy 4/4
-[] Administrative Assistance- Mastodon Walker
-[] Administrative Assistance- Fusion Power
Mossr
Master of the Void-less Ream
- Location
- The World Between Worlds
You should read what I've writen a bit more carefully. I said it was 9 times the mass of Earth's oceans, which, while still massive, are nothing in comparison to the total mass of the Earth.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sorry. It's late and my reading comprehension is pants.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
Yes the first Phase of CRP is -10 PS, however, the first phase of Emergency CRP is only -5:
And -5 PS is more acceptable, if we go for Sports it will cancel it out.
Still your and Simon's points are well taken with regards to the Processing and BZ Aquaponics over Agri Mech.
Something like:
Agriculture 4/4 Dice + 2 Free Dice + Erewhon 70 R
-[] Freeze Dried Food Plants 181/200 (1 Die, 20 R) (100% chance, completes on bonuses alone)
-[] Blue Zone Aquaponics Bays (Phase 4) 75/160 (2 Dice, 20 R) (Phase 4, 18% chance Phase 5)
-[] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 3) 85/175 (3 Dice, 30 R) (Phase 3, 16% chance Phase 4)
-[] Extra Large Food Stockpiles (E, 0 R) (autosuccess)
This, combined with E-CRP in Infrastructure, actually has a chance to finish the Food Reserve Goal this turn. (8 (Extra Large Food Stockpiles) + 5 (Emergency CRP) + 4 (Strategic Food Stockpile Construction) = 17 > 16 Food Reserve Required)
Last edited:
But Reallocation comes with setting new plan goals. And that comes with choices along the lines of "we must provide [lots/more/tons/fucktons] of Consumer goods" and other things.
I also expect to see a mandatory "complete X Zone Armor factories" item. As well as some other stuff like that.
It's both a "if we don't keep working on it, we'll be in deep trouble", a "the more we do now, the less mandatory things we'll be looking at for the new plan", and a "expect to see things mandated to keep IF from gaining too much power". Okay, that was 3 things, it's late.
- Location
- USA
