Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Revised Chicago would also have sucked up our Infra dice while we're in crunch mode and don't have much to spare.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
I'm not seeing that. With Infra and HI dice available for it, and only needing Apartments, I see no crunch.
If the "Crunch" is non-plan things:
Only slightly crispy. Nothing I'd consider crunchy.
And I forgot to say earlier that this is really cute. Everyone loves Erewhon. XD
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
How? We only had like eight dice of true Infrastructure commitments, and we could have (could still) build Chicago Phase 4 with Heavy Industry dice.
I suspect that a Chicago-Enterprise-Anadyr strategy for getting those last +11 Capital Goods would have been viable, if we'd chosen to pursue it. We decided we'd rather have the extra wiggle room, I guess.
- Location
- MSC
Is there any point in doing reconstructions in HI?
Or they will be covered by reconstruction fund Treasury opened?
Or they will be covered by reconstruction fund Treasury opened?
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I was holding the Infrastructure dice to see if I had enough Resources to cover my other commitments, so as there were enough Resources I'd amend my plan to allocate all 6 dice to the Blue Zone Apartments. I've got enough Resources, so I'll do that as right now our Logistics are at +25 which is one heck of a surplus, so we can ease that for a turn or two.
Doesn't Yellow Zone Harvesting expand the area we have to defend?
The reason I chose to put a dice into Orbital Cleanup is that it opens up Orbital Power Stations, and eventually we're going to hit diminishing returns with the Fusion Plants - it's why we have the Liquid Tiberium Power Cell Deployment as an option. With 1 dice spent on Orbital Cleanup we can get Orbital Power Stations if Fusion Plants become more expensive and we don't want to have to pay the PS price for Liquid Tiberium Power Cells.
According to the probability array 3 dice only gives a 54% chance of completion while 4 dice gives a 94$, so it's underinvesting rather than over investing.
What other options would count towards our mining goal? I'm guessing Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting might be an option but what about Lunar Regolith? Would that count towards the phases of Space Mines required?
Everyone on the thread is saying the Regency War will be over in the next turn or two as GDI backs off, so the Firehawk wingmen are a lesser priority for now. You say that the frigate and carrier yards are not a plan commitment, and that's true.
But Karachi is a plan commitment.
Any chance we had to succeed at Karachi was shanked through the ribs and left by the side of the road when our navy was neglected, suffered more losses during the Regency War and then NOD went into naval raiding. We cannot succeed in an operation against India without a strong navy, which means we need to get building as much as possible. As @One Autumn Leaf 's post earlier in the thread pointed out, and as I mentioned in my original plan, warships are long-lead items - they take a long time to build compared to fighters and tanks. IRL the average time from ordering an Arleigh Burke class destroyer (all funds allocated, all bureaucracy cleared) to commissioning is five years. The light aircraft carrier HMS Invincible which saw combat in the Falklands War of 1982 (probably the closest equivalent to a modern CVE) was ordered in April 1973, commissioned in July 1980 and declared operational in June 1981 - seven years to be completed plus another year of working up to be fully operational.
If this was the real world and the Indian invasion depended on new-construction ships being operational and ready to participate within five years, like at the end of next plan, then GDI's admirals would say 'This cannot be done.' End of story, all over red rover.
Hopefully the advanced construction tech GDI has access to in this quest lets us accelerate ship construction by quite a lot, even though as they are much more advanced than modern ships they would normally take longer to build. But we need to get those shipyards built as soon as possible so we can get as many ships as possible built in time for the Karachi operation.
We dropped the ball and we were given a second chance. We can't risk dropping it again because it's really unlikely we'll get a third chance.
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- Location
- Wall Gazing
Revised Chicago (assuming no change in progress requirements) would have needed 21 dice to finish both Phase 4 and 5. Thats a big ask when we already have things we want to do in Infrastructure such as finishing off the current phase of Fortresses and Rail to secure of new territory and the Infrastructure project of BZ apartments. (Total: 21+2+4+6=33 dice). Plus, we don't know exactly how much Cap Goods Phase 4 and 5 would give us, it didn't seem a good idea to me to commit to Chicago for this plan. The last Phase of Chicago is what would make this whole situation as crunchy as Agriculture and Orbital. Without that commitment it is a lot less so.
- Location
- The Underdark
Most Erewhon things are supposed to be pretty aggressively cute. Mostly because I find it funny and because it feels right in the context of humanity being willing to packbond with anything.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
This totally misses that it is also a HI project. We would have had no other commitments in that category...
Our new commitments in HI still leave 10 dice available for Chicago. Would have been 19 spare dice if we hadn't promised Anadyr and Laser Cutters.
- Location
- USA
We also need to do power to keep everything running and for covering new projects we take beyond those of plan targets. And pushing out new HI projects that develop and advance our capabilities beyond just adding to number. Nuuk does that, Anadyr does that, we have the prototype hover factory to explore that tech, we also want to do North Boston Phase 5 at some point. Simply because we do not have plan goals eating all the dice in a category does not mean we have free dice in it. HI and Mil are great examples of that.
Not every project that should be done is part of our plan goals so just looking at plan requirements and saying oh we have room is not a good idea.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
And when exactly did I do that?
I've been using doruma's numbers here.
This post gives a breakdown of potential Infrastructure dice usage for the rest of the Plan. It allocates 7 dice to Chicago, along with another phase of a bunch of non-plan things.
This post gives a breakdown of remaining commitments for HI, including the production of 32 more Energy. It leaves 10 available, which would have been 19 if we had not changed our commitments.
Chicago 4+5 is vaguely 22-23 dice needed, which would still have left a few dice for extra HI projects.
And that is totally ignoring the rather large amount of free dice that could be shifted around to support a Chicago based plan, since no other plan target actually needs free dice either.
Even with the new HI commitments, we could still complete Chicago 5 this Plan. It would only need us to allocate 1 Free Dice per turn to Infra, which would give us 5(Free)+7(Infra)+10(HI) = 22 dice.
We have enough wiggle room here for a (small) dance party, which is why I said I was surprised that the final votes did not appear to have considered the Chicago option for completing the Capitol Goods commitment.
Sort of yes and no. In normal times yellow zone harvesting means a military advance so we can expand our harvesting area. Right now however, the military has already pushed out ahead of the harvesters.
IIRC it's about 2 years for the carriers and around 1 for the frigates
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
As a matter of fact, we do already know roughly how long the ships will take. See below:
I think a more detailed timeline also got posted but I can't find it right now.
Edit: here it is, you'll have to scroll up a bit to find uju's post though.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The way I figure it, a half-finished phase in practice means we haven't got the harvesting operations set up, but doesn't mean GDI hasn't taken the ground anyway, just that we're not extracting resources from it. I mean, we've reconquered the entire east Australian Yellow Zone. That's not gonna get undone just because we haven't pushed our bases farther forward. Maybe in peacetime it'd mean expanding the border, but in this case I'm pretty sure cause and effect are the other way around, which is why setting up tons of little forward harvesting bases supports an offensive but isn't responsible directly for converting Yellow Zones to Green.
That's my take, anyway.
You're getting a few things backwards.
First, the reason we have liquid tiberium power plants is because we researched them independently a while ago. We'd have that option even if we'd never developed fusion reactors at all. It's not "because fusion will eventually hit diminishing returns." Why would fusion hit diminishing returns? Setting up X gigawatt reactors provides X gigawatts. It's basic math. Nothing we've seen so far suggests we're going to run out of places to put fusion reactors any time soon; if anything fusion actions will become MORE efficient soon if Bergen makes the plants cheaper to build or easier to scale up in output.
Furthermore, even if you're right, it won't be happening right now, so it's not an immediate emergency that justifies diversion of effort from the Orbital commitments we already have. there'll be plenty of time to finish orbital cleanup in 2062Q1 when we're not wasting dice on an imminent Plan commitment.
It's not underinvesting in a project to give yourself 'only' a 50/50 chance of success. Remember, there is no penalty for slow completion except not getting the output of the mines, whereas there IS a penalty for us not finishing our projects by the end of the Plan- we have to frantically use Free dice at the last minute and pray, or if unlucky, we get in trouble.
Either Lunar Regolith or Lunar Rares would qualify, to answer your question. So, importantly, does Enterprise, which is a dice sink capable of taking as much as we like.
We've been explicitly told that the build times for GDI warships of the classes we're interested in are 1-2 years. Historically, we started to see Governor-class cruisers in action about 1-2 years of game time after we built the first shipyard for them, too.
Also, air combat won't disappear the moment the Steel Vanguard offensives drop off. Nod isn't going to agree that the war's over immediately, so there will still be fighting and it will still be relevant; we will continue to take air casualties in 2061 just as we were taking them in 2059. Therefore, there is still considerable urgency about getting the drones ready.
I'll be surprised, unpleasantly so, if Chicago Phase 4 is good for less than +6 Capital Goods and I'm guessing +8, but you do have a point.
- Location
- USA
The second post is plan only goals- so it does not count us doing non plan goals such as Shark yards and Wingman drones, nor does it include the HI dice to cover the power for those actions. On the first note that with semi-required (non plan) it uses all the infra dice for the remaining plan and only hits Chicago 4 not 5.
And we don't have a lot of free dice flex if we want to get our mil ready for Karachi, unless we want to cut back there and cut back on the HI actions that improve our capabilities beyond just giving cap good. So for me at least I did not vote for chicago since that would tie up too many dice that we could use to improve GDI elsewhere
Strictly speaking, we didn't independently research Liquid Tiberium Generators. They'd be significantly less productive, and less safe, than our current versions if we had started from scratch.
Liquid Tiberium Generators is the second highest tech (after Modern Nod Lasers) that we have received from the Nod gacha. We have a few other techs (such as T-Glass) that have further improved them. Their biggest downside is their unpopularity. But the first phase of them (which will start developing the technology for further safety improvements in the background) costs us 5 PS. Compared to 10 PS on Merchantmen Conversions, or 20 PS on Emergency Electronic Resources Allocations, that really isn't that unpopular at all.
I think that we should seriously consider putting a die towards them in the coming turn if we go for Inderdepartmental Favors simultaneously.
Liquid Tiberium Generators is the second highest tech (after Modern Nod Lasers) that we have received from the Nod gacha. We have a few other techs (such as T-Glass) that have further improved them. Their biggest downside is their unpopularity. But the first phase of them (which will start developing the technology for further safety improvements in the background) costs us 5 PS. Compared to 10 PS on Merchantmen Conversions, or 20 PS on Emergency Electronic Resources Allocations, that really isn't that unpopular at all.
I think that we should seriously consider putting a die towards them in the coming turn if we go for Inderdepartmental Favors simultaneously.
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- Location
- ?????????
So discussing this in discord but I am going to bring it a bit here. I'd like to make the argument that we should be investing, at least minimally, in Navy at all times. I understand that we all have our projects but hear me out. Because of the long wait times naval procurement can't work the same way as other types of military investment. For example we can churn out 4 Jet factories in a series of turns if we need it because those Jets will arrive in at most 2 turns or 6 months. Same with military vehicles, guns etc. Naval projects(that aren't refits) come in large batches at a time over a long period of time.
Take the Escort Carrier which will take 18 months(I believe) and make 20 ships. The issue is that we have a procurement strategy of "Dump money into finish a singular project to finish it and get the results". It works for other projects but that does not work for the Navy. Hence why I'd like to suggest that in the future, even after this mass investment, that we continue to invest one, maybe even two dice at all times into the navy. This strategy above also has the added bonus of reducing ship building times because as our builders get more experience building the ship it takes less time for it to new ships of that model to be built(QM has said this).
We can't crisis build a Navy. Naval investment has to be over a period of time because of its long wait times. Slow, steady, constant investment is the only way to build a powerful navy.
Take the Escort Carrier which will take 18 months(I believe) and make 20 ships. The issue is that we have a procurement strategy of "Dump money into finish a singular project to finish it and get the results". It works for other projects but that does not work for the Navy. Hence why I'd like to suggest that in the future, even after this mass investment, that we continue to invest one, maybe even two dice at all times into the navy. This strategy above also has the added bonus of reducing ship building times because as our builders get more experience building the ship it takes less time for it to new ships of that model to be built(QM has said this).
We can't crisis build a Navy. Naval investment has to be over a period of time because of its long wait times. Slow, steady, constant investment is the only way to build a powerful navy.
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- Location
- USA
I can get behind a die or two a turn on naval spending once we get the sharks and carrier yards finished. It will keep constant movement on naval as mentioned to let us build up units over time. Also means we can get naval rolled out without overspending dice on it which will be nice as long run that means more dice for the other fields.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
Ok, so, there are a bunch of interacting parts for our previous and current goals with respect to the Capital Goods and Chicago. I didn't, and still don't, think replacing an 11 die project (Karachi) with a 21 die project (Chicago) was a good idea, but I admit I haven't done a full breakdown of what the relative costs would be.
To that end, let's assume Chicago Phase 4 and 5 will give us 11+ Capital Goods, this is not unreasonable given Karachi Phase 4 and 5 gives 14 Logistics (6 and 8 respectively). This means we do not need Nuuk, and since we are not replacing the Capital Goods goal with Anadyr and Lasers we don't need them either.
We do still need Energy for the Carrier shipyards and other expenditures, including Chicago which currently costs 4.
-Energy: 15 current, 4 in reserve
--4 Required by Chicago
--1 Required by Chemical Fertilizer Plants
--2 Required by Civilian Drone Factories
--2 Required by Vertical Farming Projects
--1 Required by Freeze Dried Food Plants
--4 Required by Tiberium Processing Plants
--2 Required by URLS
--5 Required by Escort Carrier Shipyards (New York)
--5 Required by Escort Carrier Shipyards (Dublin)
--5 Required by Escort Carrier Shipyards (Nagoya)
--4? Required by Mastodon Deployment
--32 Provided by Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants
--Net: 12 Energy
--4 Required by Chicago
--1 Required by Chemical Fertilizer Plants
--2 Required by Civilian Drone Factories
--2 Required by Vertical Farming Projects
--1 Required by Freeze Dried Food Plants
--4 Required by Tiberium Processing Plants
--2 Required by URLS
--5 Required by Escort Carrier Shipyards (New York)
--5 Required by Escort Carrier Shipyards (Dublin)
--5 Required by Escort Carrier Shipyards (Nagoya)
--4? Required by Mastodon Deployment
--32 Provided by Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants
--Net: 12 Energy
We will also assume we are replacing the Arcologies with Apartments as the latter has a lesser die cost.
So bare minimum we have:
Infrastructure:
-BZ Apartments: ~6 dice
-Chicago Phase 4-5: ~21 dice
Total: 27, 3 spare
Heavy Industry:
-Fusion Phase 7-8: ~6 dice, 19 spare
So we would be in a crunch with Infrastructure, but we could off load some of that to Heavy Industry. However this doesn't take into account things we need that aren't plan goals. In military we need the Firehawk wingmen and the Firgate yards, thats another phase of Fusion. We also need the next phase of Fortresses and Rail to secure our territory.
So for semi-required we have:
Infrastructure:
-YZ Fortresses: ~2 dice
-BZ Apartments: ~6 dice
-Rail: ~4 dice
-Chicago Phase 4-5: ~21 dice total 18 in Infrastructure, 3 to Heavy Industry
Total: 30, 0 spare
Heavy Industry:
-Fusion Phase 7-9: ~10 dice
-Chicago Phase 4-5: 3 dice
Total: 13, 12 spare
Comparatively, our current semi-required:
Infrastructure:
-YZ Fortresses: ~2 dice
-BZ Apartments: ~6 dice
-Rail: ~4 dice
Total: 12, 18 spare
Heavy Industry:
-Fusion Phase 7-9: ~10 dice
-Anadyr: ~4 dice
-Industrial Lasers Development: ~1 die
-Industrial Lasers Deployment: ~4? dice
Total: 19, 6 spare
A twelve spare dice difference between the two.
Now this is the point where we move to matters of opinion. Personally, I think getting the really R expensive projects like Anadyr done before reallocation is a good move. If we do not finish it before that point we will delay it significantly and to me that project is worth more then completing Chicago. Not only is there this delay, but also Anadyr provides the Isolinear chips for future AI projects and for Erewhon. Its something we would want to do anyway for those reasons, so what is the downside of making it a plan goal.
I agree. As I've said previously, once the Frigate and Carrier yards are complete we should immediately put a die into the Victory Class Development for the purposes of getting a modern, dedicated, Amphibious Assault ship which will be very useful with Karachi and elsewhere (Cuba and other Caribbean Islands, Hawaii, Sri Lanka etc.). That seems to me to be the next big thing in Navy we will need after the current crop of shipyards is complete. To that end we should immediately develop it and then start production with the goal of finishing a yard before the end of the Plan.
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Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm gonna be honest, I was extremely tired when I wrote that and I have no idea what i was thinking.
RZ Containment Lines reinforce the existing lines, which are mostly on YZ-RZ borders relatively far away from NOD areas of strength. We've already done several phases of them.
RZ Border Offensives will be operating from GDI-controlled Green Zone territory that directly border Red Zone territory, and so both will probably slightly expand our territory out of Red Zones, and also enable what have been described as "super-glacier mines". No word on exactly what they will give, other than lots of income.