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Eike is currently a Shallyan, but a) Eike is not a cleric or otherwise sworn to that specific goddess, b) joining a mostly secular order and otherwise also capable of going the polytheist route that most Imperials actually do and c) twelve years old with none of her religious beliefs set in stone.

Sure, it doesn't NECESSARILY have to be Shallaya but we do know that having a god in your corner is a HUGE advantage for a wizard (and in general).

And as a Grey Wizard and future head of the EIC, Eike is bound to be able to help Shallaya and conciliate her duties. Just as we did with Ranald (who also has scriptures against killing).

For exemple, she could try to reform Pirates caught by the anti-piracy forces or use charitable / medical sub-organisations to get a pulse on the slums and villages for signs of cultists. And there are plenty of ways to take down non-lethally anyway.
 
Out of curiosity @BoneyM, given you're around- did the event where a Gold Wizard summoned Karanak in 2460 IC to kill his rivals but lost control, leading to Karanak killing everyone in the college building- occur in-quest to the best of Mathilde's knowledge?
 
Eike had not seen Mathilde's sword, has she?

I'm wondering, because an apprentice/heir to inherit our towers and treasures and sword and secrets is what we seen to be trending towards.

(I kinda hope we have a kid with Pan? There was mention of 'from mother to daughter' as a thing in her family, so I'd imagine her mother is pushing it, and a younger niece for Eike and an apprentice for Pan would round out a little magical family coven quite nicely.)

And all of this discussion about Eike and combat had me thinking about teaching her our sword style. It is a unique mix of imperial and order of guardians, with some brettonian flourishes, even before we add in the Moonlit Wit and I think it would be cool to pass on.

If I may, the biggest difference we can do for Eike when it comes to her survival as a Journeyman is to teach her how to fight, and being an example for her. While the average Gray Journeyman has some skills in sneaking about, it would seem that they aren't taught to fight at all.

I kinda agree with this, but I'd say knowing how to run and magic dart + aethyric armor is the best grounding. We can and should teach her Bhranarlhune but I don't think it is more important than magic.

Nay, our apprentice must surpass us.

Put her on Luitpold's council.

Or Thorgrim's. Either works.

Let's see if we can't get her trained up and vetted, and send her to be one of Mandred's bodyguard companions when the young crown prince starts having adventures and making a name for himself.

I think Heidi and Wilhelmina would probably both approve of that as a journey.
 
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Out of curiosity @BoneyM, given you're around- did the event where a Gold Wizard summoned Karanak in 2460 IC to kill his rivals but lost control, leading to Karanak killing everyone in the college building- occur in-quest to the best of Mathilde's knowledge?

Mathilde has never heard about it, but that's the sort of thing that any Order would keep very quiet indeed.

Eike had not seen Mathilde's sword, has she?

I don't believe so.
 
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Sure, it doesn't NECESSARILY have to be Shallaya but we do know that having a god in your corner is a HUGE advantage for a wizard (and in general).

I wouldn't reach for comparisons to Mathilde's situation- damn near everyone in the Empire favors a god, but its very rare that the god in turn favors them.

Mathilde, as I recall, started this quest with Piety as her highest stat, and then went above and beyond to cultivate her relationship with Ranald further- from flipping a coin to decide where she would live to the divine heist. She's considered him her closest friend since she was a junior apprentice and lacked for any other companionship excepting a cat.

(And, it should probably be noted, some astonishingly good rolls regarding Ranald from the start.)

Its certainly possible that Eike winds up with a comparable relationship to her god, but its not something to be expected or planned around. Its also not something that can really be taught- everyone is gonna have their own personal relationship with their god, and Mathilde's is unique and built on unique circumstances.

We also just have no idea if Eike wants that kind of thing. Mathilde is weird for having her chosen god be such a central part of her, especially among the Grey Order.

I'd just leave the situation be and let come what may- its not the kind of thing we can or should interfere in, I think.
 
It also occurs to me that if we eventually give Eike Branulhune, she will be walking around without carrying any weapons.
 
That God is Slaanesh, a being vastly more powerful and more violent than the Dove of Peace. Yet there are no pink lightning bolts killing us because of course gods can't do that, they cannot act of their ow power outside of very specific circumstances.
Well, no God since the Nehekharan ones anyway, and Nagash showed everyone exactly why you do not overextend into the mortal world, because that shit can get you erased.
 
Well, no God since the Nehekharan ones anyway, and Nagash showed everyone exactly why you do not overextend into the mortal world, because that shit can get you erased.
They're still around, though almost certainly reduced.

There's this one bit mentioned in the 8th edition TK book that talks about a crater in Nehekhara where two TK armies battle eternally after the gods cursed them to.

And the cursing happened after Nagash did his half-ritual that created the Tomb Kings.
 
(And, it should probably be noted, some astonishingly good rolls regarding Ranald from the start.)
Indeed, from quite literally the first recorded roll:
In honour of your patron god, I will roll a 1d2. On a 1, the debt is to the college; on a 2, it is to Ranald.

Edit: And there you have it. I'll edit the preceding post accordingly.
I have always thought that starting off in debt to Ranald (instead of the College) would have set the relationship off on a very different footing, no matter the Piety score.
 
Indeed, from quite literally the first recorded roll:

I have always thought that starting off in debt to Ranald (instead of the College) would have set the relationship off on a very different footing, no matter the Piety score.
When Mathilde had the chance to beg for luck, or to disregard the importance of money, she picked the latter and kept Ranald's respect.
 
Just had an idea when thinking about the whole apprentice situation and what we might teach one. @BoneyM does the Liber Mortis have a version of this spell in it:


I ask because though it is lesser magic (so technically open to all mages) it is from Night's Dark Masters and thus more prevalent among necromancers. If we could adapt it to work with Ulgu it would give apprentice Grey wizards a slightly better offensive option than simple Magic Missile.
 
Lesser Magic still uses a specific Wind, it's just dealing with concepts so general that any Wind can create similar effects.

Shadowblood is absolutely using Dhar.
 
Lesser Magic still uses a specific Wind, it's just dealing with concepts so general that any Wind can create similar effects.

Shadowblood is absolutely using Dhar.

Sure, but what makes lesser magic different than the outright Lore of Dark Magic is that it uses a small enough amount of a wind that you can adapt it to other winds. It would not be the first time we did that. Look at the Matrix.
 
Sure, but what makes lesser magic different than the outright Lore of Dark Magic is that it uses a small enough amount of a wind that you can adapt it to other winds. It would not be the first time we did that. Look at the Matrix.

Let me rephrase that then.

Shadowblood literally operates on blood sacrifice--Dhar's thematics, you're advocating studying a spell in one of the biggest books of Black Magic ever written (For all that it isn't cursed to be a memetic hazard)--a spell with impressive destructive power, which is again, Dhar's thematics.

Most importantly, anyone who learns this spell is going to learn it through the paradigm of Dark Magic (Note: You can only have one Magical Lore as written in the same edition you're quoting from here, so learning how to cast Shadowblood 'As intended' locks her out of the normal Arcane Lores).

It's Lesser Magic only in difficulty to cast--in literally every other respect it's straight up Black Magic--just very easy to use Black Magic that even an apprentice can employ. Don't try Rules Lawyering it as "But it's listed as Lesser Magic so any Wizard should have their own version!"

We did, in fact, establish earlier with the MAP that just because a spell is simple doesn't mean it can be made universal for all Colors--we just lucked out and had a very smart Wizard Lord take an interest in it and developed an even more simplified version that could be ported based on Mathilde's submission.
 
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Sure, but what makes lesser magic different than the outright Lore of Dark Magic is that it uses a small enough amount of a wind that you can adapt it to other winds. It would not be the first time we did that. Look at the Matrix.
I think what you're asking is can we have the option of "Study your necromancy spells to figure out if some insight from one of them can be used to make new Ulgu spells" and that runs face first into the wall called :

7. No Magister may ever study the Forbidden Lores of the Daemonic Powers, nor the unholy ways of Necromancy, nor any other sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic. Any Magister found disregarding this Article is guilty of an Abominable Act and is both Heretic and Traitor and will be put to sword and fire immediately.

The Matrix study got around that by studying Dhar, not the spell that cast it. IE, if you can find and spy on a necromancer casting those spells, you can try to figure out a useful Ulgu adaptation from studying the consequences of the spells. But you do not get to study Dark Magic itself. That's a one way ticket to fires, burning and beheading.

We can Study Dhar(not that we need to at this point) but Dark Magic is verboten.
 
Let me rephrase that then.

Shadowblood literally operates on blood sacrifice--Dhar's thematics, you're advocating studying a spell in one of the biggest books of Black Magic ever written (For all that it isn't cursed to be a memetic hazard)--a spell with impressive destructive power, which is again, Dhar's thematics.

Most importantly, anyone who learns this spell is going to learn it through the paradigm of Dark Magic (Note: You can only have one Magical Lore as written in the same edition you're quoting from here, so learning how to cast Shadowblood 'As intended' locks her out of the normal Arcane Lores).

It's Lesser Magic only in difficulty to cast--in literally every other respect it's straight up Black Magic--just very easy to use Black Magic that even an apprentice can employ. Don't try Rules Lawyering it as "But it's listed as Lesser Magic so any Wizard should have their own version!"

We did, in fact, establish earlier with the MAP that just because a spell is simple doesn't mean it can be made universal for all Colors--we just lucked out and had a very smart Wizard Lord take an interest in it and developed an even more simplified version that could be ported based on Mathilde's submission.

It operates on the sacrifice of your own blood, which is subtly different from using someone else's since it is self-sacrifice so it might be salvageable. Also note I did not just assume it could be reverse-engineered I asked the GM.
 
Just had an idea when thinking about the whole apprentice situation and what we might teach one. @BoneyM does the Liber Mortis have a version of this spell in it:


I ask because though it is lesser magic (so technically open to all mages) it is from Night's Dark Masters and thus more prevalent among necromancers. If we could adapt it to work with Ulgu it would give apprentice Grey wizards a slightly better offensive option than simple Magic Missile.
Lesser by Dhar standards is not lesser by Wind standards. There is no adapting it to a College compatible lesser magic.
 
Qhaysh is soft power.

Just, you know. The "we have nukes" sort of soft power.
As a political science major, that is NOT what soft power means. What you describe is what is colloquially known as gunboat diplomacy.

Soft power is subtly affecting the amicability of other countries (usually via art affecting the culture, e.g. Hollywood, but any non coercive method is technically soft power) so that they become more amenable to your way of doing things.

Using threats, even soft and understated threats, even threats you do not bring to the table for moral reason but which are nevertheless known to others can never be considered soft power because it is inherently coercive.

For what it's worth, and to expand on my thinking I'm theorizing that Qhaysh is soft power in the philosophy of wielding it, rather than the result of any given spell. Though I do think hold that any kind of magic user would tend to naturally, though not inevitably, produce results colored by the philosophy of that magic. For simple reason that you may not just have a hammer in your mental toolkit, but you do very definitely have a hammer, and are quite good with it to boot.

But to really get started, I since putting Qhaysh in opposition to that "Dhar as Hard Power/Coercion/Force" is the hallmark of this. Since we we don't exactly see BoneyM's personal interpretation High Magic directly in this quest much, but we have seen quite a bit of Dhar, and this theory is based on the idea of there being a duality there.

So... Dhar:

Hard power is quick, it's easy to conceptualize how to use it, and it gets immediate results, but it has a cost. Much as how we see Dhar portrayed. Hold a spear to someone's throat and they'll probably do what you want and fast, but only for so long as that spear remains at their throat, and their resulting opinion of you, as well as anything they try to do afterwords, will be distinctly colored by how you went about influencing them.

More than that, it's also cyclical. If you get your power from holding the use of force over people's heads you're going to have much more need to do so in the future. Spiraling down until something, inevitably, breaks. Looked at that way, of course someone who had that kind of philosophy shoved into their soul a bit at a time would slowly turn to violence, deceit, megalomania, and so on as their primary answer to everything.

It even follows when it comes to advanced use, where we read the Libre Mortis and saw how it talked about how it's possible to make something more stable. If you can patiently weave the system to restrain itself, to perpetually coerce itself per the theory, you can get much more lasting results. Likewise, we do see that you get systems of coercion and abuse that perpetuate themselves like that even in real life, often taking the form of hierarchies, though concrete examples are probably a bit too politically charged for this discussion.

Qhyash, meanwhile...

By contrast, soft power often takes decades to take proper effect, you are basically committing to changing people's minds or dealing with them as they are without taking any shortcuts after all, but once it does those effects are proportionally longer lasting. Compare High Magic taking decades or centuries to learn properly, but being extremely potent once it has finally been learned.

For an example of what we have seen of high magic is Waystones, and BoneyM's take on Waystones seem to me like a in universe example of soft power: Everyone who has a waystone on the network benefits, but they benefit the most from theirs. Similarly, if one is damaged, the whole world suffers, but the one who lost, and those in close proximity to them, suffer most.

The interests off all involved are, at least in principle, aligned to look out for themselves and each other alike. It's not always sufficient to override everything else, see the War of the Ancients, but in principle those who have the network have a vested interest in seeing it maintained and grow, and making allies to help do so. Even when there's an update that has folks saying "Of course Ulthuan is using all that magic for something, they'd be stupid not to," there's also the unspoken "Yeah, and we benefit too, so that's okay."

You can see the logic that must have been at play both in the elves paying the dwarves in their own sub-network and in how that network must have gone up in dwarven internal politics alike: The elves must have felt that the addition would only add to the potency of the greater network, even if it empowered the dwarves more than it did themselves, and perhaps some of the more charitable of them felt that the dwarven network might also add resiliency as well if anything ever happened to Ulthuan.

Likewise, assuming it was not as secret as it is now to begin with, the Runesmith clan of each dwarven hold understands that they're getting a method to clear the area around them of the winds of magic. With the ancestor works involved, perhaps those that set up the hold waystones also thought to benefit by asking for a give and take in what those waystones would power, in exchange for their work in installing them. Certainly I would expect a debate like that if both news got out and we started doing things like installing a waystone in Karak Hirn.

Importantly, I think we see this dynamic repeated in whatever is going on in Altdorf: The colleges are largely individual, but there's clearly some interaction going on, just from the way it affects the city as a whole. At a guess, I would expect the broad structure of the spell in the city reflects the same philosophy present in the waystone network.

The colleges and their campuses alike are largely independent but they're interconnected feed on one another and so, if one ever came to suffer, it would behoove the others to come to their assistance. Not only out of charity, but because the failure or weakening of the spell/their fellow colleges as institutions would affect them too, even if it affected that one college first and foremost. (And so, likewise, might the ambitious see that the strengthening of their fellow colleges would also serve to strengthen themselves.)

So yeah, All things together, I think we need a lot more encounters with High Magic (and thus text to interrogate) to understand if it really operates by something that can be considered analogous to soft power, but I think there's enough text so far between what little we've seen, the way Dhar seems to work, and in the traditional contrast between the two and the poetry of "harmony vs force" to at least broach the theory to begin with.
 
Thinking from Eike's perspective:
-She is a Shallyan, but not a priest. This means she will TRY to live by the strictures, but is free to reconcile it in her own way with her own practical needs.
--Fortunately for Eike, Grey Magic has a vast array of conflict avoidance and negation methods, she will be able to uphold the spirit of not killing where possible if she tries.

-Eike has been established to have major issues with measuring up. She wants to be useful, for amongst other things, so she's not abandoned like her mother did her. She wants to do things properly, so she's not gotten rid of.
--The Grey College is unlikely to seek to discourage such motives, because as far as motives to be a Grey Wizard is concerned, these are excellent motives.

-Just as Eike's experience of a Jade Wizard is "A Panoramia", her experience of a full fledged Grey Wizard is for now, going to be "A Mathilde". So what does she know about how to Mathilde properly?
--She knows her by legend, bringing justice with a sword to the evil dead.
--She knows her by business, and no doubt as Wilhelmina had made her very aware, Mathilde makes money and lucrative opportunities appear.
--She knows her by the friends she has, and that is royalty in two countries, across three races.
--She knows her by her Order, and that is dead sneaky. She comes and goes without a trace.
--Magic horse go ZOOM.

Fight good, money good, diplomacy good. Dead sneaky.
All that is quite achievable!

She has a headstart in diplomacy and academics, as she's been raised with a mathematics and economics beyond most of her peers. Good way to get into the advanced classes early.
Spell learning wise she should do fine, its pretty hard to top a complete blank slate with keen magesight.

All told she'd probably be a good chunk better off than start-of-story Mathilde if all goes well. A natural fit for the diplomacy/accountant track.
Visual windsight always seemed like the superior one to me. Hopefully Eike won't be stuck with an inferior magesight.

(Yes, yes, every wizard is special and unique. But here out of setting we can make judgements that would pick fights in-setting, right?)
Not necessarily.
What do you use your Windsight for matters a lot here.

Mathilde has Visual Windsight. This is excellent for things like searching for enemies through walls or cutting through the chaos of battle. It is adequate for magic relating to physical, tangible manifestations of a Wind(i.e. most forms of Elemental Magic). It is very good for using magic under stress, as the visual mapping does not interact significantly with decisionmaking.
It is quite inferior for things like working with the Mystical aspects of the Wind, because Mathilde has to figure out what each shade and pattern translates to on a nonlinear chart, and it offers little to no help regarding identifying the right state of mind necessary to perform a spell other than through painstaking experience to form the right associations.
Windherding is an aspect where what Mathilde sees gives her fast but shallow information, she can see one color mix with another color to form black, and she knows exactly where this mixing is happening in physial space, but thats all she can discern when the winds are enclosed and 'panic'.

Emotional Windsight should be a hell lot better with Mystical side because the feedback directly correlates well with the way the magic is used to stretch and deform a metaphor, and it can develop a tremendous amount of nuance...though it does require quite a bit of varied life experience to properly contextualize it all.

Remember, Wind magics are simultaneously metaphor and tangible forces. Engaging with only one side or the other is only superior for the purpose of specific tasks.
....Alright, not knowing enough lore details to argue, I will concede this point.

That said, I think it's still reasonable to state that there's not really any place on Mallus where a chaos cult couldn't spring up amongst your neighbours tomorrow, to give one example.

Even if I were to concede the point of the existence of completely safe areas (now and in future), I will say that if Eike takes over Wilhelmina's share of the EIC, she will most assuredly not qualify as living in one of those areas regardless of her physical location. Her power and importance would make her a target.

At a bare minimum, I would want to see her train to Max/Gretel/Adela levels for self-defense purposes.
Theres a lot of relatively safe places, and many, many people can live in a village and never deal with anything more distressing than a deformed cow.

However, they are also boring as a result and it is unlikely to have fiction written about them.
 
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