Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Vehrec · May 7, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
The problem is that doing 4-5 R&D projects means spending 4-5 dice, and we have a lot of other priorities. Like SADN and navy laser refits (both of which need doing between, say, now and mid-2063 or so). Like Orca and Hammerhead wingman drones. Like some other stuff I'm probably forgetting. We don't actually have a lot of wiggle room, so fitting 4-5 "it would be nice ifs" alongside everything else is a toughie.

As for the specific projects:

[ ] Zone Defender Revision (Platform)
The Brotherhood of Nod's Black Hand Armor systems are strong combat assets, with massive slabs of heavy armor over a power assisted frame. The Zone Defender shares much of its goals with the Black Hand's approach, and design studies and prototyping will begin preparing for a better defended and cheaper version of the design, likely an aid to mass deployment of Zone Armor, especially for second and third line forces.
(Progress 0/40: 15 resources per die)

This is something we probably need- because it actively improves our ability to deploy the suits for Ground Force, rather than being an optional upgrade that makes the suits more complex and expensive and thus less suitable for mass deployment.

[ ] Infantry Recon Support Drone Development (Platform)
One advantage of the Zone Armor is that every man has a significantly more powerful radio than could be given to any infantry force. While long range drone operations are significantly contraindicated by the nature of Red Zone environments, small "pop up" drones should provide advanced reconnaissance, and act as forward sensor platforms.
(Progress 0/40: 10 resources per die)

This is an "it would be nice to have" for Ground Force power armor units- give our power armor troops their own equivalents of the Switchblade drone. Pairs well with Advanced ECCM. This also specifically helps with ZOCOM missions: they have few warm bodies, so doing forward recon and sentry roles is difficult for them and makes it more likely for them to take a trickle of casualties they can ill afford. Drones help with that. Ground Force needs this less because Ground Force formations are more extensively supported by air and land-based recon assets.

On the other and, operating the drones will require additional training, which is a problem for Ground Force because they have to operate on a much larger scale. I'm in favor of it, but am not in favor of delaying rollout of the armor to ensure that it is available. We can do this in, say, 2062Q1 and let the factories and training facilities gradually retrofit the capability in; we don't need every individual power armored Ground Force trooper to have one of these for them to be helpful, after all.

[ ] Backpack Rocket Launcher Development (Platform)
With the Zone Operations Command ever more intensely engaged with the Brotherhood of Nod, backpack systems are one of the easier ways to substantially increase firepower. While not always the most convenient location, by shifting around the power pack somewhat, nearly any Zone Operations Command unit can have a limited supply of short to mid range indirect fire options at their disposal.
(Progress 0/50: 10 resources per die)

This is not something Ground Force actually needs. ZOCOM arguably needs it because they go into combat environments where the full array of GDI's heavy armor and artillery support cannot follow and where even air support is often endangered by ion storms. But GDI's regular line infantry, who even when wearing power armor are constantly supported by a wide variety of dedicated heavy weapons teams and AFVs, do not really need this system to the same degree.

[ ] Zone Lancer Development (Platform)
A variant of the Marauder suit refitted with a personal plasma gun, the Zone Lancer is intended to augment and support the already extremely capable antiarmor capacity of the Initiative's Zone Armored forces, and provide a viable replacement for the Marauder's limited ammunition.
(Progress 0/40: 15 resources per die)

ZOCOM, again, has real problems getting enough heavy firepower to the point of contact in their usual operations, which motivates the creation of a plasma-armed variant of their existing heavy weapons Zone suit. However, anything with plasma guns is unlikely to be something we can deploy on a mass scale for the Ground Force, so this is unlikely to help.

So of the four available power armor projects, one (Defender) is something I want to do Real Soon in preparation for Zone Armor factory construction, because simplifying production is something you do before you mass-produce. And one (drones) is something I could see doing along with construction, because it's a useful "extra" capability but one that is not a mission requirement for what Ground Force specifically requires- it is closer to a mission requirement for ZOCOM, which is why they want it, but less so for Ground Force.

The other two (backpack rockets and Lancers), while nice, are much more likely to only see service with ZOCOM proper.

I'm not so sure about this-bolt on SRMs are a key part of Elemental Shock right up there with battle claws and being nigh-invincible. Now, it's not a very big platform-but if it helps ZOCOM and every little bit helps, it can't hurt to develop it. That said, it is probably a tiny project with a small impact.

Now let's get to my real concerns, Defenders vs Lancers. Our first phase of ZA factories is for the elite, spearhead units of the army. It is noteworthy in that Defenders are almost completely absent from this phase of factories. The Zone Defender might have a few lines for these units-it's pretty effective at mulching light infantry, but little else. The Zone Lancer, on the other hand, is very much an elite suit, offering similar DPS in anti-armor form to our railgun equipped ZA but with higher rate of fire and less overkill of light targets I believe. Furthermore, this plasma gun is specifically called out by Ithillid as one key to getting our energy-guns out there in the field. I think you've taken the fact that we had to ration our plasma missiles and put that on our beam weapons, and while there might be some STU costs here, I think it far more likely that a weapon fundamentally based on a personal ion cannon from the 1990s is going to be made with only earth-native materials. Additionally, there might be a new Zone Lancer pilot plant just for Zocom to use, but I'm not sure if it's going to happen or not.

Zone Defenders, on the other hand, primarily are used by ZOCOM to replace their foot infantry and I had an actual talk with Ithillid about what kind of cost savings the Defender Refits get us-they drop in price 'in game' from 1100 credits to 950, according to a squid. That's going to add up in large lots, but it's nothing like a doubling-more like a 'buy nine, get the tenth free' deal. So since ZOCOM uses more of them, and the Ground Forces ZA factories make relatively fewer of them, it seems more like something to bump ZOCOM up at the current moment. Of course, the third or fourth phase of factories probably makes LOTS of defenders. For now though, it's a somewhat marginal upgrade given the scale of production.

My personal ranking of ZOCOM's projects without at least three GFZA plants would be 1) Drones, 2) Lancers, 3) Defenders, 4) rocket launchers. With ZA plants, it goes to 1) Lancers, 2) Defenders, 3) Drones, and 4) Rocket Launchers.

Simon_Jester · May 7, 2022

Blazblade said:
Yeah, if we do get down with the next priority military projects for the next plan before it ends, we could start looking into the Guardian Mk 2, finish up the remaining requirements for the Paladin, etc.

I think we've actually fulfilled the requirements. The option's already available to us. We would just need to actually say "okay, we've developed enough systems that it's worth it." Honestly I think the only thing it's really worth trying to do first that might be relevant are:

-[] Advanced Alloys Development (Heavy Industry)
This may turn out to have decisively better tank armor gated behind it. We should look into it some time in 2061 and figure out what it's good for.

-[] Advanced ECCM
This may not actually have much effect on the tank, but we need to do it soon anyway; among other things, if we let Nod keep working on their tech indefinitely, they'll devise systems our existing knowledge doesn't let us counter.

-[] Stealth Disruptor
Since a main battle tank's primary role is to be a reasonably well protected (though not indestructible) mobile platform for bringing direct fire onto the enemy, it behooves us to ensure that the enemy cannot conceal themselves from its direct fire by cloaking. This is another tech we'd want to do anyway. I would really like to have both Advanced ECCM and Stealth Disruptors ready to use for the Karachi offensive. If Nod India is counting on being able to use its existing ECM and cloaking tech against us, only to be surprised that we have the ability to neutralize those advantages more so than they thought possible, it gives us a huge advantage over them in the critical early quarters while our forces are trying to get set up in the Indus Valley.

-[] Railgun Munitions
Effectively mandatory in the next few turns anyway, and it means we're under less pressure to replace the gun with an expensive and fiddly energy weapon.

-[] Light Combat Laser
This may turn out to be a significant upgrade to our existing tanks' missile defense lasers, which is highly desirable since Nod hasn't given up using missiles against us. And also because it may let us consolidate the existing machine-gun RWS and laser APS for the tank into a single unit, which would be a significant weight saving and lower the tank's target profile.

We might want to try researching

-[] Buckler Shield Development
Having the shield be a truly effective defense mechanism across the tank's frontal arc could be very useful, arguably more so than having protection from all sides but to a much lesser degree. Tanks are still usually shot at from the front, and as Nod keeps deploying more plasma and particle beam weapons, the fact that we don't have a good defense system capable of really stopping direct fire beam weapons from the front becomes more and more of a problem.

Void Stalker · May 7, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
-[] Advanced ECCM
This may not actually have much effect on the tank, but we need to do it soon anyway; among other things, if we let Nod keep working on their tech indefinitely, they'll devise systems our existing knowledge doesn't let us counter.

We also will have the Apollo-A dev option coming up soon to design one with energy weapons so getting stuff like this done for that platform as well would be a good idea.

Ace of Scarabs · May 7, 2022

[X]Plan Lads we sail out into the lightless void

Simon_Jester · May 8, 2022

Vehrec said:
I'm not so sure about this-bolt on SRMs are a key part of Elemental Shock right up there with battle claws and being nigh-invincible. Now, it's not a very big platform-but if it helps ZOCOM and every little bit helps, it can't hurt to develop it. That said, it is probably a tiny project with a small impact.

You kind of miss my point.

Elemental Shock works as it does because of a lot of details of how BattleTech works. Suffice to say that neither ZOCOM nor Ground Force fights like the Clans.

Ground Force infantry fight as part of an integrated combined arms force that deploys and lays down heavy fires from artillery and airstrikes while making use of larger formations of armor and fighting vehicles than the Clans would even think possible. Us putting Ground Force infantry in Zone Armor will not change this; they are still infantry, and they are still supported by great quantities of heavy firepower far beyond what backpack launchers or 'Zone Lancers' with plasma cannons can support.

Thus, the need for organic heavy weapons on Ground Force power armor, while real, is less important than it is for ZOCOM, which regularly fights in Red Zones with little or no support from vehicle-mounted heavy weapons. ZOCOM needs the personal firepower, since conventional GDI armored vehicles usually do not thrive in Red Zones.

Now let's get to my real concerns, Defenders vs Lancers. Our first phase of ZA factories is for the elite, spearhead units of the army. It is noteworthy in that Defenders are almost completely absent from this phase of factories.

That is not an accurate summary.

The Defender project's goal is "a better defended and cheaper version of the design, likely an aid to mass deployment of Zone Armor, especially for second and third line forces."

Note that 'especially' means 'it will help sooner than that, but will help more after that,' not 'it is useless before that, but becomes useful after that.'

...

Turning each individual infantryman in Ground Force into a walking tank is not, because it is not the role of infantry in a modern combined arms force to be the primary death-dealers. That is simply not what they do. ZOCOM does things differently because ZOCOM is not the same sort of combined arms force as Ground Force is.

When we first deploy power armor to the Ground Forces, the goal is not "elite units." The goal is mass deployment of a survivable system that permits carriage of heavi-er firepower, great-er personal mobility, and protection against what would normally be classed as antipersonnel weapons.

I feel no need to develop the Lancer before we start building Ground Force zone armor factories. We will no doubt continue to be building entire new factories for power armor for Ground Force for years to come, well after we complete the Lancer for ZOCOM's sake. If Ground Force wants Lancers of their own, all they have to do is ask us to dedicate one of the many entirely new factories we are building to that purpose.

I do not think Ground Force will thank us for delaying production of any power armor of any kind, so that we can complete development of specialized power armor of a novel type that only a small percentage of their units will use.

Zone Defenders, on the other hand, primarily are used by ZOCOM to replace their foot infantry and I had an actual talk with Ithillid about what kind of cost savings the Defender Refits get us-they drop in price 'in game' from 1100 credits to 950, according to a squid. That's going to add up in large lots, but it's nothing like a doubling-more like a 'buy nine, get the tenth free' deal. So since ZOCOM uses more of them, and the Ground Forces ZA factories make relatively fewer of them, it seems more like something to bump ZOCOM up at the current moment. Of course, the third or fourth phase of factories probably makes LOTS of defenders. For now though, it's a somewhat marginal upgrade given the scale of production.

Quite frankly, your reasoning here is very opaque to me.

ZOCOM's power armor production comes from six 75-Progress factories.

The first wave of Ground Force power armor production involves six 200-Progress factories. Yes, 190 now. You know what I mean.

It seems reasonable to conclude, given that Ground Forces needs us to spend roughly four times as much total Progress on this overall phase of the program, that Ground Forces will be expecting several times more power armor in use than the total amount now used by ZOCOM. Four, at least.

ZOCOM has about two corps worth of actual soldiers wearing power armor of any kind. It seems reasonable to conclude that Ground Force's idea of a "first wave" of "spearhead" troops to be equipped with power armor is, say, six or eight corps of troops. Or maybe even more!

I don't understand why you think this involves Ground Force having less interest in making their power armor cheaper and easier to mass produce than ZOCOM does, which appears to be your conclusion.

The fact that even bigger and more strenuous programs of mass deployment will come later with Ground Force's second and third waves of factories just makes the Defender refit even more important.

My personal ranking of ZOCOM's projects without at least three GFZA plants would be 1) Drones, 2) Lancers, 3) Defenders, 4) rocket launchers. With ZA plants, it goes to 1) Lancers, 2) Defenders, 3) Drones, and 4) Rocket Launchers.

I don't have a problem with your prioritization before Ground Force Zone Armor is considered.

But I think Lancers should be right down there with Rocket Launchers if we're thinking about what Ground Force needs. Again, Ground Force doesn't need its power armor troops to be walking minitanks; it has real tanks for the kind of tasks on a battlefield that a Zone Lancer would normally be required for.

What Ground Force needs is to be able to armor up and deploy large numbers of power armored troops, lots and lots of them, on a scale far beyond anything ZOCOM has ever imagined.

Which means that shaving 10-15% off the production cost of each power armor suit sounds really good.

Void Stalker said:
We also will have the Apollo-A dev option coming up soon to design one with energy weapons so getting stuff like this done for that platform as well would be a good idea.

Advanced ECCM may actually matter less on the Apollo-A, simply because it will benefit our missile combat methods more than our beam combat methods.

But basically, I want to agitate strongly for us developing and deploying both Advanced ECCM and Stealth Disruptor. I want development during the current Plan if at all possible, and at least early stages of deployment by 2062 or early 2063 at the latest so that these systems can achieve operational surprise for Karachi, which I am currently thinking/hoping to do in 2063Q4 and early 2064.

Ithillid · May 8, 2022

Vehrec said:
1990s

Nitpick but Merlin I was early 2000s. Post TW1 during the insurgencies that would lead towards TW2.

Dmol8 · May 8, 2022

F0lkL0re said:
Bot's currently unable to run anything due to irl stuff so sunrise is running SCEDQuest until Bot can devote time towards it again.

[X]Plan Lads we sail out into the lightless void

That is only half of an answer to my own question. Why is BOTcommander voting in a quest he designed and then ran until now?

HousePet · May 8, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
Given that our entire population has Internet access, the Surveys are going to be a bit simpler. We can probably get those done pretty fast, and the results will be relatively easy to interpret.

Actually no. Opinions are far worse than economic conditions to assess. You have to consider how the respondent interpreted your questions, and what may be biasing their opinions.
The economic census is at least mostly about hard data. It won't fluctuate just because someone is having a good/bad day.
Consider them to be both in the 'very difficult' basket, just for wildly different reasons.

Dmol8 · May 8, 2022

Ithillid said:
21.29 Blue Zone
2.16 Green Zone
22.82 Yellow Zone
53.73 Red Zone

Oh for fuck's sake. I forgot to add the loss of Red Zones, which is 0.02 more than I calculated (what), to my Yellow Zone calculation and the loss of Yellow Zones into my Blue Zone calculation. Alright this is me just tidying up my preliminary plan info. Skip if you already read this version a few pages back:

Resources:‌ ‌1020 ‌(15‌ ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌the‌ ‌Forgotten)‌ ‌(35 ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌grants)‌(+30 from Taxes) (-5 from Resettlement) (-30 from Reconstruction commissions)

Political‌ ‌Support:‌ 54
SCIENCE Meter: 4/4
Free‌ ‌Dice:‌ ‌7 ‌
Erewhon Dice: 1
Tiberium Spread
21.29 Blue Zone
2.16 Green Zone
22.82 Yellow Zone (98? Points of Abatement)
53.73 Red Zone (70? Points of Abatement)

Current Economic Issues:
Housing: +36? (31? population in low quality housing) (-5 per turn from refugees)
Energy: +16? (+4 in reserve)
Logistics: +24? (-9 from raiding) (-7 from military activity)
Food: +19? (+10 in reserve)
Health:+3? (-9? from Wartime Demand) (-15? from Refugees)
Capital Goods: +28? (+95? in reserve) [-10 at End of War ] [+1 in Q1 2061 ]
STUs: +11
Consumer Goods: +37? (-22 from demand spike) (+3 from Private Industry)
Labor: +44?
Tiberium‌ ‌Processing‌ ‌Capacity‌ ‌(1925?/2470)‌ ‌
Labor Per Turn: +4
Taxation Per Turn: +30
Space Mining Per Turn: +75
Green Zone Water: +6

[ ] Plan Running on Glass v1.0:
-[ ] Infrastructure 6/6 Dice + 1 Free Die 115 Resources:
--[ ] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 6) 220/300 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
--[ ] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 3) 72/160 10 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 20 Resources
--[ ] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 1) 92/200 30 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 30 Resources
--[ ] Tokyo Harbor Reconstruction 0/300 15 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 45 Resources
-[ ] Heave Industry 5/5 Dice + 3 Free Dice 220 Resources:
--[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) 67/300 20 Resources per Die, 4 Dice = 80 Resources
--[ ] Low Velocity Particle Applicator Development (Tech) 0/120 20 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources
--[ ] Isolinear Chip Foundry Anadyr 85/320 50 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 100 Resources
-[ ] Light and Chemical Industry 5/5 55 Resources:
--[ ] Chemical Fertilizer Plants (Phase 2) 276/300 15 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 15 Resources
--[ ] Civilian Drone Factories 104/380 10 Resources per Die, 4 Dice = 40 Resources
-[ ] Agriculture 4/4 Dice 40 Resources:
--[ ] Blue Zone Aquaponics Bays (Phase 4) 75/140 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
--[ ] Freeze Dried Food Plants 151?/200 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
--[ ] Caloric Reclamation Processor Deployment 0/??? 5 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 10 Resources
-[ ] Tiberium 7/7 Dice 150 Resources:
--[ ] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 2) 5/195 20 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 60 Resources
--[ ] Intensification of Green Zone Harvesting (Stage 7) 78/100 15 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 15 Resources
--[ ] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 1) (Updated) 0/200 25 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 75 Resources
-[ ] Orbital Industry 6/6 Dice + Erewhon Die 140 Resources:
--[ ] Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting (Phase 1) 45/160? 20 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources
--[ ] Lunar Regolith Harvesting (Phase 2) 278/330? 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
--[ ] Lunar Heavy Metals Mines (Phase 4) 25/365 20 Resources per Die, 3 Dice + Erewhon Die = 80 Resources
-[ ] Services 5/5 Dice 150 Resources:
--[ ] Hardlight Interface Deployment 0/??? 15 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 30 Resources
--[ ] Less Lethal Security Electrolaser Deployment 0/??? 10 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 20 Resources
--[ ] Pinhole Portal Early Primitive Prototype Construction (Tech) 56/180 100 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 100 Resources
-[ ] Military 8/8 Dice + 2 Free Die 150 Resources:
--[ ] Skywatch Telescope System 64/95 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
--[ ] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 3) 0/200 15 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 30 Resources
--[ ] Railgun Munitions Development 38/60 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
--[ ] Escort Carrier Shipyards (High Priority) Nagoya 171/240 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
--[ ] Escort Carrier Shipyards (High Priority) Dublin 0/240 20 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 60 Resources
--[ ] Mastodon Heavy Assault Walker Deployment (High Priority) 0/??? 10 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 20 Resources
-[ ]Bureaucracy 4/4 Dice + 1 Free Die:
--[ ] Conduct Economic Census 5 Dice DC 250

115+220+55+40+150+140+150+150 = 1020/1020

Well this my second draft of my preliminary plan and since I do now know how much resources I have I won't be adjusting it to the Tax question because it was answered with no gains. So I now understand how much Resources we are working with:

- 1 Die on Yellow Zone Fortress Towns for a 70% chance and a DC of 31 to complete Phase 6. Not fully sure if I want to risk this action not completing for another turn, but for now this is what I'm going with.
- 2 Die on Blue Zone Apartment Complexes for a 100% chance and an Average DC of 3 to complete Phase 3 and a 7% chance and an Average DC of 83 to complete Phase 4 and be done with this plan goal.
- 1 Die on Suborbital Shuttle Service for a 42% chance and a DC of 59 to complete Phase 1 and get us to the cheaper Phases.
- 3 Dice on Tokyo Harbor Reconstruction for a 71% chance and an Average DC of 46 to complete this turn.

- 4 Dice on Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants for a 96% chance and an Average DC of 26 to complete Phase 8 and no chance of completing Phase 9.
- 2 Die on Low Velocity Particle Applicator Development for a 90% chance and an Average DC of 24 to complete. I'm honestly not sure if this is a placeholder for Industrial Lasers Deployment or if I want to do this before that action for a bonus in gain from both of them in our plan goal.
- 2 Die on Anadyr for a 8% chance and an Average DC of 89 to complete. And this is why I'm so divided on whether LVPA is a placeholder or not: because if it is I can slow roll Industrial Lasers and get another Die here on Anadyr to get it done with this plan.

- 1 Die on Chemical Fertilizer Plants for a 100% chance and a DC of 1 to complete it and get the Food from it.
- 4 Dice on Civilian Drone Factories for a 73% chance and an Average DC of 42 to complete and get us that little bit more of Health.

- 1 Die on Blue Zone Aquaponics for a 75% chance and a DC of 26 to complete Phase 4 and get more Food to handle the Refugees.
- 1 Die on Freeze Dried Food Plants if we can take that action next turn. 91% chance and a DC of 10 to complete if nothing has changed.
- 2 Die on Caloric Reclamation Deployment to get some more Food Stockpiles and/or better Ranching Domes.

- 3 Dice on Tiberium Vein Mines for a 97% chance and an Average DC of 21 to complete Stage 2. Need to get this rolling for the Underground Remediation.
- 1 Die on Intensification of Green Zone Harvesting for a 100% chance and a DC of 1 to complete Stage 7 and a 33% chance and a DC of 68 to complete Stage 8 if we also complete Phase 6 of Yellow Zone Fortress Towns.
- 3 Dice on Red Zone Border Offensives currently for a 96% chance and an Average DC of 23 to complete Stage 1 and get us Energy and Super Glaciers. Probably will still be good enough to get Stage 1 done even with adjustments from lightning collectors.

- 2 Die on Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting for a 89% chance and an Average DC of 24 to complete Phase 1.
- 1 Die on Lunar Regolith Harvesting for a 90% chance and a DC of 11 to complete Phase 2.
- 3 Dice and an Erewhon Die on Lunar Heavy Metals Mines for a 22% chance and an Average DC of 62 to complete and be done with until the next Phase of Enterprise is done.

- 2 Die on Hardlight Interface Deployment as a placeholder for that action.
- 2 Die on Electrolaser Taser Deployment as a placeholder for that action.
- 1 Die on Pinhole Portal Early Primitive Prototype Construction for a 19% chance and a DC of 82 to complete with this plan. This is an expensive bastard of an action.

- 1 Die to finish off the Skywatch Telescope and save some resources for use elsewhere.
- 2 Die on the last Phase of URLS Deployment for a 23% chance and an Average DC of 67 to complete with this plan.
- 1 Die on Railgun Munitions Development to get that done.
- 1 Die on Escort Carrier Shipyards Nagoya for a 73% chance and a DC of 28 to complete.
- 3 Dice on Escort Carrier Shipyards Dublin for a 54% chance and an Average DC of 49 to complete. Carrier Shipyards only for this plan.
- 2 Die on Mastadon deployment because Nero's a cool dude.

- 5 Dice on Conduct Economic Census for a 98% chance and an Average DC of 23 to get pass the highest DC of 250.

Nottheunmaker · May 8, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
Thus, the need for organic heavy weapons on Ground Force power armor, while real, is less important than it is for ZOCOM, which regularly fights in Red Zones with little or no support from vehicle-mounted heavy weapons. ZOCOM needs the personal firepower, since conventional GDI armored vehicles usually do not thrive in Red Zones.

If we want organic components in our weapon platforms, we're going to have to work very hard to catch up to Nod.

No I don't care that you meant something completely different. Also I would like to have bears in power armor to throw at Nod forces, that ought take the corpse-starch outta them.

IndustrialVice2 · May 8, 2022

Couple of thoughts on the Zone Armor discussion. First of all, @Simon_Jester is absolutely right that Defenders should be higher priority than Lancers. Lancers provide infantry with a supporting anti-air and anti-armor unit that's powerful and tactically mobile in its role. Defenders straight-up make conventional infantry obsolete. They turn every infantryman pack as much gun as an entire fireteam and run through machinegun fire as a low enough price point that you can feasibly equip all your line infantry with one. That's nuts.
Secondly, I'm pretty sure that rocket packs and recon drones would combine to let Zone Armor spot for their own indirect fire, making for some nasty harassment capability. It would essentially let Zone Troopers function as a mortar team with integrated recon capabilities, at least for short periods of time.

Phht · May 8, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
ZOCOM's power armor production comes from six 75-Progress factories.

The first wave of Ground Force power armor production involves six 200-Progress factories. Yes, 190 now. You know what I mean.

Technically, that's not all of ZOCOM's Zone Armor production, I believe. That was for expanding production so they could fully convert their infantry forces to Zone Armor?

But that still means that we're doing more than double ZOCOM's production capacity in one wave. So we're looking at potentially 4-5 Corps of mechanized infantry kitted in Zone Armor from that first wave of factories. Maybe more, depending on what exactly their armor/vehicle mix is compared to ZOCOM. I'd expect 3 Corps to be in the Green Zone sections bordering the Red Zone (East NA, West NA, Europe), leaving the rest for other use (taking over from ZOCOM detachments outside Red Zones, maybe?). If a second wave is the same size... another 4-5+ Corps kitted out? That'll certainly make Karachi interesting.

I do wonder what that'll mean for ZOCOM. 2 Corps of Zone Armor forces, vs 4-5/8-10+ Corps of Zone Armor forces. I mean, you could argue that Zone GF has no place in Red Zones instead of ZOCOM, but there's gonna be politicians going, "Those suits are rated for red zone operations, why are we not actually using them there?" (and not taking "they're not trained for red zone operations" as a valid answer). As a bonus, using Zone GF in shallow red areas for things like garrison/patrol would free up ZOCOM units for other work. Which also kinda leads to ZOCOM starting to lose its unique niche compared to regular GF over time.

Maybe take the MRASP concept, grab Mastodons from Steel Talons, and pivot into being the masters of Deep Red operations? Have a battalion or Brigade with a "Crawler" and Mastodons as a single combat force roving through Deep Red, swinging out to hit Nod operations in the Shallow Red or Near Red zones before fading back into the deep... Toss in possibly ion storm collector panel equipped airships/ground vehicles looming out of ion storms ominously to strike Nod operations.... ZOCOM becomes the bogeyman of Near/Shallow Red Nod forces. Horror stories are told about them.

--

I do believe I saw at one point that a platoon of Zone Armor was roughly equivalent to a company of mechanized infantry.

Also, Lancers replace Marauders, so that ZOCOM goes from limited missiles to unlimited plasma. Zone GF wouldn't need Lancers, as they're operating much nearer supply lines and can just restock their missiles, so they'd just be getting Marauders for their missile squads.

--

For reference, I'm breaking things up into Blue, Near Blue (Shallow Yellow/Green), Yellow, Near Red (Deep Yellow/Green), Shallow Red, Deep Red. TW3-ish and before, it would've been Blue, Shallow Yellow, Yellow, Deep Yellow, Shallow Red, and Deep Red. Creation of Green Zones led to Shallow Yellow becoming Near Blue, and Green Zones getting into what would normally be Deep Yellow led to Deep Yellow becoming Near Red. Deep Yellow is still used to describe non-GDI controlled areas near RZ, and Shallow Yellow is still used the same as before except it refers solely to non-GZ areas. But if you're talking about operational areas or survival training coverage (or where you lived before moving to a Blue Zone), Near Blue/Red covers things well enough.

Regular GF would likely be survival trained for Blue, Near Blue, Yellow, and Near Red. Presumably there's a portion of Near Red training that briefly covers some of the stuff you need to know for Shallow Red operations given your likely proximity to that zone. ZOCOM gets Shallow Red and Deep Red survival training. Presumably Zone GF would end up with Shallow Red training initially, if only because that's likely the first survival training course covering Zone Armor. Also presumably, Zone Armor versions of the other areas (Blue for Blue/Near Blue, Yellow for Yellow/Near Red?) will get developed at some point after Zone GF introduction to be used instead, because that'd a bit more useful overall than the "Everything hates you, suit punctures are death, never break seals outside of airlocked spaces, god help you if you get injured in the field" of Shallow Red training.

Simon_Jester · May 8, 2022

HousePet said:
Actually no. Opinions are far worse than economic conditions to assess. You have to consider how the respondent interpreted your questions, and what may be biasing their opinions.

The economic census is at least mostly about hard data. It won't fluctuate just because someone is having a good/bad day.
Consider them to be both in the 'very difficult' basket, just for wildly different reasons.

Suffice to say that we cannot derive the level of fine-grained detail from the opinion surveys, so all that is to be expected of them is a rough barometer of what the populace wants, thinks it needs, and expects.

Much more is expected of the economic surveys, so much more is required of them. Furthermore, Treasury cannot form detailed useful conclusions about what to DO about public opinion, only broad ones... Whereas it can definitely form detailed opinions and conclusions about economic issues, which it is qualified to address more directly.

So while the opinion surveys are "harder" to address, that doesn't mean we need more time to think about the results before finding those results to be useful.

Phht said:
Technically, that's not all of ZOCOM's Zone Armor production, I believe. That was for expanding production so they could fully convert their infantry forces to Zone Armor?

My impression was that by the end of Tib War III, ZOCOM had very minimal armor production left and very minimal numbers left.

Whatever production capacity they had before probably was on a level far beow what it was after we finished the factory wave... unless you go back to the pre-TWIII state of affairs.

But that still means that we're doing more than double ZOCOM's production capacity in one wave. So we're looking at potentially 4-5 Corps of mechanized infantry kitted in Zone Armor from that first wave of factories. Maybe more, depending on what exactly their armor/vehicle mix is compared to ZOCOM. I'd expect 3 Corps to be in the Green Zone sections bordering the Red Zone (East NA, West NA, Europe), leaving the rest for other use (taking over from ZOCOM detachments outside Red Zones, maybe?). If a second wave is the same size... another 4-5+ Corps kitted out? That'll certainly make Karachi interesting.

I think that Ground Force is going to prioritize their power armor units wherever they expect those units to fight, more so than in the Red Zones, simply because Ground Force's mission isn't to fight in Red Zones primarily, it's to fight wherever Nod is. And by and large, Nod doesn't live in Red Zones.

Ground Force doesn't want power armor so they can be junior varsity ZOCOM troops; the want power armor so they can have big stompy steel boots for kicking Nod's ass.

(Also, I'm pretty sure Ground Force has occasionally operated in Red Zones, such as during the assaults on the Threshold towers at the end of Tib War III; it's just that this is a desperation move and not part of normal doctrine)

I do wonder what that'll mean for ZOCOM. 2 Corps of Zone Armor forces, vs 4-5/8-10+ Corps of Zone Armor forces. I mean, you could argue that Zone GF has no place in Red Zones instead of ZOCOM, but there's gonna be politicians going, "Those suits are rated for red zone operations, why are we not actually using them there?" (and not taking "they're not trained for red zone operations" as a valid answer).

The question then becomes whether there is a real need for more soldiers specifically in Red Zones. I think you may be overestimating the extent to which this is true. If Zone Troopers can be relieved of the obligation to secure facilities in the Deep Yellow and at key locations worldwide, and up-armed a bit with some of the projects we've got on hold right now, there may just not be much need for Ground Force to send masses of troopers into the Red Zones after them.

And those politicians will get the answer "they aren't being used in Red Zones because they're too busy railgunning Noddies in the Yellow Zones."

Also, Lancers replace Marauders, so that ZOCOM goes from limited missiles to unlimited plasma. Zone GF wouldn't need Lancers, as they're operating much nearer supply lines and can just restock their missiles, so they'd just be getting Marauders for their missile squads.

Well, plasma cannon may have advantages over missiles, or be a good supplement to missiles- but more generally, both Lancers and Marauders are part of the ZOCOM force (or contemplated as part of it) because ZOCOM operates in places where they have no access to any weapons heavier than what their Zone Suits can carry, so when they need tank-grade firepower their existing railguns are not enough and they need more.

Ground Force infantry do not need as much personal firepower, because they have more firepower in the form of support arms to call on.

For reference, I'm breaking things up into Blue, Near Blue (Shallow Yellow/Green), Yellow, Near Red (Deep Yellow/Green), Shallow Red, Deep Red. TW3-ish and before, it would've been Blue, Shallow Yellow, Yellow, Deep Yellow, Shallow Red, and Deep Red. Creation of Green Zones led to Shallow Yellow becoming Near Blue, and Green Zones getting into what would normally be Deep Yellow led to Deep Yellow becoming Near Red. Deep Yellow is still used to describe non-GDI controlled areas near RZ, and Shallow Yellow is still used the same as before except it refers solely to non-GZ areas. But if you're talking about operational areas or survival training coverage (or where you lived before moving to a Blue Zone), Near Blue/Red covers things well enough.

Honestly, I think this is getting needlessly complicated...?

I think you're overthinking this. Ground Force doesn't want power armor so they can fight in highly tiberium-contaminated areas (yellow, orange, red, pink with purple polka dots, whatever). Ground Force wants power armor because it's big, stompy, bulletproof, and good at killing Noddies. They are very above board about this. It's not subtle. Since the legislature mostly approves of killing Noddies, I'm pretty sure that will satisfy them, and there will be no need to use Ground Force power armor units primarily or at all as a sort of... junior varsity ZOCOM... or whatever you envision them as.

tenchifew · May 8, 2022

[X]Plan Lads we sail out into the lightless void

Couldn't resist:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe7oNzGDuIg

Cursix · May 8, 2022

Ground forces want the armour because it's goddamn power armour. ZOCOM wants the ground forces to get power armour so the ground forces can take over red zone guard duty and ZOCOM can start the tib heavy zone offensive actions. Notice how in all the offensive strikes we've pulled this war, we've seen little to nothing from zone troops? That's because they're all stuck guarding our glacier mines and the like because nobody else has the means to do so as effectively or safely. Our elite deep strike specialist power armoured dudes are stuck doing guard duty on mines.

Hazard · May 8, 2022

Cursix said:
Ground forces want the armour because it's goddamn power armour. ZOCOM wants the ground forces to get power armour so the ground forces can take over red zone guard duty and ZOCOM can start the tib heavy zone offensive actions. Notice how in all the offensive strikes we've pulled this war, we've seen little to nothing from zone troops? That's because they're all stuck guarding our glacier mines and the like because nobody else has the means to do so as effectively or safely. Our elite deep strike specialist power armoured dudes are stuck doing guard duty on mines.

Correction.

Our elite, deep Red Zone specialists carrying power armour because otherwise you are at distinct risk of dying of tib exposure are stuck garrisoning deep Red Zone operations rather than available to use their power armour to support more general military operations.

The reason we don't see a lot of ZOCOM activity is because GDI has made the conscious decision not to try to enter into Red Zone operations for the Regency War on account of ZOCOM being stretched to the limit already.

We have seen considerable activity from the OSRCT, which are the elite, deep strike specialists with power armour, but the reason we do not see more activity from them is that they are actually not that numerous and we finished up their first station only barely in time for the Regency War to kick off, so they have a limited availability.

The reason ZOCOM wants the ground forces to get power armour is so that ZOCOM can stop guarding non-RZ areas, to be taken over by GF in ZA, and focus on beating up the money rock for money and territory. Depending on how much the Treasury invests in RZ operations, more ZA also means that ZOCOM itself can grow, while any areas that stop being RZs and start being YZs/GZs mean that ZOCOM can hand over the area to GF for general operations.

BOTcommander · May 8, 2022

Dmol8 said:
Why is @BOTcommander voting for a turn in his own sidequest that is for some reason run by @sunrise this turn?

I am in permanent study jail for my university degree and will only return to writing once I have learned the behaviors that allow me to meaningfully make progress.

Dmol8 · May 8, 2022

BOTcommander said:
I am in permanent study jail for my university degree and will only return to writing once I have learned the behaviors that allow me to meaningfully make progress.

That is still only answering half of my question. So to clarify the other half:

BOTcommander said:
This plan will lead to great things, trust me

Why are you insider gaming? As the maker of SCED Quest why are you using your position of power to direct that same quest while you are in study jail by making a vote for it?

BOTcommander · May 8, 2022

Dmol8 said:
Why are you insider gaming? As the maker of SCED Quest why are you using your position of power to direct that same quest while you are in study jail by making a vote for it?

I made and voted for a plan, because I wanted to support the efforts Sunrise as no one else had made a plan at that point. If people want to vote differently they are free to do so.

Dmol8 · May 8, 2022

BOTcommander said:
I made and voted for a plan, because I wanted to support the efforts Sunrise as no one else had made a plan at that point. If people want to vote differently they are free to do so.

Oh. You were passing the baton. Fair enough. SCED Quest is the sort of story where that can work.

sunrise · May 8, 2022

WIth 12 votes for a single plan and 24 hours of voting i am closing the SCED quest voting

Adhoc vote count started by sunrise on May 8, 2022 at 10:01 AM, finished with 69 posts and 12 votes.

12 people have voted
[X]Plan Lads we sail out into the lightless void
-[X]New Johnson Training Center (Stage 6: Last Stage) 1D 25C
-[X]Enterprise Orbital Assembler (Phase 1 of 4) 80IP
-[X]Craterscope Foundations (Phase 1) 40C 40IP
-[X]Pathfinder Landing Dock (Phase 1) 12C 12IP
-[X]Mars Gate Station 1 Free Part 13 Pathfinder Days
-[X]Grav Plate Rover Integration 38/250 (8C/Die+8IP/Die) 3D 24C 24IP
-[X]Leopard Mk II Civilian Transport Development 1D 6C 6IP
-[X]Leopard Mk II VIP Transport Development 1D 6C 6IP
-[X]Craterscope Mirror System Development 2D 8C 2IP
-[X]Charon (Requires one Die) 1D
-[X]Venus Aerostat Station 204/300 2D
-[X]Halley's comet (Requires one Die with no roll) 1D
-[X]Surface Scan - Ganymede 5 Pathfinder Days
-[X]Surface Scan - Io 5 Pathfinder Days
-[X][]Observation Probes - Minor Moons + Rings 5 Pathfinder Days
- BOTcommander
- Derpmind
- Redhead222
- Crazy7s1
- Lightwhispers
- Voidseer
- Oleg-14191
- F0lkL0re
- Vista
- Rakuhn
- Ace of Scarabs
- tenchifew

BOTcommander · May 8, 2022

SCEDQuest Mathpost (May not be accurate)

New Johnson 419+/400
Enterprise Assembler 83/100 IP
Craterscope Foundations 10/10 Foundation Parts
Pathfinder Landing Dock (Phase 1) 3/3 Foundation Parts
Pathfinder Landing Dock (Phase 2) 111/65
Mars Gate Station 3/5 Station Parts
Grav Plate Rover 263+/250
Leopard Mk II Civilian Transport 41/100
Leopard Mk II VIP Transport 198/175
Craterscope Mirror System 378/400
Aerostat 300+/300

Ithillid · May 8, 2022

So, I have been getting questions both here and on the discord about the Lancer and what it is supposed to do. And the answer is a bit complicated. Because the lancer serves in multiple roles. To begin with, it is starting the path down towards infantry energy weapons. Beyond that, it is also an expansion of what the zone troopers can do.
On the immediate tactical level, the Lancer is intended to be a high endurance supplement and replacement for missile teams. An accurate and powerful means of telling an armored fighting vehicle that, well, "we don't like your kind here"

More broadly, the Zonification project is by far the most expensive project Ground Forces is likely to ever give you. And that is because they are not simply "infantry but better" but instead a fundamental redesign of what infantry can do. Yes, they are still intended to screen armor, but they are also intended to maraud on their own, to pressure the enemy in independent offensive operations, and fight in high intensity close quarters battle. While they might well not be able to produce the same kind of elemental shock that Battletech showed, they fight fundamentally differently than foot infantry does for most of the zone troopers. More mobile, more agile, less constrained by weight.

sunrise · May 8, 2022

New Johnson Training Center 369+50 = 419/400
Enterprise Assembler 83/100 IP
Craterscope Foundations 10/10 Foundation Parts
Pathfinder Landing Dock (Phase 1) 3/3 Foundation Parts
Pathfinder Landing Dock (Phase 2) 111/65
Mars Gate Station 3/5 Station Parts
Grav Plate Rover 38+225+60=323/250
Leopard Mk II Civilian Transport 21+20=41/100
Leopard Mk II VIP Transport 132+46+20=198/175
Craterscope Mirror System 249+89+40= 378
Aerostat 204+ 175+10= 385

Got the same numbers as BOTcommander, looks like the new VIP shuttle is ready to go as are rovers with grav plates.

MightbeaMimic · May 8, 2022

One thing worth noting with the Zone Armour projects is that I think Drones and Rockets will have fairly hefty synergy. It gives you a way of locating and accurately striking an opponent before they even see you, an infantryman's dream capability.

Even better, it's entirely organic on a squad/platoon level, meaning it can be used quickly in response to targets of opportunity

As for the Lancer project, I think it being a 'high endurance supplement' is something ground forces can very much get use out of, considering they're more likely to end up fighting the long endurance brawls than ZOCOM is

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Mechanoid Pilot

The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web

The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web

Altman be praised

The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web

The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web